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Need some feedback - am I wrong here? - 4/9/2007 3:13:18 AM   
SusanofO


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I would just appreciate some opinions on how I should proceed, if at all, with the following (this is kind of a long post, please bear with me, if you dare):

My niece, Jennifer, age 20, is a college student. She is bright, witty, and beautiful on the inside, as well as the outside, has a wonderful sense of humor, and has many friends, including some guys that follow her around like a pack of lost puppy dogs.

She does, however, suffer from some acne scarring that is very noticeable (with or without make-up, and she is a bit of a tom-boy and not much for wearing much make-up).

I can tell, even though she doesn't ever bring up the topic, that she is very self-conscious about the appearance of her skin. It doesnt help, either, that her only sister, Deborah, looks somewhat like a cross between Miss America, and Barbie.

I can really empathize with this skin problem, because at Jennifer's exact age, I had almost the same exact problem. At the time, though, my parents helped me pay a dermatologist for Derma-brasion, to make me feel better about my appearance. 

This made a tremendous difference in my self-confidence, and I was grateful for my parent's help. Today, I take very good care of my skin, and it is in fine condition, and appearance.

To a female (or anyone, IMO, really), I believe these things can make an important difference, as far as how they may feel about themselves, and I never considered this to be superficial, or un-necessary, cosmetic surgery.

I offered a few weeks ago, after bringing the topic up very gingerly with my niece Jennifer, to pay for her laser surgery, if she would like to have it done, to rid herself of her facial scars. She was over-joyed at the prospect, as she is a poor college student, and much of her part-time income goes toward books and supplies, etc.

I should also perhaps mention I am Jennifer's Godmother.

Well. My sister (Jennifer's mother) phoned me yesterday, in a complete huff, that I'd offered to do this for Jennifer, saying I am focussed only on externals, and that it was wrong of me to impose" my "superfical value system" on my niece, and how dare I offer to "condition her into thinking women should only be valued for their looks", etc.

This really isn't like my sister (at all), and to say the least, I was dismayed. She has been slightly more irritable these past few weeks, as her husband has been having some major health problems (heart surgery)  but I can't believe she actually thinks I did this out of some supeficial focus on the female appearance only. I feel hurt, and misunderstood. 

Maybe I should have asked my sister if I could approach Jennifer before I did it, but I honestly thought she would not care I did, and be grateful that I offered.

My sister has never had anything but near perfect skin, so she doesn't realize, I am sure, how badly having bad skin or scars on the face, can mar a woman's confidence. I said so, too. She continued to tell me then, that she thought it was "way out of line" that I offered this option to Jennifer.

My sister isn't rich but she isn't poor either, and I said I couldn't believe she'd not thought of offering to do this for Jennifer herself, being her mother, able to afford it, and also a woman. Then she really got even more mad at me. Perhaps I over-reacted to what she said to me, but I was insulted by it.

*Jennifer is all excited now, about the possibility of having this surgery, as she hasn't talked to her mother since her mother and I had this conversation.

While I admit this reaction seems totally unlike how my sister would normally behave, I now feel like if I go ahead and help Jennifer to schedule this surgery, that I am somehow betraying my sister, and I am not sure how much longer my sister will remain obstinate in this bad mood  of hers.

I thought I was being rather generous, too (laser surgery of this magnitude isn't cheap) . I was really only thinking of doing it to help my niece, not because I am some superficial twit.  

I am reminded of the SIG line of catize: "No good deed goes unpunished."

*What should I do now? I haven't got the heart to retract my offer to Jennifer, and I feel caught between a rock and a hard place. Any thoughts? Thanks for any help or advice.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 4/9/2007 3:43:43 AM >


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"Hope is the thing with feathers,
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RE: Need some feedback - am I wrong here? - 4/9/2007 3:32:47 AM   
marieToo


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Susan:

Since your niece is an adult, it is really between you and she.  You offered and she was happy for the offer.  If her feelings had been hurt or if she had been offended, well, then I suppose it would be a case of just backing off, but since her reaction was a positive one, I can't see how you have done anything wrong.
Your sisters reaction, given her daughters happiness about it, seems a bit odd to me and uneccessary.  I don't know your sister of course, but maybe she is a little angry because she herself never thought to make the offer. Or she feels that this is something she should have addressed.  Who knows.  I would just let her cool down, as she is going through a lot right now with her H. 
You made an agreement with your niece and I would just stay with it.  As an adult, even a young one, she has the right to make this decision without mom's approval.  And though Im sure you don't want to be at odds with your sister, the bottom line is that you did not need her permission to make such an offer, as your niece is not a minor any more.
It is my opinion, for whatever it's worth, that since your heart was in the right place, you did not do anything "wrong".

< Message edited by marieToo -- 4/9/2007 3:38:39 AM >


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RE: Need some feedback - am I wrong here? - 4/9/2007 3:37:42 AM   
Level


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Susan, I think a lot of this is indeed related to your sister being stressed over her husband's heart problems, I bet. Maybe let things cool for a couple of days, and then sit down with her and gently explain how it helped you having your procedure done.

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RE: Need some feedback - am I wrong here? - 4/9/2007 3:41:35 AM   
SusanofO


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Thanks, both of you are right, IMO on both counts. My sister is a bit stressed, and also my niece is an adult and able to decide for herself (I'd not thought of that, really, maybe because I watched her grow up from an infant, and still think of her as a kid in some ways, even though she's not). I will let my sister cool down, but I am not tempted to ask her permission, either, for this, although it is a good idea to explain how it helped me.

Because I don't think my sister can ever realize just how devastating this kind of condition can be (especially maybe, to a female, although it's bad enough for anyone to have to contend with IMO). And I don't want to retract my offer to Jennifer ( I feel like that would be a total betrayal to her, at this point). Thanks much for the ear, and advice. It is appreciated.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 4/9/2007 3:52:04 AM >


_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

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RE: Need some feedback - am I wrong here? - 4/9/2007 3:52:01 AM   
Termyn8or


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I disagree.

If you got really too much money on your hands, why don't you chip in for the multiple surgeries perfomed on the girl in Ohio who got shot in the face and was missing part of her jaw, after a stupid court freed her rapist. He obviously intended to kill her so she couldn't testify against him.

There are people out there whio die from not having the funds to pay for medical care. Care that I would refuse, but we are talking important shit.

If your niece has emotional problems because of acne, it IS NOT because of the acne, it is because she values the opinions of others, which she sees as based on her looks, more than her own opinion of herself.

Get it straight right now, self esteem cannot be inbued nor bestowed, if it is, it is fake. Self esteem comes from one's positive opinion of the mark they leave in the world, their accomplishments and good deeds. Not from how they look.

What if she was flat out plain ass butt ugly ? You got $100,000 to fix that too ? I mean clear skin, but one eyebrow, overhanging a huge nose and fat ugly lips. I mean non-appealing basic facial features. I mean butt uhgly, and I left the errant H in there. What would you do then ?

Yes I disagree, and I think it may have been inappropriate for you to offer. Ever hear the song with the words "If you wanna be happy for the rest of your life, never make a pretty Woman your Wife". People are too hung up on looks, and as much as I can, I will try to be not accusational, but I suspect you are afflicted with this disease.

Don't inflict it on your niece.

T

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RE: Need some feedback - am I wrong here? - 4/9/2007 3:55:21 AM   
seeksfemslave


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Well needless to say I see things slightly differently. Would it not have been better to discuss it first with both the daughter and her mother.
If the girl is as socially well integrated as you say....is there really a problem other than possibly a lack of perfection. ?

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RE: Need some feedback - am I wrong here? - 4/9/2007 3:58:13 AM   
SusanofO


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Termyn8or: I appreciate it (I really do), that you are not soley focussed on a woman's looks. But your comments are spoken like someone who has never had a problem with their skin. Or even if you have...when men say they don't notice at all what a woman looks like, I mostly tend to think that is BS, even if I am not a superficial person.

Everyone knows men are visually oriented. Women, too, are attracted to men who work out, probably, more than the ones with beer-guts, would be my guess (unless they have some weird flab fetish going on). Why would this surprise anyone, and why would it be considered "wrong"?

I don't value someone else for their looks only, but I notice if they don't take care of themselves much, in that regard. I am not apologizing for it. I value their heart and mind much more than their looks, but I certainly do appreciate it if-when someone takes a wee bit of time to care about how they dress, or maybe work out, for example. Who doesn't?   

Jennifer has not been raised with a superficial value system. She is a good student, and a good person, and she is not wanting this because she thinks she is completely ugly. She genuinely feels awkward, though, about her skin.

seeksfemslave: Well, it is very noticeable. Nobody makes fun of her or anything like that, for it (if they did, I'd come after them myself, and God help them if I did), but it seems to be a problem - to her. Nobody "conditioned" her to feel that way either. If anything, people rarely bring it up, if at all, to her. She's not stupid. She knows how it looks, and she doesn't feel good about it. 

Termyn8or: If that is how you feel, then why not take one-third of the money in your own bank account, and send what you'd normally spend on groceries this next year, to the Food Bank in your local area? - or better yet, overseas to Ethiopia or the Sudan, to help their starving citizens?

Because IMO, many in the U.S. could obviously survive on things like Top-Ramen noodles 7 days a week, plus a few vitamin tablets, and supplements, and yet they obviously over-spend on  food, and many choose to buy things with no nutritional value, like beer, chips, cookies, etc. And even if they do buy healthy food, we can all get by with less of it. One of the biggest problem in this country is obesity, after all.

Self-determination, as far as spending your hard-earned dollars, have absoutely no place in your monetary decisions? Not if you are a "real, un-superfical, giver" type of person? If you are, there should be no limits at all to your generosity? 

Why not sell your house (that you worked so hard to afford, maybe) and just move into a tent, and donate the proceeds to charity?

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 4/9/2007 4:33:44 AM >


_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

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RE: Need some feedback - am I wrong here? - 4/9/2007 4:00:25 AM   
StellaByStarlite


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G'morning Susan. =)

You've already gotten the advice I would have gave. ;) I don't have too much more to add except "Families.... sigh"

Stella

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RE: Need some feedback - am I wrong here? - 4/9/2007 4:02:48 AM   
krys


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Your sister seems to be suffering from the delusion that your neice is still a child, and having Mom tell her that she is pretty is going to cut it.  Your neice has to deal with the reality of what IS, not what her Mommy wants it to be.  So if this will make her feel better about herself, go for it.  Doing something to improve her own self image won't mean your neice is any less capable of being valued for more than her looks.  Since when is self confidence a superficial value system?  +

Does your sister wear a bra?  Makeup?  Get her hair done?  Use moisturizer?  Wear anything other than sackcloth?  Because otherwise telling your neice that doing something to feel better about how she looks is somehow superficial is complete and total hypocritical bullshit. 



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RE: Need some feedback - am I wrong here? - 4/9/2007 4:12:59 AM   
SusanofO


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Stella: Thanks for the feed-back.

krys: My sister does all of those things you mentioned. Which is why I was somewhat floored by her reaction. She must really be under more stress than I realized, but I stil thought what she said was a wee bit over-board. Thanks for listening, and your advice.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 4/9/2007 4:34:38 AM >


_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

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RE: Need some feedback - am I wrong here? - 4/9/2007 4:20:55 AM   
ExSteelAgain


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You offer to pay for it tells me that you are trying to help. Your niece can talk to her mom about it also. Her mom will thank you one day.

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RE: Need some feedback - am I wrong here? - 4/9/2007 4:22:08 AM   
SusanofO


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Ex-Steel: Thanks for the advice. Yes, maybe Jennifer can talk to her mom. I am not retracting my offer to her.

- Susan 

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

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RE: Need some feedback - am I wrong here? - 4/9/2007 4:58:03 AM   
Rule


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I second Termyn8or. He is one of the few wise persons on these forums. I also feel that what you told him was uncalled for, Susan. You asked for advice and he gave you the best advice that he had to offer. I understand that you got into a huff because his advice does not support but opposes your point of view, but that is an immature reaction on your part.
 
As for the acne of your niece. A male that is any good is able to look beyond such a thing. I recall once having seen a young girl of fourteen or fifteen that had severe acne - and I doubt that your niece has it to the same degree - and I could not care less, for I saw the beauty underneath.
 
As for your solution. It is extremely drastic and detrimental to the health of the skin of your niece and to that of her body. Acne is caused by an overproduction of tallow that causes the sweat glands to be shut off from the oxygen in the air, as a consequence of which anaerobic bacteria start to proliferate in those sweat glands.
 
A laser treatment destroys those sweat glands. That is severe damage to the skin, because the parts of the skin that have been mutilated in this way wil never be able to sweat again. Another detrimental result thus is that one of the temperature control mechanisms of the body is damaged in this way. Such laser treatment thus is plain and simple stupid.
 
Besides, these acne problems are puberty and diet related. It is to be expected that her acne will disappear spontaneously and at an exponential rate given time. So the laser treatment is totally unnecessary as well.
 
When suffering from acne one should never put make up on the face, as this will close off the sweat glands and thus exacerbate the problem.
 
Exercizing once or twice per day will cause the sweat glands to flush clean the pores and thus presumably reduce the chance that they become clogged up.
 
Massaging the skin will also contribute to the pores of the sweat glands to remain open.

Yes, you have passed over your sister. You should have consulted with her first.
 
No, your sister has not been negligent.
 
I understand that you have suffered from your own acne problems, but that is because of your lack of self worth. What you are doing now is contaminating your niece with the same lack of self worth and obsession with beauty as you suffer from. In effect you have told her that you think that she is ugly. So you have been very negative towards her.
 
You should tell her that you made a mistake and you should apologize to her for being demeaning towards her.
 
Yes, I know that you did so with the best intentions. But the path to hell is paved with best intentions.
 
Better show her the posts in this thread as well, so she can make up her own mind.
 
 
 

< Message edited by Rule -- 4/9/2007 5:02:11 AM >

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RE: Need some feedback - am I wrong here? - 4/9/2007 6:15:08 AM   
SusanofO


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I do not feel it was un-called for at all, Rule.

*And I  do appreciate everyone's responses and the time they took to write them.

Having suffered for many years with skin problems, I can say that I've done my research on it, and some of what you say, while well-meant, may not be true, and most of it isn't. 

It is pretty individually determined issue, but much of any skin problem is determined by hormonal difficulties, and an over-production of androgen (in some females), despite all the talk one hears of needing to avoid French fries, greasy foods, etc. 

The part about keeping the skin clean is true, IMO, and is backed up with research to a large degree. As for laser surgery for this type of problem - it's done every day of the week, and is considered completely safe for most people. And unless some kind of skin surgery is done - deep ice-pick-type acne scars certainly are never just going to spontaneously disappear, even over time, of their own accord, or even necessarily fade.

With all due respect - I really do know  this - I've "been there", and I've also done a lot of reading on it, and talked to more thanone dermatologist about it,and about current procedures to treat acne and scarring. A lot of what many people seem to believe about why skin problems are generated is myth. Most of it is an inherited tendency, and also hormonal.

I had a right to challenge what I saw as the irrationality of his POV, even if he gave it with the best intent. This isn't about how any male really considers a female's looks over the female who inhabits them. It might be partly about how men consider a woman 's appearnace, but it isn't about that over and above how they might. This is more about how Jennifer might feel, over how any man might feel about her looks, even though it is to be considered. And she feels bad (for whatever reason). I love her and want to help.

*As to the rest of my answer: It had to do with what people consider an "essential" expense. Just where, or how, does anyone decide where to "draw the line" as far as what is considered "essential as an expense"?

*If someone (or everyone) is going to to be concerned with charity, or spending money only on "essential expenses" - then why not go all the way along that line of thinking - and see where it leads?

*IMO, Everyone has some right to control how the money they may work very hard to earn is spent. And even if they don't work hard to earn it, they still do. I donate p[lenty to charity (although that is really very much beside the point, IMO).

I was not trying to be crass, or threatening to him. I was trying to point out the irrationality of what it appeared (to me) he was really saying. If he is going to debate that as a point, then I can certainly do it. If he can't then he shouldn't bring it up as a point of argument or debate.

That is what I was trying to do, actually. If he doesn't want to, we don't have to do it. It was an honest intellectual response on my part, IMO. It is how I felt about the topic, too. I wasn't particularly angry, I was answering what he stated.

- Susan   

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 4/9/2007 7:03:24 AM >


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And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

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RE: Need some feedback - am I wrong here? - 4/9/2007 6:19:45 AM   
seeksfemslave


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Rule: I absolutely knew that if I waited long enough you would make a post that was coherent, to the point and  with which even little me could agree. Termyn8tors response excepted.

There is much that could be read into SusanO's attitude, good intentions ? notwithstanding.
I thought it wiser to be circumspect !!

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RE: Need some feedback - am I wrong here? - 4/9/2007 6:27:32 AM   
Celeste43


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I wouldn't have offered a specific treatment because that may not be the best thing for her. Instead I would offer a dermatologist appointment and to pay for whatever treatment was recommended.

Perhaps your sister's response was so over the top because she enjoyed being the pretty one in comparison to you, and has some hidden guilt which is now coming out. Sibling rivalry is well known and I wouldn't be surprised if she always enjoyed thinking of herself as much more attractive than you, because your parents probably described her as the pretty one and you in other terms. I don't think she's thinking of her daughter as much as she is about her own inability to handle it when you had treatment and she couldn't congratulate herself on being prettier than you anymore.

You might mention how this is putting a permanent wall between your two nieces which will last for a lifetime. That Jennifer cannot confide in her sister because she knows that she is the plain one who is pitied and looked down on. And ask if this is the way she wants her daughters to feel toward each other, that she enjoys knowing they will never be good friends. And then tell her your own feelings toward her when you were young.

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RE: Need some feedback - am I wrong here? - 4/9/2007 6:28:43 AM   
SusanofO


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Rule: It's completely logical, IMO. Where does (and how) anyone "draw the line" as far as what may be considered an "essential expense"? It is a very good question - and one that actually might make for a very interesting discussion. He brought it up to begin with - where did he run off to?

Celeste: You are right, we should visit a dermatologist together (or maye she alone - either way, if her mom won't come, too), although I am pretty familiar with this, and think it will be laser thatg would be recommended, I can't say that for absolute certain.

It is aslo possible what you said about my sister is true. She is my sister, and I will always love her, even if she is a _itch sometimes, (but she usually is not) but- she was the youngest, and basically got whatever she wanted out of my parents, whereas I and my middle sister always  had to sort of beg, and talk my parents into anything that was considered in any way a "privilege". Maybe that has something to do with her attitude, too (because she always has had that atttitude, at least a little, and still does today,  IMO).

I know she's under stress, and I get that. But she didn't have to completely blow her top - expecially when it is so obvious my niece needs the help (at least to me it is. And also to my niece, IMO).

- Ssan   

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 4/9/2007 6:41:16 AM >


_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

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RE: Need some feedback - am I wrong here? - 4/9/2007 6:55:03 AM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
Rule: I absolutely knew that if I waited long enough you would make a post that was coherent, to the point and with which even little me could agree. Termyn8or's response excepted.


 
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
There is much that could be read into SusanO's attitude, good intentions ? notwithstanding.
I thought it wiser to be circumspect !!

By definition I am the most wise person on our planet. However, this kind of wisdom is possible only when people wisdom is sacrificed. Thus I am a blunt, crass person.
 
I recognize your people wisdom and admire you for it, seeks.
 
Susan: your thread is not about Termyn8or, but about you and your niece and your sister. Do not hijack your own thread.

< Message edited by Rule -- 4/9/2007 6:56:30 AM >

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RE: Need some feedback - am I wrong here? - 4/9/2007 6:59:43 AM   
SusanofO


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Well I did recieve good advice and I appreicate anyone who bothered to comment (or will). No matter what their comments were, all of them were appreciated, and many were very helpful and encouraging. Thanks for that.

As for anyone who thinks I cannot take a "blunt" comment. I certainly can, and can be a fairly decent debater, when I see an issue that can be debated, and especially since he seemed to want to debate it. I was not trying to discourage discussion, just answer his comment. The essence of his POV made zero sense to me. I was not trying to be rude.

- Susan 

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 4/9/2007 7:02:14 AM >


_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

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RE: Need some feedback - am I wrong here? - 4/9/2007 7:07:32 AM   
KatyLied


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I think you should have discussed this with your sister first.  I would be upset if a family member interfered in how I raise my kids.  When the girl is 21, it's her decision.  My advice is to not detract the the offer, but tell her it's on hold until she is 21.


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