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Interesting stats on guns and crime - 4/20/2007 10:55:59 AM

selfbnd411

Posts: 598
Joined: 7/23/2005
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In today's LA Times, there's an op ed by James Q. Wilson called "Gun Control Isn't the Answer" (it's actually titled "In Defense of Guns" in my copy of the print edition). Two interesting quotes:

Quote 1
"If we want to guess by how much the U.S. murder rate would fall if civilians had no guns, we should begin by realizing — as criminologists Franklin Zimring and Gordon Hawkins have shown — that the non-gun homicide rate in this country is three times higher than the non-gun homicide rate in England. For historical and cultural reasons, Americans are a more violent people than the English, even when they can't use a gun. This fact sets a floor below which the murder rate won't be reduced even if, by some constitutional or political miracle, we became gun-free."

Quote 2
"AS FOR THE European disdain for our criminal culture, many of those countries should not spend too much time congratulating themselves. In 2000, the rate at which people were robbed or assaulted was higher in England, Scotland, Finland, Poland, Denmark and Sweden than it was in the United States. The assault rate in England was twice that in the United States. In the decade since England banned all private possession of handguns, the BBC reported that the number of gun crimes has gone up sharply.

Some of the worst examples of mass gun violence have also occurred in Europe. In recent years, 17 students and teachers were killed by a shooter in one incident at a German public school; 14 legislators were shot to death in Switzerland, and eight city council members were shot to death near Paris."

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-wilson20apr20,0,4514008.story?coll=la-opinion-center

Post #: 1

RE: Interesting stats on guns and crime - 4/20/2007 11:08:35 AM

Alumbrado

Posts: 5560
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So is he saying that it's people, not guns? That's just crazy talk.

(in reply to selfbnd411)

Post #: 2

RE: Interesting stats on guns and crime - 4/20/2007 11:08:56 AM

SusanofO

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Joined: 12/19/2005
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selfbnd411: Thanks for looking up some information one the gun-control issue, that widens the perspective, on whether gun-control reduces criminal behavior, generally. I think it's pretty interesting. And very pertinent.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 4/20/2007 11:17:31 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to selfbnd411)

Post #: 3

RE: Interesting stats on guns and crime - 4/20/2007 11:38:15 AM

thompsonx

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Joined: 10/1/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

So is he saying that it's people, not guns? That's just crazy talk.

What he said. Yeah.
thompson

(in reply to Alumbrado)

Post #: 4

RE: Interesting stats on guns and crime - 4/20/2007 11:48:30 AM

Pulpsmack

Posts: 394
Joined: 4/15/2004
From: Louisiana
Status: offline

I believe my rectum just prolapsed...

First, the LA TIMES allowed a piece called "Gun Control is NOT the Answer"?!!!!

Then...

quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

selfbnd411: Thanks for looking up some information one the gun-control issue, that widens the perspective, on whether gun-control reduces criminal behavior, generally. I think it's pretty interesting. And very pertinent.

A poster does not immediately discount a statistical submission and actually thanks the person who submitted it?!!

Oh today is a good day for the wicked to die, for indeed hell hath just frozen over...

(in reply to SusanofO)

Post #: 5

RE: Interesting stats on guns and crime - 4/20/2007 11:54:30 AM

Hime

Posts: 149
Joined: 10/31/2006
From: Vegas
Status: offline

Research the Washington DC murder rate and its gun laws.
It has the strictest gun-laws in the country and the highest murder rate.

Criminals don't give a shit about Laws and, they take advantage of a population that can't protect itself.

~ xoxo

(in reply to selfbnd411)

Post #: 6

RE: Interesting stats on guns and crime - 4/20/2007 11:59:15 AM

SusanofO

Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline

Pulpsmack:I thought it was nice someone introduced a reference that looked at the "larger environment" for the whole issue to be discussed within, if you will. Information re: How this has actually played out in other countries, in relation to crime as a whole, is an interesting POV to take, IMO, and also pretty relevant to the general topic.

I thought it was a very good start, to truly debating the issue of whether it works to reduce crime. And thanks for the compliment (if that is what it was). I am a big diplomacy fan.

P.S. I'm still not buying a gun.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 4/20/2007 12:20:54 PM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to Hime)

Post #: 7

RE: Interesting stats on guns and crime - 4/20/2007 12:21:14 PM

Vendaval

Posts: 10297
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline

Thank you for posting this information. After a tragedy such
as Virginia Tech, our society asks many questions and searches
for possible solutions. Open discussion is vital to a democracy.

_____________________________

"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE

http://KinkMeet.co.uk

(in reply to selfbnd411)

Post #: 8

RE: Interesting stats on guns and crime - 4/20/2007 12:33:37 PM

Casie

Posts: 450
Joined: 1/5/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: selfbnd411

In today's LA Times, there's an op ed by James Q. Wilson called "Gun Control Isn't the Answer" (it's actually titled "In Defense of Guns" in my copy of the print edition). Two interesting quotes:

Quote 1
"If we want to guess by how much the U.S. murder rate would fall if civilians had no guns, we should begin by realizing — as criminologists Franklin Zimring and Gordon Hawkins have shown — that the non-gun homicide rate in this country is three times higher than the non-gun homicide rate in England. For historical and cultural reasons, Americans are a more violent people than the English, even when they can't use a gun. This fact sets a floor below which the murder rate won't be reduced even if, by some constitutional or political miracle, we became gun-free."

Quote 2
"AS FOR THE European disdain for our criminal culture, many of those countries should not spend too much time congratulating themselves. In 2000, the rate at which people were robbed or assaulted was higher in England, Scotland, Finland, Poland, Denmark and Sweden than it was in the United States. The assault rate in England was twice that in the United States. In the decade since England banned all private possession of handguns, the BBC reported that the number of gun crimes has gone up sharply.

Some of the worst examples of mass gun violence have also occurred in Europe. In recent years, 17 students and teachers were killed by a shooter in one incident at a German public school; 14 legislators were shot to death in Switzerland, and eight city council members were shot to death near Paris."

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-wilson20apr20,0,4514008.story?coll=la-opinion-center

*Falls on floor gasping for air* I cannot believe this came from the LA times!!! Not anything I didn't already know. Just validates the logical thinker. Getting rid of guns will not do a darn thing to stop violent crime. These are criminals the obviously have no respect for the law.They are Criminals plain and simple. And personally if I were gonna die as a result of a violent crime I would much perfer being shot by a gun and dying quickly (in most cases) vs being stabbed, beaten, or strangled to death.

(in reply to selfbnd411)

Post #: 9

RE: Interesting stats on guns and crime - 4/20/2007 12:52:15 PM

WilliamWizer

Posts: 223
Joined: 3/19/2007
Status: offline

The problem are not the guns. the problem are the persons. if the murders don't have guns they will kill with knifes or with broken bottles or with whatever any other thing that can be used to kill (even their own hands) they can find.

_____________________________

There's only two rules for a sub:
- she can do anything her Master didn't forbid her.
- she only needs to do what her Master told her to do.

(in reply to Casie)

Post #: 10

RE: Interesting stats on guns and crime - 4/20/2007 2:05:29 PM

thompsonx

Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pulpsmack

I believe my rectum just prolapsed...

First, the LA TIMES allowed a piece called "Gun Control is NOT the Answer"?!!!!

Then...

quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

selfbnd411: Thanks for looking up some information one the gun-control issue, that widens the perspective, on whether gun-control reduces criminal behavior, generally. I think it's pretty interesting. And very pertinent.

A poster does not immediately discount a statistical submission and actually thanks the person who submitted it?!!

Oh today is a good day for the wicked to die, for indeed hell hath just frozen over...

Pulpsmack:
Get a cork for your tail pipe and with time it will heal. While I would no more accuse the LA Times of being fair and ballanced than I would faux news, have seen them slip up more than once and allow a piece like this. I would agree with the first part of your statement but as for the latter part I would not get your ice skates out just yet.
thompson

(in reply to Pulpsmack)

Post #: 11

RE: Interesting stats on guns and crime - 4/20/2007 2:32:03 PM

meatcleaver

Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: selfbnd411

Quote 2
"AS FOR THE European disdain for our criminal culture, many of those countries should not spend too much time congratulating themselves. In 2000, the rate at which people were robbed or assaulted was higher in England, Scotland, Finland, Poland, Denmark and Sweden than it was in the United States. The assault rate in England was twice that in the United States. In the decade since England banned all private possession of handguns, the BBC reported that the number of gun crimes has gone up sharply.

Some of the worst examples of mass gun violence have also occurred in Europe. In recent years, 17 students and teachers were killed by a shooter in one incident at a German public school; 14 legislators were shot to death in Switzerland, and eight city council members were shot to death near Paris."

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-wilson20apr20,0,4514008.story?coll=la-opinion-center

Every country collates crimes and defines violent crime differently. The European Union has been trying to get its member countries to define violent crime the same so it can compare each country against eachother, at the moment it acknowledges that the statistics are meaningless. Most countries are rssisting this because governing parties use statistics for political reasons. It was mentioned on another thread that since Britain (Tony Blair) has adopted American market theories for setting police targets, the statistics are even more inaccurate because everyone from the Home Office to individual police forces are fixing statistics for their own interests. I pointed out in another thread that the only reliable statistics are murder statistics because there is a body that can't be buried in the out tray or swept under the carpet.

As for Switzerland, the LA Times reporter really ought to do his homework. Switzerland along with Finland are the only two countries in western Europe or the EU that have unlimited access to firearms and France is relatively more liberal with guns than most other European countries so your LA reporter has shot himself in the foot on that one when it comes to gun cointrol not making society any safer. One off masacres happen but the accumulation of dead by firearms is far greater in the US than in societies where there is strict gun control. Britain and Holland having the strictest laws and having the least gun crime and gun fatalities. Take in Japan with their strict laws and you have three countries with strict laws having the least gun crime.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 4/20/2007 2:41:55 PM >

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to selfbnd411)

Post #: 12

RE: Interesting stats on guns and crime - 4/20/2007 3:03:46 PM

seeksfemslave

Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline

At the risk of doing a little bit of America bashing I must point out the following...

A common defense for having the populace walking abroad armed to the teeth is that people who are inclined to commit murder and mayhem will do so whether carrying a gun or not, therefore law abiding citizens need arms to protect themselves from the "bad guys"

The question that might be asked is why are there so many "bad guys" in the US. ?

I know from discussions on other Web sites that many Americans dont know .and will not believe that Europeans dont shoot one another at the same rate as do .Americans.

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 13

RE: Interesting stats on guns and crime - 4/20/2007 3:25:12 PM

Alumbrado

Posts: 5560
Status: offline

Maybe someone should do a little research of their own before calling James Q. Wilson an 'LA Times reporter'.

(in reply to seeksfemslave)

Post #: 14

RE: Interesting stats on guns and crime - 4/20/2007 3:46:48 PM

Real0ne

Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

Thank you for posting this information. After a tragedy such
as Virginia Tech, our society asks many questions and searches
for possible solutions. Open discussion is vital to a democracy.

NOT a democracy a republic!!! come on!

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Vendaval)

Post #: 15

RE: Interesting stats on guns and crime - 4/20/2007 3:49:43 PM

Real0ne

Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

At the risk of doing a little bit of America bashing I must point out the following...

A common defense for having the populace walking abroad armed to the teeth is that people who are inclined to commit murder and mayhem will do so whether carrying a gun or not, therefore law abiding citizens need arms to protect themselves from the "bad guys"

The question that might be asked is why are there so many "bad guys" in the US. ?

I know from discussions on other Web sites that many Americans dont know .and will not believe that Europeans dont shoot one another at the same rate as do .Americans.

beacuse we have the policy of give us your dregs and lowlifes etc... welcome to america

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to seeksfemslave)

Post #: 16

RE: Interesting stats on guns and crime - 4/20/2007 3:51:33 PM

Real0ne

Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline

now look what you have done meats daughter isnt going to be able to come here now!! and she wanted to so badly too!

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to selfbnd411)

Post #: 17

RE: Interesting stats on guns and crime - 4/20/2007 3:53:29 PM

NorthernGent

Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

Thank you for posting this information. After a tragedy such
as Virginia Tech, our society asks many questions and searches
for possible solutions. Open discussion is vital to a democracy.

NOT a democracy a republic!!! come on!

Real0ne, a bit of a thread hijack here, but out of interest, what is the difference in practice.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to Real0ne)

Post #: 18

RE: Interesting stats on guns and crime - 4/20/2007 3:57:03 PM

seeksfemslave

Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline

About immigration to the US
Give me you tired and huddled masses

Europe is vomiting and America is ... cant remember the rest

Schizoid or what

(in reply to Real0ne)

Post #: 19

RE: Interesting stats on guns and crime - 4/20/2007 3:59:09 PM

His1kitten

Posts: 53
Joined: 4/2/2007
Status: offline

i don't believe banning all guns is the answer.There are something like 192 million handguns owned by Americans today, that being said there is no way all of them could be taken away and disposed of in reality. i do believe that a total ban on semi-automatic and automatic weapons needs to be done. More indepth background checks for those wanting to purchase a gun. Something needs to be done.

As to the point someone tried to make that if the killers didn't have guns they would use something else, i would take my chances with something else.

(in reply to Real0ne)

Post #: 20

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