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Superiority of western culture? - 4/5/2007 3:46:13 AM   
LadyEllen


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From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		Its coming up in a few threads now, the idea that the west is so predisposed to thinking its culture is the pinnacle of human civilisation that this is at least one of the reasons it is being forcefully spread across the world, and that this in turn is the reason why so many worldwide dislike the west, feeling threatened by this pressure to conform and so resisting it and actively striking back - the most vocal opposition arising in Islam and particularly causing the growth of fundamentalism in that religion.

But are we truly in possession of the highest form of human culture? Certainly we are in possession of the most efficient form of wealth creation - though not necessarily wealth distribution. Certainly we are in possession of representative democracy, which seems to be a sensible form of administering countries, though this is all to often controlled by outside agencies like business and media rather than us. Certainly we are in possession of personal freedoms, yet we find them severely curtailed by laws and regulations as well as the necessities of life in a market economy - and there are some who abuse these freedoms just for the sake of it. Certainly we have a socially aware system in which those experiencing misfortune are provided with a safety net in terms of social benefits and medical care in most places, but this is wide open to abuse too.

I feel we have a lot going for us, and yet I cant help but think that we have just as many faults too, as it is with other cultures. Since Islam is the main talking point in this regard, we can say with ease that their approaches towards women, homosexualty and a host of other issues are major faults from a simple, non partisan human perspective, yet they also have financial services that do not rely on interest and they have in the main respect and cohesion in their societies, both of which we do not have and would be of benefit to us.

I also remember when the eastern bloc crumbled, talking to a Czech friend at the time, overwhelmed with anticipation for the western lifestyle, and telling him that it would be a mistake to think that all is well with western culture and that the country would be well served to retain a strong socialist influence if it wanted to avoid some of the problems we have. They didnt listen.

So,
is western culture perfect enough for us to export it with good intention?
is there anything western culture could and should learn from other cultures?

E

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RE: Superiority of western culture? - 4/5/2007 3:56:36 AM   
SusanofO


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Status: offline 		I don't really believe a culture can be exported, it has to be admired enough to want to be adopted by another country or culture. There is much to be admired about western culture, but also much to give any foreign culture pause (as well as pause to people in some western cultures, as you mentioned, Lady Ellen.)

I am not sure how much overall cohesion there really is in say, Iraq, as tribes there have been battling it out between eachother for centuries. Maybe within specific tribes, like the Shi'ites, or the Sunnis, there is some cohesion - but part of it is based on simple and pure hatred for other tribes, so I am not sure how admirable that really is.

I think the one thing that western cultures (specifically the U.S.) might learn from othjer cultures (China, say) might be a little more humility about the value of  benefitting an entire community, instead of mostly looking to benefit the individual.

However, this might put Capitalism out of business (no pun intended), and I do think overall, Capitalism has more benefits than detriments, on a social, community level. But maybe the two can become even more inter-twined with eachother (western cultures do have non-profit organizations, etc) - but I am referring I guess to an out-look, or attitude, rather than the exact execution of delivering goods and services.

I think western cultures might benefit from revering our elderly more, as I've read happens much more often in eastern and Asian cultures, like Japan, for instance. Here in the U.S. many elderly are simply shuttled off to nursing homes, and rarely live with any extended family.

As long as it is convenient to care for the elderly, we in the U.S., for example, seem to do it fairly well, but - when it becomes a challenge, well...let's just say the elderly aren't exactly revered over here much of the time. I think that's unfortunate, and also maybe preventing some younger people from benefitting from knowledge and just plain charming company many elderly have to offer. 

I think from some tribal communities in Africa,or in the Phillipines, for example, western culture might learn to care more in an extended way for children. The saying "It takes a village" idea seems foreign in many western cultures, where the nuclear family is on the verge of exctinction in some areas, let alone the notion of an extended family, or an entire village, taking responsibility for caring for sick people, or caring for children when an  extended, or immediate family, is unable to do that.

We do have governmental agencies in many western cultures that will do this if nobody else will - but the notion in western cultures many times, is that this action is an absolute last resort, not some social benefit built into the culture as a norm.

That (the above) might be the price we have paid, though, to become technologically advanced, in moving away from a rural, agrarian economy, in some cases. And I think we in the U.S. have come up with some fairly decent subsitutes in social service agencies, etc. as far as benefitting those who absolutely cannot care for themselves.

China may well revere their elderly, but they have also governmentally instituted the idea of the one-child family, resulting in aborting baby girls by the thousands, and also less education for girls, in schools in many rural areas, so all is not perfect in other cultures either, as far as that goes. Japan might be a better example, as far as one I'd consider more humane. 

But, I still think there is much to be learned from the whole "It takes a village" idea, on the micro-level, even if we may think we've "moved past" all of that - and implemented some decent replacements. Because industrial societies can lose a "human" feel, and it can be a big, ugly, lonely world out there, sometimes.    

What an interesting topic!

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 4/5/2007 4:55:07 AM >

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RE: Superiority of western culture? - 4/5/2007 4:00:59 AM   
LadyEllen


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Status: offline 		Thanks Susan - yes, I agree that Iraq is not a good example of a cohesive Islamic society, but then its an artificial country.

I think we need to steer clear of Islamic countries where we have mucked the situation up so badly that theyre not really representative of the whole, in this discussion. Thanks for pointing that out, as I dont see any benefit from going over all that old ground again.

E

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RE: Superiority of western culture? - 4/5/2007 4:19:35 AM   
SusanofO


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Status: offline 		Okay, bad example. I not think of western cultures as "superior". I do consider myself lucky not to have to get up every morning, and say, draw bathing water from a well and have no indoor plumbing, for example.

But - to write off the effective, or uniquely advantageous parts of any culture that isn't as technologically advanced, and overlook advantages they offer their members that are lacking in or own, is wrong, I think.

Because it takes a lot of hubris to think one s so advanced oner cannot learn from any other cutlure. It  would mean (to me) we'd think we know all there is to learn, which would be ridiculous, IMO, there is always more to learn. 

I hope juliaoceania writes in. She is an anthropologist, and I think it would be interesting to hear her comments on this topic. Of course I appreciate hearing lots of people's comments, but she probably has some extra book type knowledge, maybe, about it...

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 4/5/2007 4:26:38 AM >

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And sings the tune without the words,
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RE: Superiority of western culture? - 4/5/2007 4:27:58 AM   
LadyEllen


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From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		I would like to see us be more communally aware, more socially responsible and cohesive, which I think we lack with our culture of individuality. I dont mean like clones, but for each of us to be as divergent as we want yet still be as one.

I would like to see us be more respectful of our aged, which is going to become more and more important in the next few decades as the baby boomers (including me, just about) get into retirement.

I would like to see us become more generally respectful of one another and of others from outside our societies and cultures.

Looking at those three things, it occurs to me that most of our problems come from a lack of humility to recognise that we are part of a whole without which we couldnt live, particularly as individuals.

E

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RE: Superiority of western culture? - 4/5/2007 4:40:29 AM   
SusanofO


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Status: offline 		I agree with you. Especially in Africa, I think it is criminal that we in the U.S who have so much, could buy things like AIDs medicine and mosquito sheilds, to prevent Malaria for all of the people dying of preventable diseases, but don't, is a shame. Everybody can do a little something, as far as being charitable, IMO. A person doesn't have to be rich, they can donate their time on a local level. I see a lot of people who do that, locally.

And the fact we cannot distribute all of this food to starving people is also just a crying shame, IMO. I mean, one of the worst health problems in some western cultures (particularly the U.S.) is obesity. It is just ironic, and unfortunate. And probably preventable in many cases that we can't seem to get more food and needed drugs overseas.

I know that some of the countries who need aid are being prevented from accepting it by their own governments (Korea is a good example of this, as well as Sudan, and some other African nations) but still - where we can help, we in western cultures really should "just do it." And there are a lot of charitable organizations that are trying. Still, I wonder why it takes so long, sometimes.

I was so happy when Warren Buffett donated the bulk of his billions to the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation. That foundation is doing so much to prevent and help treat those afllicted with AIDs, as well as doing other socially charitable things. I hope he starts a trend among wealthy people, as far as putting more billions to chaitable use. How much money does one person really need, anyway?

- Susan  

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 4/5/2007 4:59:20 AM >

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RE: Superiority of western culture? - 4/5/2007 5:50:15 AM   
Rule


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Status: offline 		Western culture? We committed genocide on the indians of North America, wholly exterminated all indians of the plains of Argentina, committed genocide on the jews and gypsy, have had more wars in Europe during the past thousand years than any other part of the world. The list goes on and on. We lack wisdom and compassion.

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RE: Superiority of western culture? - 4/5/2007 5:52:27 AM   
SirDiscipliner69


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Status: offline 		you obviously missed the meaning of The Prime Directive.

Western culture just obliterates things quicker with less compassion.

So if you meet me
Have some courtesy
Have some sympathy, and some taste
Use all your well-learned politesse
Or I'll lay your soul to waste, um yeah
Pleased to meet you


Ross
©º°¨¨°º©

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RE: Superiority of western culture? - 4/5/2007 5:54:42 AM   
SirDiscipliner69


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

Western culture? We committed genocide on the indians of North America, wholly exterminated all indians of the plains of Argentina, committed genocide on the jews and gypsy, have had more wars in Europe during the past thousand years than any other part of the world. The list goes on and on. We lack wisdom and compassion.


Would you favor public flogging to be brought back ofr certain offenses  post # 32
http://www.collarchat.com/m_926392/mpage_2/key_/tm.htm#935696


So if you meet me
Have some courtesy
Have some sympathy, and some taste
Use all your well-learned politesse
Or I'll lay your soul to waste, um yeah
Pleased to meet you


Ross
©º°¨¨°º©

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RE: Superiority of western culture? - 4/5/2007 6:02:03 AM   
thompsonx


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Status: offline 		SusanofO:
You bring up some very important issues.  I am glad to see them in print.
The primary reason that some governments refuse aid from the U.S, is that it comes with strings.  I believe it was Indonesia that refused to allow the U.S. military to help with the tsunami victims.  Then of course they have a long history of the U.S, clandestinly supplying military aid to overthrow their government.  On the other hand Cuba offered medical help to the victims of Katrina and was rebuffed by the U.S. for purely political motives.
thompson

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RE: Superiority of western culture? - 4/5/2007 6:07:58 AM   
SusanofO


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Status: offline 		thompsonx: Good points. I really wonder if the political realities will ever meet-as-one with idealistic, humaitarian motives. All we can do is keep trying, I guess.

- Susan

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And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

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RE: Superiority of western culture? - 4/5/2007 6:25:17 AM   
Sanity


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

We lack wisdom and compassion.


You speak only for yourself.

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RE: Superiority of western culture? - 4/5/2007 6:35:55 AM   
Termyn8or


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Status: offline 		You knew I was coming.

I think the biggest hubris is our thinking of our morality as flawless, when our leaders have none. And that is among the common people, partially propogated by religion and by propaganda and a few other factors.

The first thing that has to go is this insanely intense reverence for human life, then we can deal with the world's problems. To explain, I say this, some must die.

Here is the deal, there are too many people in China, that means that human rights needed to be curtailed and life is not so sweet. It has been cheapened. And the PEOPLE themselves brought it upon themselves. Yes.

Nature punishes a species that overreproduces in any number of ways. One famous method is starvation. Another is insanity. Yes.

But nature's punishment is effective. Back in the 70s a study was done. A bunch of deer were left on an island, knowing full well that they would overreproduce in the absence of predators. The results were interesting and I shall find the article in my FTP and post it. Unfortunately it is in JPG format so either you size it to your screen or just print it.

The relevant point I wish to make about this study is that the deer did overpopulate the island. They did experience a decline in quality of life. They went and caught a few over the years and disected them and found out the glandular changes, and they were significant. Years later the reproduction rate as well as whatever else happened caused the herd to be alot more healthy, thinned out. Having less offspring and eating well. Much healthier specimens.

So nature corrected the imbalance, as nature will do. You see I believe that we are in for hard times due to the stoooooopid governments across the globe, but I also believe that we are digging our own grave as well, with people having kids they can't afford, as well as the wholesale relocation of people who do it. This means that the strife, the corrective influence that would set the situation right is going to be global, not regional. We are not a bunch of deer living on an island. At least not anymore.

In other words, Darwinism, the process of natural selection and survival of the fittest are somehow repugnant to western culture. Why ? What is it that takes away our most basic instincts for survival ?

I can only give a partial answer to that, up until now I thought I was smart. It is the culture itself. The only survival of the fittest left in western culture is fistfights in the street, which are now even illegal. We are just about forbidden even to defend ourselves.

And the US is to have nukes along with a select few countries. Nobody else, because we say so. YOU have to believe in peace, YOU have to believe in all kinds of bullshit, while WE are taking more and more, from more and more people. That is our culture. It is superior in every way.

To those who run it.

T

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RE: Superiority of western culture? - 4/5/2007 6:46:43 AM   
Mercnbeth


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Status: offline 		This is CURRENT Islamic culture, sanctioned by their religious leaders and enforced by the State. There is no separation between this religious doctrine and the civil law in Islamic countries.

If there is a similar CURRENT western, eastern, or any such civil/religious union and enforcement make the comparison. If we were living in the middle ages I would be documenting a list of tortured perpetrated by the Christians on woman, and not rationalizing justification for them.

You want to make their attacks on us reactionary - fine. What they are doing to themselves speaks with more volume anyway.

Support and justify them and you justify this treatment for woman.

1- Complete ban on women's work outside the home, which also applies to female teachers, engineers and most professionals. Only a few female doctors and nurses are allowed to work in some hospitals in Kabul.
2- Complete ban on women's activity outside the home unless accompanied by a mahram (close male relative such as a father, brother or husband).
3- Ban on women dealing with male shopkeepers.
4- Ban on women being treated by male doctors.
5- Ban on women studying at schools, universities or any other educational institution.
6- Requirement that women wear a long veil (Burqa), which covers them from head to toe.
7- Whipping, beating and verbal abuse of women not clothed in accordance with Islamic rules, or of women unaccompanied by a mahram.
8- Whipping of women in public for having non-covered ankles.
9- Public stoning of women accused of having sex outside marriage. (A number of lovers are stoned to death under this rule).
10- Ban on the use of cosmetics. (Many women with painted nails have had fingers cut off).
11- Ban on women talking or shaking hands with non-mahram males.
12- Ban on women laughing loudly. (No stranger should hear a woman's voice).
13- Ban on women wearing high heel shoes, which would produce sound while walking. (A man must not hear a woman's footsteps.)
14- Ban on women riding in a taxi without a mahram.
15- Ban on women's presence in radio, television or public gatherings of any kind.
16- Ban on women playing sports or entering a sport center or club.
17- Ban on women riding bicycles or motorcycles, even with their mahrams.
18- Ban on women's wearing brightly colored clothes. In Islamic terms, these are "sexually attracting colors."
19- Ban on women gathering for festive occasions such as the Eids, or for any recreational purpose.
20- Ban on women washing clothes next to rivers or in a public place.
21- Modification of all place names including the word "women." For example, "women's garden" has been renamed "spring garden".
22- Ban on women appearing on the balconies of their apartments or houses.
23- Compulsory painting of all windows, so women can not be seen from outside their homes.
24- Ban on male tailors taking women's measurements or sewing women's clothes.
25- Ban on female public baths.
26- Ban on males and females traveling on the same bus. Public buses have now been designated "males only" (or "females only").
27- Ban on flared (wide) pant-legs, even under a burqa.
28- Ban on the photographing or filming of women.
29- Ban on women's pictures printed in newspapers and books, or hung on the walls of houses and shops.

 
Getting to be "True and Real" you can take the stance of the Taliban regarding:
- Banned listening to music, not only for women but men as well.
- Banned the watching of movies, television and videos, for everyone.
- Banned celebrating the traditional Afganistan new year (Nowroz) on March 21. The Taliban has proclaimed the holiday un-Islamic.
- Disavowed Labor Day (May 1st), because it is deemed a "communist" holiday.
- Ordered that all people with non-Islamic names change them to Islamic ones.
- Forced haircuts upon Afghan youth.
- Ordered that men wear Islamic clothes and a cap.
- Ordered that men not shave or trim their beards, which should grow long enough to protrude from a fist clasped at the point of the chin.
- Ordered that all people attend prayers in mosques five times daily.
- Banned the keeping of pigeons and playing with the birds, describing it as un-Islamic. The violators will be imprisoned and the birds shall be killed. The kite flying has also been stopped.
- Ordered all onlookers, while encouraging the sportsmen, to chant Allah-o-Akbar (God is great) and refrain from clapping.
- Ban on certain games including kite flying which is "un-Islamic" according to Taliban.
- Anyone who carries objectionable literature will be executed.
- Anyone who converts from Islam to any other religion will be executed.
- All boy students must wear turbans. They say "No turban, no education".
- Non-Muslim minorities must distinct badge or stitch a yellow cloth onto their dress to be differentiated from the majority Muslim population.
- Banned the use of the internet by both ordinary Afghans and foreigners.

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RE: Superiority of western culture? - 4/5/2007 7:04:24 AM   
LadyEllen


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Status: offline 		Yes, of course there are lots of things wrong in some Muslim countries, and some things wrong in all Muslim countries; we can deem this to be so simply on the grounds of common humanity. The question however, was not "should we convert to Islam?" but whether there is anything of value in that culture particularly, and in other cultures generally, that we might do well to adopt? Alongside the question of whether we feel we are so superior that we have the right to impose our ways on others.

E



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RE: Superiority of western culture? - 4/5/2007 7:40:31 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen
The question however, was not "should we convert to Islam?" but whether there is anything of value in that culture particularly, and in other cultures generally, that we might do well to adopt?
The Koran contains some beautiful poetry I recommend we all read it. The art is amazing and the historical discoveries and advancement made by the people of Islam throughout the years is counter-intuitive to their current state of "third world" status. Traveling throughout the world and meeting/working with Muslims proved to me that there is no difference in the personality, desires and fantasies of people regardless of their religious affiliation.

The power and influence of their leaders is the determining factor of my general skepticism. The Koran has a very insidious section of dogma which prohibits speaking against any other Muslim. It is so basic that even the "casual" Muslim sees it as a fundamental belief. I learned this in speaking with them. They don't want to be identified with any of the radical faction of their religion. They are embarrassed by it. But to speak openly against it, whether it be the taxi drivers in Minnesota refusing to pick up passengers with liqueur, or a Mullah in Afghanistan enforcing those rules against woman; is against everything they've been taught. I've been told it is the equivalent of a Catholic's belief in the Pope's infallibility.

quote:

Alongside the question of whether we feel we are so superior that we have the right to impose our ways on others.
E, if you don't find western culture because they do not have rules and consequences similar to those of Islam; I don't know what else to compare. Keep in mind the most radical faction, the one in power in Iran, follows those laws and they are Civil law. Their goal is to impose it anywhere Islam is practiced.

Personally I think it is useless to try and influence a culture so ingrained. The change must come from within. I do think it ironic and indicative of where woman rank in the world that black apartheid in South Africa wasn't tolerated by any "civilized" country. The treatment of woman in Islamic States seems to have no similar reaction. Our woman leader who just visited seem to submit to them. Traveling in South Africa in the 1980's would she make any of her black staff used the "Colored Only" rest rooms?

I'll ask a question back to you, and from the stance that you have; we have no right to impose our ways. My question is Why?

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RE: Superiority of western culture? - 4/5/2007 7:46:50 AM   
farglebargle


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From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		FWIW, it's not "Labor Day", it's "MAY DAY". May First.

Labor Day is what the Labor Hating Boss Class of America dictates is celebrated around the Fall, instead of the INTERNATIONAL CELEBRATION OF LABOR, which occurs about the time the US celebrates "Memorial Day".



< Message edited by farglebargle -- 4/5/2007 7:48:11 AM >

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RE: Superiority of western culture? - 4/5/2007 8:01:11 AM   
LadyEllen


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Status: offline 		Mercnbeth - why we have right to impose our ways?

First off I guess, we have to define what are our ways? Do we have any common culture any more that we can impose, above capitalism, and above the notion of equality and freedom for all which we hardly observe ourselves, and above the notion of democratic process which we find on these boards regularly to be unfit for purpose in our own cases?

But, no we dont have a right to impose our ways on others. What we do have though, is a right to insist on fair treatment for all, which naturally isnt going to go down well with some Muslims in some countries, but that is the bottom line. Its not a bottom line drawn from any particular religious basis, but merely from the view that everyone deserves respect and equitable treatment. Note though that we must insist on it in our dealings with them, not impose it on them in their own countries- its for others to decide whether they want to adopt something of our ways and not our business to force the issue - just the same as its for us to decide whether something in Islamic culture might be useful to us and wont be forced into it. Its because of the force we have used to try to impose our ways that there is so much antagonism against us after all, in the same way that we'd be pissed off if Muslims here tried to make us stop driving because we wear a bra.

Above all though, I think we need to abandon our apparent notion that we are all good and they are all bad - sure, the examples you listed are all bad, but its not that long since we had similar cultural ideas here and its not as if we have perfect societies either that would solve all problems in the world were it transplanted purely.

I think what we need to have is a proper exchange of ideas if we're to solve the impasse we're in, which is why I asked the question really. It shouldnt be about transplanting our culture to them wholesale, and neither should it be about the reverse. But there are good things in Islam which would help us - the ban on usury for one, just as there are good things in our culture they could benefit from.

As for Nancy, well I've voiced my opinion on the other thread, but we have to start somewhere if we're to turn this situation from war to negotiation. If it would help to save lives and stop all this bigotry and hatred on both sides for us to show some sensitivity to get things going, then I see no problem with that.

E

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RE: Superiority of western culture? - 4/5/2007 8:15:10 AM   
ToGiveDivine


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

Western culture? We committed genocide on the indians of North America, wholly exterminated all indians of the plains of Argentina, committed genocide on the jews and gypsy, have had more wars in Europe during the past thousand years than any other part of the world. The list goes on and on. We lack wisdom and compassion.


Don't forget the Mongols, Romans, Greeks, Aztecs, and Incas and any of the ancient super powers - many of the Asian cultures have had a total disrespect for human life, even of their own people, the Indians (from India) still have their caste system, Arabs kill each other with bloody abandon.

And we can't forget the barbarian hordes of the Dark Ages, Huns, Visigoths, Vikings, etc.that came from here there and everywhere.  Let's not exclude the African continent - I'm sure the Tutsis cared about "western genocide" when they were being slaughtered by Hutus - and this is only one group in dozens that have hacked those "other" people to death.

Genocide is not an invention of Western Culture - it's been going on longer than there was a Western Culture and it will be there long after there is no Western Culture.

Just because you hate who you are or have that mindset that you need to apologize to everyone else so maybe they'll like you and think you are "enlightened", don't lump the rest of us into your guilt trip.  Does the Western Culture have problems?  Yes.  Are we the only group with those problems? No.

I'm a white male of Western European background, but when my ancestors came to America, they were portrayed as monkeys and treated poorly by other groups.

I don't believe in detrimental or preferential treatment of people that are of different color, race, religion or culture than me - they get whatever treatment is appropriate based on who they are as a person and their circumstances at the time.

I'm not going to apologize for being a white male and I'm not going to apologize for what some white males did decades ago - especially if I'm not even related to them.  Do I condemn what they did?  Yes, but not because I feel guilty, but because as a human being what they did was reprehensible.

I always joke that I don't believe in racism because there are so many reasons to dislike people on an individual basis.  I bet everyone personally knows of someone that is the same gender, race, color, religion, culture, etc. that they are and that other person is a total a**wipe.  Stupidity and hatred are individual traits that become very dangerous when grouped together - no matter the group.

_____________________________

These are my opinions - which may differ from your opinions. They may be right and just as equally wrong.

Beware, author is often sarcastic in his replies - most often, no sincere offense is intended.

(in reply to Rule)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Superiority of western culture? - 4/5/2007 8:17:14 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

FWIW, it's not "Labor Day", it's "MAY DAY". May First.

Labor Day is what the Labor Hating Boss Class of America dictates is celebrated around the Fall, instead of the INTERNATIONAL CELEBRATION OF LABOR, which occurs about the time the US celebrates "Memorial Day".

fargle,
You need to think outside your western-centric universe. The day is know by different names in different countries and cultures. I kept it as it is stated in the law of Islam as practiced in Afghanistan.

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 20
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