NorthernGent
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Joined: 7/10/2006
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So, to sum up the 10 points laid before you:
1) You've declined the offer to put forward an opinion on the funding of militia groups in Nicaragua. A blatant subversion of a nation's sovereignty. This is not a shining example of the virtues of Western culture.
2) The 2nd point put before you is this: is lying about WMDs in order to invade a country and kill people a shining example of culture? - your response is: there were no WMDs, but there were torture houses.
Merc, we all know Saddam was a tyrant who tortured and murdered Iraqis - you're offering nothing new and simply attempting to divert the thread. In terms of Western culture, lies and propaganda propagated in order to invade a country and kill people, is morally bankrupt. The Downing Street Memo is available for you to read - it will give you an insight into the dealings that prepared the foundations for Iraq. Also, try my thread on Nicaragua and offer an opinion on this shining example of Western culture and US politicians. Iraq is a re-run of Nicaragua, so this will give you some grounding into the driving force behind US foreign policy.
3) We agree that nations impeding the sovereignty of other nations is not a shining example of culture. We have common ground here. As said originally, we could do with taking a look in the mirror and sorting out our own problems, starting with the corrupt politicians who are prepared to kill people in a desire to spread their view of the world.
4) The fourth point was around corruption in the West, political parties being bought. One of Ellen's questions is: is western culture perfect enough for us to export it with good intention?
My understanding is this: there is significant pressure in the US for a reform of campaign finance. Where corporations are influencing politics and foreign policy it is clear that the US does not have a perfect culture to export abroad. Where Enron and other firms can dupe the public on such a large scale, it is clear that all is not rosy in the garden - certainly not rosy enough to be pointing to it as a shining example of culture.
5) On the 5th point - executing US citizens: your reply is they are guilty. A) They are not all guilty and there have been recent miscarriages of justice where people have lost their lives B) The developed world is of the opinion that an "eye for an eye" belongs in the middle ages, and society has a duty towards rehabilitation. As a nation, you're pretty much on your own on this one, and my understanding is there are states in the US that would rather not execute its citizens. The lack of compassion towards citizens is not particularly civilised and culturally enlightening.
6) My point about having 3rd world areas inside the US: your reply is "no one is stopping them" and a lazy attempt to discredit my point of view by claiming I recite the BBC's position. There are parts of Los Angeles, Chicago, New Orleans etc where people are living in serious poverty. A culturally enlightened nation would attempt to understand and resolve the factors underlying this poverty. Attempting to claim they are lazy amounts to short-sighted, reactionary politics which will never get to the root of the problem. I'm curious, do you believe that black Americans are offered a level playing field in the US?
7) I point out approx 1.5 million homeless in the US and 200,000 in the UK - your reply is to turn it into a pissing contest between the US and UK - my point was/is: both are shocking examples of the flawed culture of the West - where wealth creation is placed above humanity. I couldn't care less which of the two is worse, it's hard to tell, the point is - the West, including the UK and the US should be sorting out these problems before the self-proclaimation that our culture is a shining example to the world.
8) Point 8 was around inequality while the rich have more money than they know what to do with. I can respect your position here - you believe that wealth redistribution should not impede the concept of individuality. I don't agree with you, but I think this is an area where you put forward a strong argument. My point of view is this: if we live in a place where flowers can cost £200,000, while the homeless are stepped over on the way to buying those flowers, then there is a failure of morals and ethics. A failure of the very foundations that the West is supposed to be built on i.e. democracy. Democracy was intended as a reaction to the dire poverty experienced under monarchs - now we are experiencing poverty under corporations and society is prepared to excuse this on the basis of "individuality". If the day comes when Britain or the US is truly democratic, then Western demoracy can be put forward as a beacon of hope for those ruled by tyrants.
9) The 9th point was election fixing: your response is to claim I follow like a sheep. There have been widespread suggestions of election fixing in your press - Ohio and Florida spring to mind. I'll concede I cannot prove this, nor be certain, as I'm not close enough to the issue. There are widespread suggestions however and the wise move would be to look into this and understand what is going on rather than claim "sheep".
10) My point about people turning away from politics and democracy. You claim they are lazy, stupid or happy with the way things are going. If they're lazy and stupid, then the West has an education issue with its citizens and could do with educating them before spouting cultural enlightenment. If they are happy with the way things are going, then sections of the West are lacking moral fibre - being happy with corporations buying politicians, lying about WMDs in order to pave the way for killing people, rampant consumerism and a widening wealth gap with a high rate of homelessness are not issues on which a culturally enlightened society would be happy about.
In conclusion, when the West is a shining example of culture, then put it forward as such. Until then, get you own house in order first and foremost. There's no shame in accepting that there's work to be done in the garden. It's called self-development. Hoarding skeletons in the cupboard is a recipe for stagnation at the expense of cultural enlightenment.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
You are so much fun! THANKS!
Merc, I don't really go in for drama and the random use of capitals - not my style. A relaxed chat is good enough for me.
Edited to add:
Merc, you've tried to divert this thread towards a chat on the relationship between civil liberties, freedom and government regulation. Feel free to start a thread on this topic and I'll take you up on the offer.
< Message edited by NorthernGent -- 4/6/2007 4:19:41 AM >
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RE: Superiority of western culture? - 
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