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RE: Abused into submission - 4/13/2007 6:48:51 PM

bandit25

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I hear that a LOT...must be a flaw in my character....

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RE: Abused into submission - 4/13/2007 6:54:16 PM

CuriousLord

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quote:

ORIGINAL: darkinshadows

I don't think anyone denies there is a link between abuse victims and those that come into BDSM - but there are also people outside wiitwd that don't come into BDSM practises. There isn't any 'proof' either way one is more than the other and I don't understand the disappointment that the thread brings this up.

Some people 're-enact' rape scenarios as some type of cathartic release due to past experiences. Fact.
Some rape victims don't and find those that participate in such scenes to purge themselves as disturbing. Fact
Some rape victims do not use BDSM at all and choose another route. Fact.

quote:

BDSM often simulates rape.

This I totally disagree with - although I get what you are saying, the inference is dangerous. Unless you have been raped, you would have no idea what it can involve. Some rape isn't violent at all and some do not even include Bondage. For some, there isn't even a pinning down. Rape comes in many forms - some of it isn't even penetrative. BDSM can consist of a scene that simulates rape, but to state that BDSM often simulates rape is a minor but dangerous supposition. (I am not meaning to be pedantic - but clarity is incredibly important and it isn't about being 'PC' it is about examining boundaries and clearing the way so that abuse in BDSM isn't acceptable in the Stein example)

So we get that some people involved in BDSM have been past abused, or even abusers. But whether they got into BDSM because of that, is a wild and unanswerable guesstimate, because there is no possible way of knowing whether they would have experimented with BDSM without the abuse taking place. It is simply one of those 'just never know' outcomes. People can perceive that their rape or abuse led them to a place in their life where they need to use BDSM as a purging instrument, but that is like saying all self harmers are masochistic etc...
It is a simple unknown quantity...

People often eat. This does not mean life is about eatting. This does not mean people revolve around eatting. This does not mean people eat even a quarter, of the time. (Hell, somedays, I'm too busy to even do it once.)

BDSM often simulates rape. This does not mean BDSM is about rape. This does not mean BDSM revolves around rape. This does not mean that BDSM simulates rape even a quarter of the time. (Hell, somedays, I'm too busy to tie up my slave.)

---

Yes, it can be seen as a dangerous statement. I can empathize with people being afraid of what it may mean. I do not, however, see covering up the fact or denying it as in any way a healthy means of dealing with it.

For me, much of BDSM has been about searching for understanding and truth. To me, it is a violation to refuse to consider something out of fear of its implications.

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RE: Abused into submission - 4/13/2007 6:57:00 PM

SusanofO

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Well, Fukin' Troll, I think you deserve a HUG!

- Susan

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RE: Abused into submission - 4/13/2007 6:57:15 PM

FukinTroll

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bandit25

I hear that a LOT...must be a flaw in my character....

Good! For a second there I thought I was just a perv!

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RE: Abused into submission - 4/13/2007 6:59:03 PM

Aswad

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SusanofO,

There are some fairly good studies out there, like the Danish study I mentioned, which covered every male that was born in Denmark that year... about 43.000 or so, IIRC.

But, yes, there is every reason to be jaded about some of this stuff. There are so many agendas in the field that one couldn't even begin to call it science, in most cases.

Just consider the case of [Rind et al 1998]... They had the audacity to challenge the status quo by carefully picking a demographically representative sample and applying solid and rigorous science and math to it. In return, the paper drew fire from absolutely all directions, even getting the dubious "honour" of being the first paper to be unanimously condemned by congress.

The paper passed the initial peer review. It has been concluded by later reviews to be scientifically solid, and the lead reviewing body in the USA not only refused to review it on the grounds that it was too solid to merit another critical review, but also commented on just how concerned they were about people's reactions to the paper.

It's been listed as controversial many places, but it isn't any more controversial than scientific method itself. The entire controversy comes from people reading more into it than the authors put into it, as well as it giving solid, scientific refutation of the basic assumptions of an entire field of so-called "science", as well as systematically pointing out five well-known forms of bias that had come to infest every "acceptable" publication in the field.

I won't comment on the topic of the paper, as that might be in conflict with the ToS for CM, but the topic isn't really the point, either.

The point is this... The bonfires are here. Where are the descendants of the brave scientists who dared say the Earth was round, not flat, and that it orbited the Sun, not the other way around, ready to be burned for their beliefs?

There's more than one new witch-hunt in this day and age, and we have the hypocrisy to look back on the one in the middle-ages and say "that's how silly and barbaric they were back then", without thinking about the "witches" metaphorically roasting in our own back yards. At least in the middle ages, they had the excuse of ignorance; there is no such redeeming factor in this day and age.

They couldn't know better. We choose not to.

So, yeah, I'm rather skeptical about anything that comes out of that machine nowadays. Modern "science", in the fields that aren't very distant to people's lives and very easily quantifiable, is a parody. Although there are some good studies in these fields.

I don't have a background in research, but I've read approximately 100.000 pages of research papers on psychopharmacology and its use in the treatment of depression, for instance. And that certainly taught me a thing or two about healthy skepticism.

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RE: Abused into submission - 4/13/2007 6:59:12 PM

SusanofO

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Well, pervs deserve HUGs, too, IMO (good point, and right on topic). Me-thinks Fukin'Troll is waay, waay smarter than some may estimate.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 4/13/2007 7:03:44 PM >

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RE: Abused into submission - 4/13/2007 6:59:18 PM

FukinTroll

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

Well, Fukin' Troll, I think you deserve a HUG!

- Susan

Okay, now I am opting for romance. So I will beat this dead horse again...

Get keys
Get in car
Come over
Panties optional, but may be left as tribute.

Slurp!

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RE: Abused into submission - 4/13/2007 7:00:47 PM

CuriousLord

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterFireMaam

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

rape was an introduction. Into sex, into submission, into something outside the vanilla world.

Rape isn't an introduction to anything but negative things. What we do is not negative. Please don't imply that rape is a "hazing" event for us.

Master Fire

Ick! You cut my sentence part way through! It read: "For those I've had, rape was an introduction."

Rape has been an introduction for at least some. I imagine more. It is not romantic. It is not beautiful. It is not the ideal. It is, however, the truth.

This has been the truth for some of mine. I have heard it from the vanilla world, in news reports. I have learned it in Psyc101.

What do you mean by 'Introduction' ? By saying the word introduction, you are implying that rape has something to do with BDSM otherwise how on earth could it be an introduction. I think what you are trying to say is, by someone being raped they then then, therafter, took on a submissive mind set. I say NO WAY!!!

Yes, this is exactly what I'm saying.
It may seem odd to you, but I've known personally and well a few who have.
It has happened. I do not know the rate of incidience. I'm sorry if it scares you or seems odd. I must, however, tell you it's not your place to say another's wrong for trying to make the best of a bad situation with something you would accept others doing under normal circumstances.

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RE: Abused into submission - 4/13/2007 7:01:56 PM

SusanofO

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Fukin Troll: Okay...Done! (see what a perv I am? I wasn't even abused in childhood, either. I am sorry for that last remark, I am not meaning to get off topic,and it wasn't personal (at all), I am relating the whole "perv" idea to the topic generally (it might earn me an extra spanking, or something, but I do kinda like those, too, so I am not worried )....

I am a proud perv, I guess. So glad we can all "perv together" here at CM, too (Yay!).

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 4/13/2007 7:32:29 PM >

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RE: Abused into submission - 4/13/2007 7:04:13 PM

FukinTroll

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

Fukin Troll: Okay...Done! (see what a perv I am? I wasn't even abused in childhood, either. I am sorry for that last remark (it might earn me an extra spanking, or something)....

- Susan

susan you can't trick me I am too stupid. I know you are very passionate about these things because you have a HUUUGE heart and if you could you would remove such suffering from the world.

Slurp!

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RE: Abused into submission - 4/13/2007 7:07:35 PM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

You're confusing action with intent. Simulation requires similar action, not intention.

Actually, in this case, it requires a similar intent, or at least a similar mindspace and setting. Actions are not enough. We interpret experiences in a framework of mindspace and setting, and most of us later modify those interpretations based on feedback from society.

Rape is, quite simply put, an act of a sexual nature that takes place without prior or current consent, whether implicit or explicit. In BDSM, there is prior consent, even in the cases where there is an absence of current consent, and this prior consent is usually explicit.

Also, the trauma on rape is very dependent on the cultural context in which it occurs. It has been clearly shown that the trauma inherent in it are equivalent to violence of a comparable nature (i.e. same feeling of helplessness, same betrayal of trust if any, same level of pain and/or injury, etc.).

The majority of the trauma arises from dissonance, expectations and preconceptions of society, the "rape hype" engine ("omg, that's the worst thing that can happen"), etc. So, yeah, it's one of the worst things that can happen, but only because society makes it so.

In a BDSM setting, this trauma does not occur, even if all other conditions were equal, which they usually aren't. Nobody is going to go "shit, you were whipped?" or anything like that. There's no negative feedback loop. Instead, there is a caring Dom to help you recover, validate your experience on your terms, and to tell you that it's okay. And s/he is doing this with your prior consent, which makes a world of difference, even when the current consent is absent.

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RE: Abused into submission - 4/13/2007 7:08:08 PM

SusanofO

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Fukin Troll: Yeah, well I know you would, too, and ditto.

I like bdsm activity, I am not sure why. I am not convinced it matters, really, I guess. I mean I am curious in some ways, I am just not sure I will ever know the answer.

- Susan

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"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

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RE: Abused into submission - 4/13/2007 7:10:00 PM

Aswad

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CuriousLord,

At the risk of losing my Domliness for quoting a fantasy book...

"People will believe anything, either because they want it to be true, or because they fear it is."

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RE: Abused into submission - 4/13/2007 7:15:02 PM

FukinTroll

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

I mean I am curious in some ways, I am just not sure I will ever know the answer.

- Susan

Well muh slurp doll sometimes we don't need all the answers. I am just happy your here.

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RE: Abused into submission - 4/13/2007 7:15:48 PM

SusanofO

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Aswad: I agree. Very much. People need to see where they are confusing what they think they can realistically conclude, based on what is really there, as far as solid evidence (and to make a truly solid conclusion, IMO, many factors have to be considered -

- much as in the "are identitcal twins really the same as far as their eating, dating, etc. preferences, even if they have not seen eachother since birth?", etc, studies). I mean, one can correlate all kinds of things. Stating them as total causal factors is quite another matter.

I am not saying intuitive hunches don't have their place, in inducing people toward investigating something. I think the whole realm of the paranormal is interesting in that regard, beacuse "hunches" do lead to further investigation (although that's a completley different topic area, and whether or not, anyone believes any such studies are "valid").

Curiosity and hunches can be a very good thing, IMO, as far as that goes. Otherwise, any need for any investigation might just come to a stand-still - and then nobody finds out much, they simply assume stuff, instead).

BUT - I don't think people should dismiss entirely, any possible connection, between bdsm activity and past abuse - or welcome it hands-down, as a total causal factor and dismiss eveything else that could come into play - unless pretty darned certain.

I mean, if people really do want to find "the truth" it pays, IMO to be open to seeing different "causal factors", at least as far as possibilities, to begin with.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 4/13/2007 7:35:28 PM >

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And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

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RE: Abused into submission - 4/13/2007 7:21:07 PM

CuriousLord

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
Insofar as the ratios are similar, it is relevant to the topic. If there is no difference, there is no correlation, which strongly implies no causation.

Prove it. Cite it.
I have come to see that it is the opinion of some in this community that it should be assumed to be the same. This is willful ignorance. I will not use it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
Why assume that abuse has lead people to their interest in BDSM, rather than assuming that this bit is fairly independant, and that the only correlation is that some people find it may be a plausible connection, thus projecting a false causology?

In depth introviews.

Why assume- blindly, I might add- that it hasn't?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
Just saying... You did say that many of your subs/slaves denied any connection. Why assume that they're wrong, when there appears to be no correlation?

They didn't. Quite the opposite. They just don't like the subject.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

Some female slaves I have been with have come to BDSM due to rape. They have reasons. Reasons which are difficult to understand, but obviously strong ones for their level of commitment and dedication. I am trying to understand these reasons. The effects abuse has on one's view on BDSM.

If you don't understand their reasons, how can you conclued that it is "due to rape", even in their case? I can see going to BDSM as a way to overcome what happened, in various ways, but not as a general case. I don't see anything obvious about this.

It is due to rape in the respect rape led to it. Cause/effect. And, yes, some of them -are- using BDSM to overcome it.

God damn it. People are assuming I'm saying BDSM is evil. This assumption is freaking annoying.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
Again, people have tried to analyze BDSM and its purported relations to childhood (or later) traume in many different paradigms, with no solid results. That's how you end up with publications stating that Dommes have a narcissistic obsession with their own bodies and think their clitoris is a penis... yes, published recently...

I can't possibly understand how such researches might have trouble with open and honest inquary. It's not like people have been overly defensive.

But, seriously. You're telling me people fail to get good information, then go on to cite a grievance of the community against someone that may have once claimed to be interested in research, expecting me to understand- and, further, accept- the assumption nothing can come from thought. -No.-

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

These are unwelcome. Disregard them.

Oh. Sorry. I got the impression this was a public forum.

You're excused. I hope you remember there's a time and place for things in the future.

To help you out, please remember a park being pulic doesn't mean you can have a naked picnic, nor a public thread on how to remove a particular virus from your computer isn't an area for you to complain about your low tax return this year.

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RE: Abused into submission - 4/13/2007 7:23:12 PM

SusanofO

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FukinTroll: Thanks. Ditto, hon.I know you have a big heart.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 4/13/2007 7:30:56 PM >

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RE: Abused into submission - 4/13/2007 7:34:04 PM

bandit25

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Oh, you ARE a perv...I just hear that a lot.

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RE: Abused into submission - 4/13/2007 7:39:32 PM

CuriousLord

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

Yes, many have directly stated it. Some have had crying fits over it. It is not up for debate.

Like the Bible wasn't up for debate in Sunday school? It's a forum; everything is up for debate.

No, not everything is up for debate. Threads have specific agendas and guidelines.
This isn't a place for you to talk about Teletubbies, or to complain you can't get enough Viagra in your system to get it up, or to insult <insert name of random political or entertainment figure>.
This is quite important for you to realize.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

(snip for mods) girls masturbate 'consensually' when their daddies played with their private parts beforehand.

You find something offensive that they teach in Psyc 101 to college freshmen..?
The truth isn't always pretty, but you're not going to grow by trying to get it ignored.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
Not to start a flamewar or everything, and I'm not going to break the ToS again by going into detail on this in a post, but have you read [Rind et al 1998] ?

Already a flame war, apparently. I suppose I should stop here.

I was interested in answers to the posted questions. For reasons of offense or fear, some have continued to post oppositions, despite having absolutely nothing to contribute.

No, I haven't read '[Rind et al 1998]'. Is there a statute I should be aware of?

EDIT: Deleted a section that lacked the 'quote' tags.

I'm not replying to the rest. I'm tired of the flames.

< Message edited by CuriousLord -- 4/13/2007 7:45:55 PM >

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RE: Abused into submission - 4/13/2007 8:44:43 PM

Aswad

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