FirmhandKY
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quote:
ORIGINAL: toservez
quote:
ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY
If we adjudge all cultures as somehow "equal", in effect what we are doing is saying that "submission to Allah" - the lack of free will - is equally moral as our concept of free will.
So, when you logically concluded that there is no moral difference between the two, but "the other side" doesn't agree with you, eventually, your culture will lose out for the simple fact that they will be more aggressive on the issue of culture and right or wrong.
Consider it social evolution in action.
So ... this leads to an inescapable conclusion: If you wish your concepts of morality to continue (much less expand to other cultures), you must become a partisan for your morality.
How do you do this?
Well, I see only two ways: by persuasion, or by force.
If you are not a partisan for your own beliefs, and morality, how can you even think to persuade anyone else that they should adopt them? Especially in the Islamic world, which has very high cultural walls against foreign influences.
If you reject force, then what are you left with?
FirmKY
I am sorry this is complete non sense.
Historically religions and cultures that get decimated it had little to do with the belief and therefore the fight for your belief of your own culture and religion. It was about survival after the “cause” with the biggest and best trained armies conquered their land and while there was always talk about enlightening the savages who do not believe in our ways, I think almost all of us believe the history of the world conquest were done for lust for power, wealth and glory and morality of culture never really enters into the picture.
Accepting that all cultures have good and bad points and yes even the assumption they are basically equal does not cause malaise that will be the cultures downfall. Having wealth of some nature and not providing the defense to protect that wealth will always supersede.
The people in the Middle East do not hate us because they believe their culture is morally superior and therefore should spread the world, which is just the junk the power mongers push. The people in the Middle East hate us because their quality of life sucks and they blame the rich countries who have pushed governments and agendas on them in order for them to get what they want. Also, quality of life is not about the size of a house and the age and style of your car.
So if you truly believe in your superior morality of your culture all you are really doing is keeping the chain of misunderstanding and fear mongering going. It is the smoke screen to the real dangers and causes of the troubles in the world and to having possible solutions to having true progress of all man kind and not just our own.
I am sorry this is complete non sense.
I'll just assume that you were having a "reactionary" moment, and didn't actually understand anything I said.
So if you truly believe in your superior morality of your culture all you are really doing is keeping the chain of misunderstanding and fear mongering going.
First, where did I talk about "superiority" anywhere in my post? Perhaps you are reading into it?
Historically religions and cultures that get decimated it had little to do with the belief and therefore the fight for your belief of your own culture and religion. It was about survival after the “cause” with the biggest and best trained armies conquered their land and while there was always talk about enlightening the savages who do not believe in our ways, I think almost all of us believe the history of the world conquest were done for lust for power, wealth and glory and morality of culture never really enters into the picture.
You obviously didn't notice that I gave two different ways that a culture can spread. You seem to be hung up only on the "force" part. The other general method was "persuasion".
"Persuasion" can mean intermingling over historic time periods, and simply out-breeding the original culture, or it can be active proselytizing of a religion or a belief structure (doesn't have to be a "religion"). Or it can mean something like the dreaded "US cultural imperilism" through popular media and consumerism. It can be anything that doesn't involve a gun to the head, or the threat of the same.
Look at what happened to the Mongols in China. Force installed them in power, but "persuasion" over time converted them to Chinese.
Look at what happened in the South America. Conquistadors came to plunder and rule, priest came to convert and baptize. Force and persuasion.
As far as thinking that "beliefs" and "morality" had nothing to do with any of those, then you are sadly mistaken. I'll talk about "morality" in a minute.
Accepting that all cultures have good and bad points and yes even the assumption they are basically equal does not cause malaise that will be the cultures downfall.
Where did you find this stuff in my post? Who said anything about "malaise"? Who said that anything about "equal"? Where did I make any claims about one culture being superior or inferior to another? Or even having "good points" or "bad points"?
Having wealth of some nature and not providing the defense to protect that wealth will always supersede.
huh? I'm not sure of your intent, based on your grammar here. Do you mean to say that having wealth of some nature, and not providing for its defense will always lead to it's loss? Or do you mean something else?
Now, lets talk about "morality".
Morality refers to the concept of human ethics which pertains to matters of right and wrong — also referred to as "good and evil" — used within three contexts: individual conscience; systems of principles and judgments — sometimes called moral values —shared within a cultural, religious, secular or philosophical community; and codes of behavior or conduct morality.
I think your misunderstandings relates to a simplistic view of what "morality" actually is. I think you are taking the first context - individual conscience - while I am talking more about the 2nd and third contexts.
Let me give you back some of your moral beliefs, primarily of the second context (systems of principles and judgments):
1. It was about survival after the “cause” with the biggest and best trained armies conquered their land and while there was always talk about enlightening the savages who do not believe in our ways
2. I think almost all of us believe the history of the world conquest were done for lust for power, wealth and glory
3. The people in the Middle East do not hate us because they believe their culture is morally superior and therefore should spread the world, which is just the junk the power mongers push.
4. The people in the Middle East hate us because their quality of life sucks and they blame the rich countries who have pushed governments and agendas on them in order for them to get what they want.
5. Also, quality of life is not about the size of a house and the age and style of your car.
6. So if you truly believe in your superior morality of your culture all you are really doing is keeping the chain of misunderstanding and fear mongering going.
7. It is the smoke screen to the real dangers and causes of the troubles in the world and to having possible solutions to having true progress of all man kind and not just our own.
Every single one of these statements is a moral judgement, based on currently emerging Western liberal values.
And each and every one of these moral judgments you give are demeaning to the Western Tradition, in effect calling it illegitimate, and valueless.
Moral judgments are what shape the landscape of the mind, and therefore the actions of individuals and cultures. You can't isolate one aspect of morality and not have it affect the other two contexts - actions come from thoughts, words, social fabric, and political institutions.
Wars are started from such morality. Peace is started from such morality. You simply can't separate "morality" in one neat little box and sit it on the shelf.
So, back to my point about currently emerging Western liberal morality ... if your belief system says that your actions, your history and your social and political institutions are evil, corrupt and morally bankrupt - how then does it affect your (generic "your") actions over time?
And what do you call such a culture? Decadent?
If you place no greater value on yourself, and your tradition than you do on the values and traditions of other cultures - if you can see no reason to prepetuate your moral authority - then why do you think another culture won't supersede and replace your worthless, evil, corrupt and worthless culture?
You are not only not defending your moral heritage by apathy: you are actively destroying it. How many cultures simply withered on the vine, due to such thinking? What happens when a culture becomes so decadent? If it is a rich culture, eventually the "barbarians" - vigorous, unashamed of their culture and right to take and change - take it over by force, or simply move into it's lands and out grow the original inhabitants.
And, if you read much about what Islam is saying about the West, that's exactly their view point and the plan of the Islamic fundamentalists. According to them, the West is weak, decadent and morally corrupt.
And no, I've not said that Western Civilization is "superior". But it's ours. What I was saying originally, and what I am saying now though, is that if you are not comfortable with your culture, do not accept it as legitimate, and see no moral difference between it and any other culture, then you will not make any effort to keep your culture. In essence, you allow it to die by neglect, if not by active measures.
Because the more vigorous culture - the culture that asserts it right to exist, to grow and to expand will simply move in and replace you.
Because .... you don't care.
Apathy is the greatest killer of cultures.
FirmKY
< Message edited by FirmhandKY -- 4/5/2007 3:15:55 PM >
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RE: Superiority of western culture? - 
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