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RE: Neocons better STFU and get to work! - 4/1/2007 7:29:12 AM

farglebargle

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"How much do you suppose that might have cost? since "the parties involved" had multiple mansions, complete with gold plated bathrooms, dungeons filled with anything you can imagine and more - in fact, a whole nation of slaves and oil wealth. What would you have suggested in trade?"

Have you seen the pictures of the VIP wing at Walter Reed, vs. what the troops get?

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Sanity)

Post #: 161

RE: Neocons better STFU and get to work! - 4/1/2007 7:32:46 AM

Sinergy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

Good sarcasm has to have a dose of reality behind it.

Bottom line, the war in Iraq was just about the most expensive and brutal way to take care of the problem, assuming you believe there really was a problem. I'm a bit skeptical of that, to be honest. I recall a story told by a person close to me, that quite a few of the Iraqi tanks that were captured, had no fuel. These people couldn't find a can of gas, in Iraq.

So, it may be a quip, but by the same token, we probably could have had bought off all parties involved, had the network of satellites, and cared for all our runaway children out on the streets ... for a third of the price of this somewhat questionable war.

How much do you suppose that might have cost? since "the parties involved" had multiple mansions, complete with gold plated bathrooms, dungeons filled with anything you can imagine and more - in fact, a whole nation of slaves and oil wealth. What would you have suggested in trade?

The United States has people starving in ghettos while Monkeyboy and the like live in expensive mansions and offshore industries for corporate profits. We have borders that a terrorist wearing dayglo and carrying a torch could get through unmolested. We have large companies hiring illegal immigrants to cut their labor costs.

I would rather our government do something about the United States before wandering to the other side of the planet and invading somebody else because they have slaves and oil wealth.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle

(in reply to Sanity)

Post #: 162

RE: Neocons better STFU and get to work! - 4/1/2007 8:06:36 AM

caitlyn

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity
How much do you suppose that might have cost? since "the parties involved" had multiple mansions, complete with gold plated bathrooms, dungeons filled with anything you can imagine and more - in fact, a whole nation of slaves and oil wealth. What would you have suggested in trade?

Iraq wanted sanctions lifted, wanted food, and wanted more dependable American weapons. Iran badly wants replacement parts for the best aircraft they have in their inventory, the American made F-14, and the most numerous tank they have in their inventory, the American M60A1. All things that can't be found in a gold plated bathroom.

(in reply to Sanity)

Post #: 163

RE: Neocons better STFU and get to work! - 4/1/2007 8:09:30 AM

Sanity

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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

Iraq wanted sanctions lifted, wanted food, and wanted more dependable American weapons. Iran badly wants replacement parts for the best aircraft they have in their inventory, the American made F-14, and the most numerous tank they have in their inventory, the American M60A1. All things that can't be found in a gold plated bathroom.

So weapons for madmen and Mullahs then.

Brilliant!

Edited to add

Really, that's not what you give to the dictator and religious fanatics who have everything... France was already giving him everything that oil-for-food scandal money could buy because Jaque didn't care how many innocent Iraqis Saddam tortured, and apparently neither do many here on these message boards.

No, President Bush was breaking with business as usual with tyrants and other assorted radicals, and Liberals don't seem to like that even a little bit. But then again, there is nothing that the President could ever do that would please them, ever.

< Message edited by Sanity -- 4/1/2007 8:21:26 AM >

(in reply to caitlyn)

Post #: 164

RE: Neocons better STFU and get to work! - 4/1/2007 8:19:29 AM

caitlyn

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity
So weapons for madmen and Mullahs then.

Actually, if you think this through before a knee jerk response, you would come to the conclusion that these weapons are of no danger to a military power like the United States. We have more difficulty with guys in pajamas with guns and home-made bombs. If we could just get every insurgent to get inside a T72, the war would be over in a week.

Not to mention that if they really are madmen, as you claim (and I doubt, quite frankly), then they will quickly start fighting each other again.

(in reply to Sanity)

Post #: 165

RE: Neocons better STFU and get to work! - 4/1/2007 8:27:24 AM

Sanity

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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

Not to mention that if they really are madmen, as you claim (and I doubt, quite frankly), then they will quickly start fighting each other again.

If you wouldn't have liked to have found yourself in one of Saddam & Sons' dungeons, then why not. After all, they were perfectly sane and rational people. Just like the Mullahs of Iran are. Right?

And how would you like to trade places with the British sailor woman who they are holding hostage. Especially if no one knew they had her...

(in reply to caitlyn)

Post #: 166

RE: Neocons better STFU and get to work! - 4/1/2007 8:35:04 AM

caitlyn

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Is this the only way some of you people can debate, but making these sort so "how would you like to" comments?

Try history instead. They Byzantines used these tactics effectively for a thousand years, after the Western Empire fell.

Oh, by the way, if you want to see madmen, try being homeless in LA for a while ... just so you know.

(in reply to Sanity)

Post #: 167

RE: Neocons better STFU and get to work! - 4/1/2007 8:45:22 AM

SimplyMichael

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caitlyn,

I agree to the bottom of my soul to your last couple of posts. So why can't we do that still? It is in fact Bush's complete inability to see these things that has prevented us and will continue to prevent us from "winning" or even creating the most marginal level of stability so we can get out.

The solution in Iraq will not come for us out of the barrel of a gun. IF we get someone in the WH who can understand what you just wrote we could perhaps find a face saving exit strategy although I think too long has been spent allowing ethnic rivalries to become blood feuds to do much of anything.

(in reply to caitlyn)

Post #: 168

RE: Neocons better STFU and get to work! - 4/1/2007 8:46:58 AM

mnottertail

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Joined: 11/3/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

Not to mention that if they really are madmen, as you claim (and I doubt, quite frankly), then they will quickly start fighting each other again.

If you wouldn't have liked to have found yourself in one of Saddam & Sons' dungeons, then why not. After all, they were perfectly sane and rational people. Just like the Mullahs of Iran are. Right?

And how would you like to trade places with the British sailor woman who they are holding hostage. Especially if no one knew they had her...

These two statements are patently false conclusions. The Mullahs of Iran may or may not be sane and rational, they are not making jihad over the 15 sailors.
Since everybody knows they have the british sailor woman---well thats just fuckin lame--------
Now, I don't doubt that they are anally raping her 24/7, but since she is navy she is used to that sort of thing.......jesus, get a grip on reality out here folks.

No, mexicans are not talking about you just because you dont understand them.

God Almighty people.

Ron

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to Sanity)

Post #: 169

RE: Neocons better STFU and get to work! - 4/1/2007 8:51:59 AM

SimplyMichael

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Sanity,

Let me take a moment to break into your Fox news inspired bubble world. The UN oil for food program was a small part of Iraq's oil sales. Want to know what the larger portion was? It is hard to find because Bush has censored it whenever he can but as they say, the truth is out there.

The US approved secret and illegal transfers of oil to Jordan and Turkey and even Syria I think. That oil was bought by US companies. We did it to shore up Jordan and to offest the lies Bush Sr. had told Turkey about giving them billions for their support of the first gulf war, which lies probably cost Bush jr. their support in his little fiasco.

Anyway, I won't bother posting a link since you wouldn't follow it and probably wouldn't change your mind unless you saw it on Fox anyway, but a simple google search will turn it up.

(in reply to Sanity)

Post #: 170

RE: Neocons better STFU and get to work! - 4/1/2007 9:06:06 AM

caitlyn

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Joined: 12/22/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael
I agree to the bottom of my soul to your last couple of posts. So why can't we do that still?

We can't do this, because we can't have serious discussion about anything in this country.

To do this, we would have to leave our troops in place, while deals were cut. The right would throw out accusations of supporting terrorists, and the left would start making comments like, "How many Americans in body bags will it take to make you happy?"

Throw in a lie about Hillary Clinton, call the President a Monkey, and discuss the election scandal in Florida, and you have short attention span America ... not fit for public consumption.

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 171

RE: Neocons better STFU and get to work! - 4/1/2007 10:29:34 AM

farglebargle

Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
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quote:

Saddam & Sons' dungeons

American Dungeons are just as bad.

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Sanity)

Post #: 172

RE: Neocons better STFU and get to work! - 4/1/2007 10:43:35 AM

SimplyMichael

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caitlyn,

Here is where we part company. Bush held zero debate about his policies, the first reaction to pressure we have seen was PERHAPS the dumping of Rummy but even that may have simply been an excuse to get rid of someone they wanted to get rid of anyway.

Republican leaders are distancing themselves from Bush, he is a lame duck, not up for reelection, he can do whatever the hell he wants to, there really is nobody stopping him but himself and Cheney.

We need people like you to hold him accountable, to demand action. Instead you want to blame it on the masses who had no input into the war before and don't have much of one now. Look at the Dem leadership, despite the calls from much of their base to bail, they are desperate to make Iraq work. If Bush announced a REAL strategy they would unite behind it, at least behind the scenes which is where the real power is anyway. We were ALL behind going into Afghanistan, and as you love to say, we ARE in Iraq and even I was against bailing out for the very same reasons you list. I have only recently changed my mind because it is clear Bush either is incompetent on a level rarely seen in history or has some other end game than we can see (although if you think it has anything good in it for OUR country, you are on crack) and the ethnic violence has reached a tipping point and it would take some rather brilliant manuvering to make the light at the end of the tunnel turn out to be anything BUT a freight train.

So, bottom line, Bush has acted all along as if he is king, whining that the serfs don't support him is silly. Bush could fix this with a handful of phone calls. He needs to take a page from the Black Prince and offer Syria and Iran land in Scotland and then tell the fucking Scots to either get their shit together or there will get nothing. Either way, you end up with stability and what isn't stable becomes someone elses problem.

(in reply to caitlyn)

Post #: 173

RE: Neocons better STFU and get to work! - 4/1/2007 12:17:20 PM

Real0ne

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Joined: 10/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity
No, President Bush was breaking with business as usual with tyrants and other assorted radicals, and Liberals don't seem to like that even a little bit. But then again, there is nothing that the President could ever do that would please them, ever.

No shit? when did we get rid of the cia?

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

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(in reply to Sanity)

Post #: 174

RE: Neocons better STFU and get to work! - 4/1/2007 12:49:18 PM

caitlyn

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I don't need to hold President Bush accountable. He is already guilty in my mind. Once he is out of office, I think trials are completely appropriate.

Where you lose me, is the notion that holding him accoutable and demanding action, is going to do anything to solve this problem, and bring any troops home. If we started hearings and trials tomorrow, President Bush would be out of office (end of term) before anything happened past deciding who would serve on the committee.

I agree with you, President Bush could solve this with a few phone calls. Considering about 60% of his closest supporters were thrown out in the last election, and public opinion polls are dead set against his strategy and tactics, and he still hasn't gotten the message ... exactly what do you suppose he would think about "the Caitlyn position?"

You know, I would love to call the White House, get President Bush on the phone, and have a detailed discussion concerning Anna Comnena's writings about her father Alexa's use of politics to accomplish goals that cannot be accomplished militarily. All you have to do, is get me the number, ensure the President answers, and ensure that he is willing to listen.

Past that, the only play is to dance with the date you came with. That totally sucks, but at this point, it is what it is.

One thing for sure (at least to me), throwing out accusations, providing disinformation about the intent and capabilities of Iran, passing pork barrel legislations under the heading of a timetable to get out of Iraq, telling the opposition that we will surrender on a particular date, and good old fashioned trenching in ... will solve absolutely nothing.

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 175

RE: Neocons better STFU and get to work! - 4/1/2007 2:24:33 PM

SimplyMichael

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caitlyn,

So you believe Bush is incompetent and agree that he has made a giant mess of Iraq AND don't see any hope for effective change, right?

BUT, am I correct in reading your bit about dancing with the one that brung you that we should just sit by and let Bush continue?

To me, I have given up hope of intelligence out of this administration which is why I have recently and reluctantly said "fuck it" and started arguing to just bring the poor troops home. We aren't going to do anything that will make it any less of a mess than it is today (and if we do as you suggest and don't do anything till '08 almost two years from now it AIN'T gonna be better) and so getting out today or next year doesn't matter, it will still be a giant mess except THIS year a bunch of soldiers are alive that will be DEAD next year.

So I say, bring em home and let the Iraqis kill themselves.

(in reply to caitlyn)

Post #: 176

RE: Neocons better STFU and get to work! - 4/1/2007 5:52:38 PM

Sinergy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Here is where we part company. Bush held zero debate about his policies, the first reaction to pressure we have seen was PERHAPS the dumping of Rummy but even that may have simply been an excuse to get rid of someone they wanted to get rid of anyway.

Rumsfeld was featured a couple of years ago as one of the most interesting men by Esquire.

It was a rather fascinating article. He talked at great length about his method of dealing with people under him who would ask for A to solve problem X, when A didnt solve problem X, and they asked for something more which they assured him would solve the problem. Rumsfeld would then verbally "wire brush" them down to determine how exactly they fucked up, and leave them wallowing in a deep sense of uselessness and incompetence. He would often do this in front of other people.

From a professional (my profession) perspective, this sort of treatment of another is a form of verbal abuse.

I suspect what happened with Rumsfeld is he got "wire brushed" about how badly he fucked up in Iraq, since what he indicated would "fix" the problem never actually worked, and he kept asking for more.

On a related note, I am really happy that Monkeyboy has not actually embarked on a paroxysm of pardons for the Nitwit patrol he brought with him.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 177

RE: Neocons better STFU and get to work! - 4/1/2007 5:54:46 PM

caitlyn

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All I can say, is that when I go to church (this is going to sound really sappy), I pray that President Bush will come to his senses and put an end to this mess. I think I would pay almost any price, to see it so.

Then, I remember the people I know over there ... one in particular. He is over there and I'm not. It's hard to go against his views.

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 178

RE: Neocons better STFU and get to work! - 4/1/2007 7:05:07 PM

Sinergy

Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity
So weapons for madmen and Mullahs then.

Actually, if you think this through before a knee jerk response, you would come to the conclusion that these weapons are of no danger to a military power like the United States. We have more difficulty with guys in pajamas with guns and home-made bombs. If we could just get every insurgent to get inside a T72, the war would be over in a week.

Not to mention that if they really are madmen, as you claim (and I doubt, quite frankly), then they will quickly start fighting each other again.

The United States sells weapons that we have phased out of our military due to upgrades and developments.

Iran may have 30 year old F-14s, but even if they get / make spare parts for them, we never sold them the weapons systems comparable to what we use.

Would not surprise me if we sold them with a Lojack for our Sidewinders. Never know when the government you support today will be the government you want to topple tomorrow.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle

(in reply to caitlyn)

Post #: 179

RE: Neocons better STFU and get to work! - 4/1/2007 7:33:48 PM

caitlyn

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Joined: 12/22/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy
Iran may have 30 year old F-14s, but even if they get / make spare parts for them, we never sold them the weapons systems comparable to what we use.

Believe it or not, we actually sold the Shah seventy-seven top of the line F-14's with the Phoenix missile system. We even taught their pilots to land on American aircraft carriers ... which is almost funny.

You might be interested to know that the Shah had ordered a ton of F-16's and was going to pitch in money for the development of the F-18. He was actually planning on building a small aircraft carrier.

Back to the F-14's ... the lastest thinking (at least what the common public is told) is that about forty to fifty are servicable, but there is a real shortage of Phoenix missiles. The planes have been converted to fire a French missile, but the whole point of the F-14 is the Phoenix missile. It's not a very good plane without it.

(in reply to Sinergy)

Post #: 180

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