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RE: Abused into submission - 4/13/2007 11:34:56 AM   
Aswad


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Joined: 4/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Devilslilsister

Protecting yourself isnt easy.[...] i think its pretty easy to sit from your throne and spout this, but if we were to drop you down to say my size..... you might see things differently.


It certainly isn't easy if one is a child. An adult has a greater chance of doing so, however.

As for size, that isn't as much of an issue as you'd think. I've been dropped by someone smaller than myself from having a door smashed in my face, and I've quite consistently intimidated away larger attackers so far. And if it came down to physical combat, if the other person isn't drugged, I'd have a fair chance. Why? Because I took responsibility for my own safety and learned to defend myself.

Still not saying that it's the victim's fault for not doing so. Just that shit happens. Some of us learn first-aid in case of an accident, some buy fire-insurance in case of fire, some learn to defend themselves in case of assault. No matter what you're doing, it's not your fault when shit happens, but taking extra measures will leave you better prepared.

quote:

i have learned to protect myself by not being trusting, naive, and learning to be vicious, cold, calculating, evil, and a predator.


That's not the best approach, IMO. Although understanding how a predator thinks will help you avoid their radar. As the guy tying his shoelaces told the other guy running from the bear when asked if he thought it would help: "I don't have to outrun the bear, I just have to outrun you."

quote:

Long live being able to rip out some ones throat before they rip out yours!


Amen. I realize you were sarcastic, but I'm not. Attacking the other person before a clear threat is present is assault, and inadvisable. Neutralizing an already present threat with force, however, is the way stuff works in nature, and the only thing that works in a free society.

Either you give the police the authority and resources to fully control society any way they please, and trust them with this mandate, or you accept that their role is more one of prevention, detection and response, rather than one of aborting an assault that is in progress. I'd never give up that much freedom for my safety, so defending oneself is the remaining course of action to preserve safety.

Anyway, you read a judgement into his post that wasn't there, IMO. Failure is the complement of success, not some horrible flaw of character.

The fact that you drew the conclusion that responsibility/blame was implied tells more of the baggage you're still carrying than about what he said. Perhaps you're carrying around some unjustified self-blame? Not saying you do, but it's fairly common.


(in reply to Devilslilsister)
Profile   Post #: 101
RE: Abused into submission - 4/13/2007 11:42:49 AM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

For all I know, 99.9% of women are abused, making up a considerable fraction of BDSM while 100% of all women in the vanilla world have been abused.  While I don't find this likely, my point is, this is -not- the topic.


Insofar as the ratios are similar, it is relevant to the topic. If there is no difference, there is no correlation, which strongly implies no causation. Why assume that abuse has lead people to their interest in BDSM, rather than assuming that this bit is fairly independant, and that the only correlation is that some people find it may be a plausible connection, thus projecting a false causology?

Just saying... You did say that many of your subs/slaves denied any connection. Why assume that they're wrong, when there appears to be no correlation?

quote:

Some female slaves I have been with have come to BDSM due to rape.  They have reasons.  Reasons which are difficult to understand, but obviously strong ones for their level of commitment and dedication. I am trying to understand these reasons. The effects abuse has on one's view on BDSM.


If you don't understand their reasons, how can you conclued that it is "due to rape", even in their case? I can see going to BDSM as a way to overcome what happened, in various ways, but not as a general case. I don't see anything obvious about this.

Again, people have tried to analyze BDSM and its purported relations to childhood (or later) traume in many different paradigms, with no solid results. That's how you end up with publications stating that Dommes have a narcissistic obsession with their own bodies and think their clitoris is a penis... yes, published recently...

quote:

These are unwelcome. Disregard them.


Oh. Sorry. I got the impression this was a public forum. 


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Profile   Post #: 102
RE: Abused into submission - 4/13/2007 11:45:58 AM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

Be careful not to confuse correlation with causation.


And I thought I was the only one worried about this here.

Also, confusing a person's way of explaining something to themselves with actual causation merits a fair deal of skepticism, as well. Some people have the self-insight to make an accurate analysis or say "I don't know" when that's not possible for them, but these are a distinct minority. They aren't the only ones that attempt such self-analysis, though.


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Profile   Post #: 103
RE: Abused into submission - 4/13/2007 11:58:41 AM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

Yes, many have directly stated it.  Some have had crying fits over it.  It is not up for debate.


Like the Bible wasn't up for debate in Sunday school? It's a forum; everything is up for debate.

quote:

(snip for mods) girls masturbate 'consensually' when their daddies played with their private parts beforehand.


Not to start a flamewar or everything, and I'm not going to break the ToS again by going into detail on this in a post, but have you read [Rind et al 1998] ?

quote:

Excuse the bluntness, but you must understand how shallow the notion of consent is when it comes to abusive-related activities.  You're diluting something vulgar with pleasant and vague terms.


Do not confuse absence of resistance with presence of consent.

Consent, as a term, involves being able to give this consent, which depends on things like the maturity and sanity of the person giving the consent. For me, at least, this is the standard I require for play or short-term submission.

The stronger term, informed consent, has the added meaning of fully comprehending the consequences of a choice, and being fully aware of any alternatives. Again, for me, this is the standard I require for long-term submission or slavery.

Neither of these are satisfied in such a case, and most people in the community take one or both of these very seriously.


(in reply to CuriousLord)
Profile   Post #: 104
RE: Abused into submission - 4/13/2007 12:06:39 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

I disagree with this from the standpoint that it while it is true, in a sense, it misses the reality.


So far, I agree. BDSM and rape are unrelated in terms of mindspace, setting and usually also the nature of the acts.

quote:

Rape is not about sex.  A person can go almost anywhere and get laid or buy sex. Rape is about control.  It is about violence.  It is about stealing a portion of the victim's inner soul.


This is the popular view. And probably accounts for a fair number of cases. But it isn't the only reason, by far. Yes, it involves control, and may involve violence. However, it can be about sex, or any number of other things.

Have a look at the therapies used to lower recidivism rates. Points such as creating a sense of empathy with one's former victims figure prominently, and quite frequently, this is something that person is lacking.

Remember that almost all research into these kinds of things will be heavily biased, as it is simply not accepted to fail in the political correctness department, nor is it particularly accepted to reach unconventional conclusions. In many cases, calling it a science is a joke. This is to the detriment of actual past and future rape victims.


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Profile   Post #: 105
RE: Abused into submission - 4/13/2007 12:18:49 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Personally I can see how being submissive in personality could lead to being abused. I do not have any information on the prevalence of it though.


Depends on your definition of submissive. And the relation isn't submission, per se.

Turn the tables. Imagine you're the predator. You'd want a target you can get at, and that you can succeed at attacking. This is something that's very frequently seen in criminal psychiatry.

For instance, most cases of CSA that are not perpetrated by a relative or close acquaintance of the family are being perpetrated by people with no particular attraction to that class of victim; they simply choose them because they offer a higher probability of success.

Avoiding predators as an adult involves being conscious of where you are, what signals you send, whether you appear vulnerable, and so forth. The best layman's description of what to be aware of that I've seen so far is Marc "Animal" MacYoung's five stages of violent crime: intent, interview, positioning, attack and reaction. You can find them online.


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RE: Abused into submission - 4/13/2007 12:32:14 PM   
Devilslilsister


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quote:

As for size, that isn't as much of an issue as you'd think. I've been dropped by someone smaller than myself from having a door smashed in my face, and I've quite consistently intimidated away larger attackers so far. And if it came down to physical combat, if the other person isn't drugged, I'd have a fair chance. Why? Because I took responsibility for my own safety and learned to defend myself.


i never said dont defend yourself. = )  Some people are fast.  I flipped a man off, jokingly, thinking it was all a joke, and before i could say "oh shit" he was digging his fingers underneath my jaw line to rip my face off.  Literally.  Did i defend - you bet.  My face wasnt ripped off. 

i was attacked by some one once... and put into a headlock.  He happend to have been bigger, out weighed me by prolly a 100 lbs.  Did i defend?  Hell yes i hit him in the face as much as i could trying to be released.  He in turn tried to throw me down two flights of stairs.  Did i defend?  Hell yes.  i didnt get thrown down the stairs.  He eventually tackled me to the ground and sat on my chest.  Did i try and throw hiim off of me?  Hell yes.  Did i succeed?  No, i merely pissed him off and was told how no one would find my body.  200 plus lbs pinning sitting on my chest and i was fucked.  Did i defend?  No.  When he raised his fist up in the air to come smashing down into my face, i simply became calm and turned my face to the side, closing my eyes and thought  "i dont want a broken nose in my coffin"  When he decided (after repeatedly bring his fist into the air and not striking) to throw me down the stairs instead.  Did i defend?  No, i realised that at the rate he was shoving me forward i would not be able to drop to the ground and as he shoved me off the top step i saw the hand railing - managed to grab on - and went flying into the wall instead. 

Its not easy to defend yourself, especially at my size.  You might get beat up, hurt, ect - but if you're lucky - you'll live through it. 
quote:


That's not the best approach, IMO


i know, but it works for me.

quote:

Amen. I realize you were sarcastic


sarcastic with the truth? 

quote:

trust them with this mandate


No, i've been told that if they dont see the assult, there isnt anything they can do. 

quote:

Perhaps you're carrying around some unjustified self-blame?


Who says its unjustified?  i put myself in those situations.  i screwed up, bad things happened.  i trusted the wrong people, trusted the wrong situations, didnt realise there are others out there with such ill intent.... it takes two to tango.  And until i can learn to take responsiblity for my part in what happens, i will never learn to prevent it from happening again.  And so i learned.   i've only had one or two "bad" occurances in the past 9 years.  i've done a damn good job at learning.




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RE: Abused into submission - 4/13/2007 12:41:34 PM   
darkinshadows


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quote:

but i can say with great confidence, if i, personally, was unruley, untamed, wild, relentless, without desire to please, appease, and not cause conflict, no, i would never have been in that situation, ever.for me, there WAS a DIRECT correlation between my submissive nature and my abuse. and yes, i did try to say no when it came right down to it, and it felt wrong. and for you to say that i am using my submissive nature [or any woman for that matter] as an EXCUSE to why i became present in that situation, then you are belittling me, my experiences, my position in life and my choice of servitude.
 
That may be so for yourself, but that isn't just because you are submissive in nature.
Maybe I am going to sound cold and harsh right now - but time and time again we see how people equate submission to doormat - and everytime that happens, people deny it like its a bad thing.
Ok - so lets say submission doesnt = doormat.  Then in the same breath, submission doesn't equal abuse.  It is down to the individuals themselves, not because you are submissive.  If someone wants or is going to be a victim, they will be, regardless of gender, orientation, position or role, through situation - nothing more or less.
 
I am submissive.  I have suffered abuse.  But just because I did - doesn't mean I turned to BDSM and it doesn't mean because of what I am, I can pass the buck.  I didn't ask to be raped, but I did not stand by and just accept it either.  Just because you have a submissive personality, or you have manners that isn't an excuse.  And as much as you may feel offended and belittled by what erin wrote, I could feel that you belittle those women who are strong or 'unruly' or relentless in any way, who also could not stop the abuse they suffered or the rape they had to go through.
 
Being submissive doesn't = a possible victim - its down to you.
If anything, the women and men that use BDSM as a cathartic tool are extremely powerful, but they may just not realise it.  How much power and worth do you think it takes a person to realise their struggle and accept their healing?  How fucking cool is that?  But in no way is that due to their orientation, it is down to their understanding of the self.
 
Peace and Rapture


< Message edited by darkinshadows -- 4/13/2007 12:42:01 PM >

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RE: Abused into submission - 4/13/2007 2:59:54 PM   
KnightofMists


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

quote:

ORIGINAL: mixielicous
she is submissive, yes that causes the abuse.


I could not possibly disagree more. It is possible for anyone of us to become a victim, submissive or Dominant. But submission is not an excuse to allow ourselves to continue to be someone's victim.


I think what causes so many people issue is that by it's very nature.. a person that is abused is also submitting to that abuse.  It doesn't mean they are a submissive personality.  It only means that they are in a situation that puts them into a submissive role.   Being in a submissive role doesn't equate to being a submissive personality.  Also... submitting doesn't equate it being consensual either.   One can fight, claw scratch etc.. but in the end... if the one lacks the ability to stop it.. they will be forced to submit.  There is a huge difference between Forced Submission as compared to Consensual Submission.  The Former is Debilitating the Latter is Empowering.

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Profile   Post #: 109
RE: Abused into submission - 4/13/2007 4:18:44 PM   
SusanofO


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Status: offline 		CuriousLord: Look. I meant you no offense, but - do you seriously believe I cannot discuss this topic? I work with UMs that have had things done to them like being raped by their own "caregivers" and burned w/cigarettes, at the age of, say 3. So it's not as if I am "unable to deal", or do not think it is seriously  _ucked up for an adult, to do to such things to someone (especially a UM), or that it is not "vulgar".

Some others who read these threads, too, are not totally unfamiliar w/the concept of abuse existing in childhood (really they are not), and things like rape, existing, either, obviously. So yes, they can discuss it on these message boards, and it is not, IMO, a "taboo" topic (but do tread carefully, due to the Mods and what is considered acceptable as far as mentioning here, etc).

*If you want to doing something positive for someone you know who has experienced abuse in childhood, and is sufferring for it deeply, and-or it is definituetly detrimentally affecting your D/s relationship w/them, try offerring them counselling.  That is my humble suggestion.

Based on 7 of your past submissives, I don't think, as you yourself stated, that one can totally generalize, though, still, as far as why the rest of females in general are involved in bdsm, although I have stated myself that I do think there may be a connection between past abuse and bdsm - (and that also in the "vanilla" world, people have been affected by those who would do things like sexually and physically abuse them, to a greater or lesser, degree as well).

*Actually, I haven't noticed anyone (except possibly Aswad) putting forth any recent stats on any "connection" or non-connection (and don't know if a definite, very high correlation exists, or could be seriously scientifically studied, but then, I am a jaded researcher - it's what I did for a living when I had  "real career" so I tend to be skeptical of stats anyway, even if they do exist.

Although I will say, IMO, some stats and studies are better than others.) I haven't looked them up on this topic, either I am only going on what I read, say 3 years ago. and what I read then  said. 

And so, we conclude.....?

Yes, it's a shame and yes it can make me angry some submissives have been abused as chidren (it does). No it isn't a great occurrence, or something to ignore. Sorry you've run across these submissives, and it's very nice you're concerned about it, IMO. Truly.

*I just don't necessarily think it has to be seen as complete detriment to a bdsm relationship, or as something totally unusual, or a thing that places one's own motivatons for bdsm activity on some "higher plane", simply because someone may hav e not suffered a similar fate (not that you insinuated that, but IMO, you really came 'ya kind close to it - probably not intentionally, or I am mis-reading, in which case, my Oops).

These people, when these things happened to them, were victims at the time. What 'ya gonna do for them? Re-write history?

I'd just keep on being nice to them, ask, (now that they are grown adults, and in consensual relationships, I might add) perhaps, if they want abuse counselling (and I'd do it w/out being patronizing), and see if that helps them in some way, because it might truly help. Treating them totally as emotional invalids (even if they have been vicitmized) might be an over-reaction, IMO.

I am not "down-playing" their pain (I am not), just attempting to see they are able to retain their own dignity, and I do think it can indeed help to be supportive. It's just my personal POV.

Good luck, and IMO it is a worthy topic.

- Susan 

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 4/13/2007 5:17:09 PM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

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RE: Abused into submission - 4/13/2007 4:59:42 PM   
Stranger1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

quote:

ORIGINAL: mixielicous
she is submissive, yes that causes the abuse.


I could not possibly disagree more. It is possible for anyone of us to become a victim, submissive or Dominant. But submission is not an excuse to allow ourselves to continue to be someone's victim.


I think what causes so many people issue is that by it's very nature.. a person that is abused is also submitting to that abuse.  It doesn't mean they are a submissive personality.  It only means that they are in a situation that puts them into a submissive role.   Being in a submissive role doesn't equate to being a submissive personality.  Also... submitting doesn't equate it being consensual either.   One can fight, claw scratch etc.. but in the end... if the one lacks the ability to stop it.. they will be forced to submit.  There is a huge difference between Forced Submission as compared to Consensual Submission.  The Former is Debilitating the Latter is Empowering.


Empowerment, as opposed to repetition.

AMEN.

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Profile   Post #: 111
RE: Abused into submission - 4/13/2007 5:29:59 PM   
SusanofO


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Status: offline 		darkinshadows: Nice, (as well as very realistic) assessment of the topic area, IMO. My complements (really). I very much agree that how folks view this, is pretty much individually determined. Id submissiv types are abused because they are subsmissive, I do tend to beleve it might be more as children, but can see where it coulad ahppen to an adult female as well (but adults are adults, and of course UMs have zero choice in the matter, whereas an adult has a bit more).

But thinking someone's past history can have no influence on their present choices is crazy, IMO. But - IMO, it may be qually remiss to assume these choices are always made simply due to that "past abusive history". 

Actually, I didn't see folks as trying to "pass the buck", just trying to understand, in their own ways, if there is truly a high (or low) correlation between currently appreciating bdsm activity, and having an abusive past or childhood.

I also truly appreciated what Vendeval said, about not confusing correlation (even one that might be 'higher than normal') with total causation - it is a pretty complicated conclusion to just draw, IMO, even if some definite, general connection superficially does seem to indeed exist. 

There are other factors that come in to play as well, IMO, as far as why anyone may be drawn (or not) to bdsm activity. Exposure to the fact bdsm exists as a life-style option, for one thing. Plus how a person's seemingly (to some) "innate" sexual activity preferences are actually determined (does anyone definitely know? If so, please show me the stats. I'm very interested). And other things, like their environment. These things can all maybe work together, IMO, to produce a person's "sexually related activity preferences".

I don't think these kinds of other (possibly highly influential) factors are so easily dismissed, even if some definite correlation seems to exist, between childhood abuse, and a proclivity for bdsm activity as an adult. I think its a complicated question to answer.

But, I do think it's an interesting, and worthy, dicsussion topic. Those are my final "two cents."

- Susan 

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 4/13/2007 6:31:26 PM >

_____________________________

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That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

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Profile   Post #: 112
RE: Abused into submission - 4/13/2007 6:32:50 PM   
SusanofO


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Status: offline 		Adults are cognizant beings w/more independent decision-making skill than UMs have, and people's history can come into play as far as their current choices (whether that history is "abusive", IMO, or not). People are, in some part, the sum of their personal experiences (and other things can be involved too, IMO) like maybe biology.

Bdsm is consensual activity between adults, bottom-line. I know it can be mis-used (the notion of consensuality), but - there it is anyway, stark out on the table, as a "solution" to this supposed dilemma.

Can't really ignore that notion is there completely, IMO, unless of course, one wants to simply stop participating in bdsm activity, due to being fearful of "abusing" some adults w/abusive pasts, who agree to do it, as grown adults. If it is really a fear this may be happening, I do see an offer of counselling as a viable solution.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 4/13/2007 6:42:16 PM >

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RE: Abused into submission - 4/13/2007 6:35:57 PM   
FukinTroll


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Status: offline 		susan I think you might really need a slurp about now.

Slurp!

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RE: Abused into submission - 4/13/2007 6:41:02 PM   
SusanofO


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Status: offline 		I feel better now, Fukin' Troll. Thanks!

- Susan

_____________________________

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That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

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RE: Abused into submission - 4/13/2007 6:41:21 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Devilslilsister

i never said dont defend yourself. = )  Some people are fast. [...]


Ah, my mistake. Sorry.

quote:

He eventually tackled me to the ground and sat on my chest.  Did i try and throw hiim off of me?  Hell yes.  Did i succeed?  No, i merely pissed him off and was told how no one would find my body.  200 plus lbs pinning sitting on my chest and i was fucked.


Been there, although back in school. That sucked a lot.

Although, it did serve as motivation to improve my skills, particularly the groundwork and preemptive attacks.

quote:

Its not easy to defend yourself, especially at my size.  You might get beat up, hurt, ect - but if you're lucky - you'll live through it.


Have you tried training in any Martial Arts, practical shooting or knife fighting? You might want to look into it.

quote:

i know, but it works for me.


Whatever floats your boat.

quote:

sarcastic with the truth?


Ah, sorry again, your post was so dripping with venom that I assumed it to be sarcastic in that regard.

quote:

No, i've been told that if they dont see the assult, there isnt anything they can do.


Quite. And sometimes they don't interfere, even if present. This has become a bit of a problem up here in Norway, at least.

quote:

it takes two to tango. [...] i've done a damn good job at learning.


I agree with what you were saying here. That is, about how one can take steps to reduce the likelyhood of running into problems. One isn't responsible for people trying to do shit in the first place, but one is responsible for trying one's best to improve upon the outcome.

Learning not to turn a blind side to the bloated underbelly of humanity has helped me a lot, too... although it took a long time to bring the attendant cynisism down to a level that was appropriate to the size of said underbelly, and to fully appreciate the positive sides as well. Just hoping you have, or will, undertake(n) those steps as well.


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RE: Abused into submission - 4/13/2007 6:43:32 PM   
bandit25


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Status: offline 		Is this the new slurp line?  I really need a schedule Fuckin

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RE: Abused into submission - 4/13/2007 6:45:07 PM   
FukinTroll


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

I feel better now, Fukin' Troll. Thanks!

- Susan


I'm looking at how you put name up ^ there and I can't decide if you are romancing me or running me off.

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RE: Abused into submission - 4/13/2007 6:46:42 PM   
CuriousLord


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

BDSM often simulates rape.  Some my tie up, gag, bind, and otherwise strip control from another, forcing themselves upon them sexually.
I've come to understand that one of the most tramuatic aspects of rape is that it can be intensively physically enjoyable.  I doubt it would be half so bad if not.  To physically enjoy being violated.. to have a lose of control.. and to hate it, all at once.



I disagree with this from the standpoint that it while it is true, in a sense, it misses the reality.

Rape is not about sex.  A person can go almost anywhere and get laid or buy sex.

Rape is about control.  It is about violence.  It is about stealing a portion of the victim's inner soul.

From the survivors I have spoken to, and what I have studied as an adjunct to my job, one of the biggest issues a survivor has to deal with is the profound sense of loss of control, as well as the self-hatred for having lost control of the situation.  She/He has something stolen from her soul by the animal that rapes her which she may spend the rest of her life trying to regain.

Sex is a biological imperative.  This woman may physically enjoy the act of sex.  But the mind recoils in horror from a rape because the context of deciding when and where to have sex is ripped from her control.  While you might enjoy the idea of being raped, I imagine you might feel differently when a large gang of other prison inmates breaks a light bulb inside your anus to ensure you have ready lubrication for their use during your incarceration.

It is not about the sex aspects, it is about the choice.  Rape is when the person being raped believes they do not have one.

Sinergy


You're confusing action with intent.  Simulation requires similar action, not intention.

(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 119
RE: Abused into submission - 4/13/2007 6:46:55 PM   
FukinTroll


Posts: 6277
Joined: 2/6/2007
From: Under a bridge
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quote:

ORIGINAL: bandit25

Is this the new slurp line?  I really need a schedule Fuckin


bandit there are times when I can decide if I am going to spank ya, slurp ya, or just (bleeep) ya.

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I'm the guy your girl is thinking about when she is fucking you!

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Greedy Groupie!

The Mods have me on speed Spank!! Gotta luv'em.

(in reply to bandit25)
Profile   Post #: 120
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