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RE: I know better than your Master does - 4/21/2007 9:02:57 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

...How one can presume to know what my deepest needs are, better than the one who studies me daily and knows everything about me since I was born, is preposterous...



actually, this slave keeps that very thought in mind when responding to posts here...it shapes her response to most threads, even the one you are referencing.
 
this slave tries hard to put herself in someone else's moccasins before offering advice, but this slave could never know someone else's "truth"(thanks Don Miguel!) or perceive it in the same way, so the best she can do is draw on her own experiences and relationship with Master...which are very unique.
 
this slave finds herself at odds with much of what is posted here as she can't relate to the struggle of submission, the desire to dominate something at some point, the fulfillment one gets from a paycheck or the thrill of CBT.

Often folks assume that they know others better than those folks know themselves.  analysts make a mint off of it. 
 
Being a member of the human race DOES NOT mean we are all identical in our experiences, our histories, desires, motivations and reactions to various stimuli.
 
Edited to add:
From the other side of the flogger...
The inherent problem with; "what should I do...", or "my Master/slave doesn't..." is you can't get a usable answer. The most honest poser of the question still doesn't give all the factors, and obviously doesn't give the accurate perspective of the antagonist. If they did there would be no reason the question is asked in the first place.

The problem with the "answers" provided is twofold. Most of the time you don't want to hear any answer that you didn't want. The other problem is no one should be telling you what to do. At best you can get someone else's perspective and try to fit it into your situation. Most of the time though, you get a round peg for a square hole but you don't even realize it. The intent of the "good advise" or perspective encapsulates a life. You are getting only molecule thick slice, of a ocean deep existence. That fact should also be remembered if you think the perspective or advise is "bad", but there is little hope in everyone bringing these ideas into the read. Add the fact that the writer's and reader's terminology and word usage may not be the same. The writer could be using definition 3 of word and the reader definition 1 and the point missed. Written word without direct interface and dialog is a poor communication form.

My common response to posing a core "what should I do about..." relationship question in an open forum is that the relationship is over, but the poser just doesn't want to accept it. What deep insight or bit of information gleaned from the good folks you don't know, other than in an internet persona costume, is going to be beneficial considering the two issues I raised?

Most of the times these crossroad issues have their foundation in the beginning. Compromised goals, desires, feelings, or beliefs are easily put to the side in order to get into a relationship. The fuse was lit. How long it takes for the bomb to go off depends on how long the initial rationalization lasts and how big the compromise.

It's said that relationships fail because people change. That is wrong. Most times they fail because people revert back to who they really are.



< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 4/21/2007 9:25:30 AM >

(in reply to ownedgirlie)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: I know better than your Master does - 4/21/2007 9:04:43 AM   
dawntreader


Posts: 3045
Joined: 11/23/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

Dawntreader, only seems to happen whether a person brings issues here or not.  I mentioned sleeping on the floor once, as a passing reference with no "issue" attached to it whatsoever, and I received a handful of email on the other side, telling me how abusive my Master was.  There is a lot of uninvited commentary that occurs as well as invited. 

To the others, thank you for your kind comments.


ownedgirlie,
i have since read the thread that was a catalyst for this one and stand even firmer by my gut response to this thread and please note my response was not made with any malicious intent but complete objectivity. i am not defending any one who claims to "know it all or what is best" only the consequences of posting here.
 
i do not know the 3 individuals personally but have admired their relationship thru these message boards; twice is  very dear to someone that is very dear to me and she and i have had some comunication on the other side. The whole thread saddens me but it appears as i suspected - a communication problem, hence it coming to these boards before it was discussed with all parties involved.
 
As to comments we make in threads and later get c-mails about - that is utter rudeness and i totally agree with you, i have recieved those myself and usually just block the person.
 
i live by a simple code of behavior..."Choice = Consequence"  it is my opinion that when we chose to post anything here whether a problem or a comment, we should be prepared for the consequential replies, good or bad. we can not control how others react only how we chose to react in response.
 
This being said, my heart goes out to the entire house of PhoenixRisen
 
      j

< Message edited by dawntreader -- 4/21/2007 9:09:03 AM >

_____________________________

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There is a war going on for your mind...if you are thinking, you are winning~
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(in reply to ownedgirlie)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: I know better than your Master does - 4/21/2007 9:05:55 AM   
petal7


Posts: 28
Status: offline 		It's funny that I found this thread this morning because I was thinking about this very thing this morning.  A few days ago, a submissive emailed me to inquire about a punishment I mentioned in my journal.  I answered her openly and candidly and found out that the reason she was asking was because her Master does not "punish."  She was longing for that.

I crafted my response to her and asked my Master for help so that when I replied, I was clear that just because her Master doesn't discipline in the same way that mine does, it doesn't mean he is wrong.  Everyone has a different style.  I looked over this message again and again for any sign that it might offend her Master, or even make him think that I was critical of his style.  I explained that not knowing all of the details of what infractions she was seeking punishment for, it was difficult to see the whole picture.  I suggested that perhaps her Master had a different goal in mind, or that he wanted to see what effort she would put in, or even that he didn't know of her desire for such punishment.  I urged her to communicate with him and not to make any preconceived judgements about this area.

So imagine my surprise when she wrote back to tell me that her Master had decided my punishmnet was excessive and harsh.  It was amusing, but actually made me want to ask Master for one extra session of punishment just to remind myself that the only two opinions that matter are mine and Master's.

I try to remind myself that everyone has an opinion, but that I don't have to take anything to heart.  I take all of it into consideration, try to gleen the pearls of wisdom and amuse myself with the rest.  Good luck!

(in reply to ownedgirlie)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: I know better than your Master does - 4/21/2007 9:09:51 AM   
MistressSandra2U


Posts: 33
Joined: 3/20/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

I mentioned sleeping on the floor once, as a passing reference with no "issue" attached to it whatsoever, and I received a handful of email on the other side, telling me how abusive my Master was. 



What is so abusive about a slave sleeping on the floor? I would be very dismissive of anyone that told my slave he was being abused because he's had to sleep on floors. A carpeted floor can be too luxurious if his behavior is spoiled to the point he deserved to be in discomfort to balance things out.

(in reply to ownedgirlie)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: I know better than your Master does - 4/21/2007 9:21:55 AM   
UR2Badored


Posts: 506
Joined: 2/3/2007
Status: offline 		People express opinions differently for a variety of reasons. Okay, I realize I am being vague--duh! I do not  perceive a perspective as rude, because I do not happen to agree with it.  Then again, I thought that is why we posted a question in the first place.  Perhaps some of us post to get a variety of responses and perspectives (in theory).  If I am understanding Aileen correctly, I agree with her that some people unconsciously or consciously want validation for their own viewpoint and can easily get ticked or offended. Some dont get offended at different perspectives even if they seek validation--( so many variants as they are viewpoints or viewpoints on the "proper" way to post or how each wishes to receive information). I could see how seeking validation would be very frustrating for some people on these boards.  We all are conditioned to our own preferences. However, that will not change the fact that people posts with their own value and beliefs in mind and not necessarily catering to others (impossible?). Sometimes people post negative perspectives strictly for counter reactions and not for help at all (the list goes on). Regardless of one's own perception, others will view a topic independantly, and therefore people may be constantly "irked" by or "irk" others in regards to their view points and/or their posting style --such is life. 

< Message edited by UR2Badored -- 4/21/2007 9:33:04 AM >

(in reply to Aileen68)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: I know better than your Master does - 4/21/2007 9:29:23 AM   
MellowSir


Posts: 260
Joined: 4/17/2007
Status: offline 		I agree with dawntreader and fully expect that there are those who will be critical of me as well as those who are supportive, I do welcome constructive criticism, and no master is master of all things, what one dominant may excel at, another may be lacking and vice-versa. Criticism should be expected, not condemnation.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: I know better than your Master does - 4/21/2007 9:44:55 AM   
thetammyjo


Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline 		The basic problem is that if someone posts on a public forum and asks for advice, they will get advice. If they don't want to be told how the way they do or don't do things measures up in others' eyes, why post questions or share information.

Sharing anything online automatically means that you've opened up yourself to "you are right/wrong" sort of responses as well as simply sharing similar experiences, getting questions, or being ignored.

I'll also say that when someone posts and ask if this is normal, common, proper, whatever, they have really answered their own question by posting. If they were confident or comfortable then they probably wouldn't be asking the rest of us. If you aren't confident or comfortable in your relationship then I do thinks it's good to re-evaluate it but strangers are not the person who need to do this work, it's the person posting and usually their partner as well.

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to ownedgirlie)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: I know better than your Master does - 4/21/2007 9:53:45 AM   
imthatacheyouhav


Posts: 1259
Joined: 4/16/2007
Status: offline 		i am at a loss for the need to be rude, biting and/ or sarcastic. i just dont get it, why be mean? the OP stated thoughts clearly and without any attacks. Like this for instance someone added to a different post i'm not going to jump to any conclusions but i think this was probably a UNnessary dig to the poster of this thread
*Disclaimer: My posts are from my experiences, views, opinions and thoughts. YMMV*
opinions are great, points of view.... can be enriching. sarcasm and just plain meanness......well its just not nice is all

(in reply to thetammyjo)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: I know better than your Master does - 4/21/2007 9:57:03 AM   
StellaByStarlite


Posts: 790
Joined: 2/10/2007
Status: offline 		I'm going to go out on a limb here and just say that message board posters in general have a tendency of being overly critical of anything.

If you just sit back and browse through the threads, you'll notice a clear pattern. The argumentative and rabble-rousing threads get a lot more attention then the benign ones.

I mean you can post about any innocent subject matter you can think of, and there's still a huge chance of somebody disagreeing, misinterpreting, or whatever. That's essentially what the boards are for... stating your opinion in a safer "environment".

People get into really heated debates about what I would personally consider to be silly and absurd stuff. But hey, it's a message board. Of course posters are going to state their opinions on an individual's relationship. It's a hot topic, after all, and soooo ripe for confrontation. =)

(in reply to MellowSir)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: I know better than your Master does - 4/21/2007 9:59:10 AM   
MagiksSlave


Posts: 2768
Joined: 9/11/2006
Status: offline 		I agree a lot with what has been said and while I have gotten this "I know better the  your Master" thing on the other side when it wasnt invited when it is uninvited I totaly agree, but like others have said you come here and you are ASKING others  to give advise or whatever then you are inviteing this and then you have little right to complain about it.

Magik's slave

_____________________________

If you’re going through hell keep on moving
don't slow down
if you’re scared dont show it
you might get out
before the devil even knows your there.


-Rodney Atkins-



(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: I know better than your Master does - 4/21/2007 10:25:52 AM   
sublizzie


Posts: 1252
Joined: 5/26/2004
Status: offline 		I try not to post to the kinds of threads where it is clear that there is bashing going on. Sometimes I slip up and indulge my mean-spirited side and join with the crowd, but I try not to.

Too often there is much more to the story than what we hear. With the thread that started this one, it was clear that the people involved were all dear to the hearts of those who are on these boards a lot. It made it much more difficult for people who knew them, in real-time or on the boards, to make blanket statements. In a lot of ways that's a good thing. It makes us all step back and realize that we need to understand there are multiple people involved in any given situation so there are multiple viewpoints.

As I've read the various threads here over the past few years, I've come to realize which posters will bash whatever comes along. I've also come to realize that some posters very seldom bash others so when they do I take notice. Generally they are doing their bashing for a very good reason.

Sometimes information gathering is helpful and this can be a good place to gather a wide variety of viewpoints. Sometimes information gathering is just hurtful. Some topics I would never start a post about because it would become a bashing fest because they are not popular topics (not against TOS, just against the prevailing judgement of the posters who "count").

(in reply to ownedgirlie)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: I know better than your Master does - 4/21/2007 11:10:10 AM   
Celeste43


Posts: 3066
Joined: 2/4/2006
From: NYS
Status: offline 		Because frequently a master doesn't bother to take more information into account. Indeed there are dynamics on this board where the s is not permitted to give him additional information. So if he is deliberately not learning enough to handle a situation, where else can a sub go but to other people in an attempt to salvage a relationship?

Of course we can only advise based on the info given so our advice may indeed be faulty but certainly if 50 people offer 50 different viewpoints the odds are likely that something one person says will resonate with them.

(in reply to sublizzie)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: I know better than your Master does - 4/21/2007 12:15:44 PM   
agirl


Posts: 4530
Joined: 6/14/2004
Status: offline 		This is precisely why I wouldn't post about a personal issue.

I don't want advice and opinions from people that don't know me or my life situation.  It wouldn't be helpful if I did, because there's no way I could post enough background to make any feedback worthwhile; it would be a waste of everyone's time. In the same vein, I don't think I'm qualified to give advice to anyone, apart from my children.

When folk post about problems, they want *something*......and many times it's not opinions or advice they want or are in need of.

agirl










(in reply to ownedgirlie)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: I know better than your Master does - 4/21/2007 12:30:01 PM   
thetammyjo


Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: imthatacheyouhav

i am at a loss for the need to be rude, biting and/ or sarcastic. i just dont get it, why be mean? the OP stated thoughts clearly and without any attacks. Like this for instance someone added to a different post i'm not going to jump to any conclusions but i think this was probably a UNnessary dig to the poster of this thread
*Disclaimer: My posts are from my experiences, views, opinions and thoughts. YMMV*
opinions are great, points of view.... can be enriching. sarcasm and just plain meanness......well its just not nice is all



*arches eyebrow*

I don't believe I was mean or sarcastic. I believe I was explaining the basic problem that happens whenever we post online.

If someone does not want advice, don't ask for it.

If someone does not want an opinion, don't post -- just posting opens the door for others to post as well.

There are ways to post, to offer advice, and to express opinions that are polite but it is unrealistic to think that everyone online is going to be polite. If someone is impolite or attacks then all we can do is either repond (which only feeds folks who love to get any response at all) or we can ignore them (thus depriving them of their "food").

It's a very common complaint I've seen on this website that someone will post, not get the answers they were hoping for, then turn away and attack those people or complain loudly that people are judging them. Before oneself into that situation, I think it is wise to consider whether or not to make the post in the first place.

I'm sorry if my common sense and what I believe is a realistic approach seems rude or sarcastic.

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to imthatacheyouhav)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: I know better than your Master does - 4/21/2007 12:32:17 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		Well frankly, most doms out there are really stupid and sucky, so chances are I *do* know better than they do.

However, I never let that interfere with "consent."  Unlike most people in the scene who are willing to pay endless amounts of lip service to the term and then throw it overboard whenever it seems convenient- I respect another adults right to informed consent above ALL else. 

So if someone sincerely tells me it's what works for them...there's nothing for me to say.  I'll give advice, I'll give perspective, but I respect them too much to deny them their own choices for themselves.

Mostly because it would be pretty much the worst offense I find people do to ME when they tell me I don't know what's best for me or that my choices or wrong.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to ownedgirlie)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: I know better than your Master does - 4/21/2007 12:32:21 PM   
CreativeDominant


Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

I’ve been pondering this thought for some time, and the “Anti sub drop” thread finally provoked me enough to write about it.

Those who have read the thread witnessed a slave who brought an issue to the board, only to be told by the masses what is right and wrong for her, and how her owners ought to be treating her.  We see this time and time again – not just in these forums but in life in general.  Everyone seems to know what is best for everyone else.

Interestingly, we also see threads that talk about transparency and journaling, and what great steps a Master/Mistress/Dominant takes to know his/her submissive/slave.  How great that is, we all say, because who else can best know the submissive and who else can best direct him/her.

I have been the recipient of “I know better than your Master” comments, both on this forum and in private conversations.  It is a natural response for people to view others based on their own knowledge, history, experiences, and value systems.  I’ve often quoted Don Miguel Ruiz’s “The Four Agreements” where he talks about each of us having our “story” and viewing the world and others solely from that story, without greater understanding of those whom we are viewing.

I find myself baffled and sometimes offended (although not as much anymore) at a phenomenon I personally experience on occasion.  I am in a long term, intense, intimate relationship, in which the man who owns me has taken a LOT of time and effort to know every  nook and cranny of my mind and heart.  He knows me better than anyone in my life has known me, because he has found it that important to.  He has taught me to know myself equally well.  And he has taken this knowledge of me to make the best decisions for me, based on what he knows my needs to be.  Yet those who have only engaged with me at far minimum levels presume to know that is right for me, more than he does.  Their comments, judgments, suggestions, and flat out rudeness is based on their view of themselves, and has nothing to do with the intimacies of my heart.  How one can presume to know what my deepest needs are, better than the one who studies me daily and knows everything about me since I was born, is preposterous.

In the other thread, some folks actually admitted had they not known the OP better, they would have advised differently.  I wonder if, and I truly hope, we can all think twice before screaming “abuse!” at someone, or before we tell a slave her Master doesn’t care about her, or before we accuse someone of “chest thumping” and acting ape-like (as said in yet another thread last night) for managing his slave the way he sees is best, simply because we don’t understand that form of management.

I never thought I would post a "rant" on these boards, but one of the reasons I held off writing this thread is because there really isn’t a question to ask here. 

How about – can we simply be more aware and thoughtful, that what is right for us is not necessarily the right way for others?  We say that all the time, but our reactions to people really show otherwise.

Enjoy your day.


I don't know that anyone can honestly say that they "KNOW BETTER" than another's master unless the master is showing clear signs of abusive behavior...and we all know how easily that is defined, don't we? 

I think that the best someone can do is offer up their own perspective and make it as clear as possible that it is their perspective.  They can offer up their thoughts on how they would handle the situation but the OP has to keep in mind that the other person responding is just that...another person, either dominant or submissive...and not the OP themselves with their life, their background, their thoughts.

I have expressed my opinions about certain matters and I have always tried...though like others on here, I will be the first to say I probably have not always succeeded...not to be super-critical of another and to be courteous even while offering criticism.  Criticism can be constructive or destructive...I hope that my perspective always comes across as constructive when I engage in criticism but I am world-worn enough to know that it probably is not, depending on how far my viewpoint is from another's.

(in reply to ownedgirlie)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: I know better than your Master does - 4/21/2007 12:33:10 PM   
thetammyjo


Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: agirl

This is precisely why I wouldn't post about a personal issue.

I don't want advice and opinions from people that don't know me or my life situation. It wouldn't be helpful if I did, because there's no way I could post enough background to make any feedback worthwhile; it would be a waste of everyone's time. In the same vein, I don't think I'm qualified to give advice to anyone, apart from my children.

When folk post about problems, they want *something*......and many times it's not opinions or advice they want or are in need of.

agirl












I agree. They may lack the words to say what it is that they want or use words that suggest they want something that isn't really what they need. It's difficult to find the best way to word things especially when one is upset.

I think a lot of posts that ask for advice or opinions that then become the OP complaining about what they got back from others are posted in higher states of emotional distress than what is necessarily best for communication.

< Message edited by thetammyjo -- 4/21/2007 12:34:18 PM >

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to agirl)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: I know better than your Master does - 4/21/2007 12:41:42 PM   
imthatacheyouhav


Posts: 1259
Joined: 4/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

*arches eyebrow*

I don't believe I was mean or sarcastic.


i don't believe you were either. Not even alittle.... i just was commenting on the fact that it does happen and i just dont understand it.

(in reply to thetammyjo)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: I know better than your Master does - 4/21/2007 2:40:02 PM   
agirl


Posts: 4530
Joined: 6/14/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

quote:

ORIGINAL: agirl

This is precisely why I wouldn't post about a personal issue.

I don't want advice and opinions from people that don't know me or my life situation. It wouldn't be helpful if I did, because there's no way I could post enough background to make any feedback worthwhile; it would be a waste of everyone's time. In the same vein, I don't think I'm qualified to give advice to anyone, apart from my children.

When folk post about problems, they want *something*......and many times it's not opinions or advice they want or are in need of.

agirl

/quote]

I agree. They may lack the words to say what it is that they want or use words that suggest they want something that isn't really what they need. It's difficult to find the best way to word things especially when one is upset.

I think a lot of posts that ask for advice or opinions that then become the OP complaining about what they got back from others are posted in higher states of emotional distress than what is necessarily best for communication.


Yes.......I've written mails to M when I've been in emotional distress and just taken enough of a breather to put it into *drafts*. When I've re-read them the following morning, it's been quite an eye-opener to see how muddled my thought processes are. It can be quite embarrassing to read them back with a fresh and rational mind.

agirl






(in reply to thetammyjo)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: I know better than your Master does - 4/21/2007 2:42:54 PM   
MadRabbit


Posts: 3460
Joined: 8/9/2006
Status: offline 		Unfortanely thats the nature of the beast to a degree.

We are all using an innacurate communication tool to try and communicate and provide helpful (or at least I hope helpful) advice.

Assumptions and putting 2 and 2 together are a necessary part of using the Internet because of the lack of information and the fact that the majority of us dont know anything about each other past what is provided in these little boxes. Its also incredibly easy to take something someone says in a completely wrong way because of the lack of vocal tones and body language (On a person to person level, spoken word is a smaller percetange then these two things when it comes to how we communicate). Just as easy as it is for someone with poor writing skills to completely express themselves in the wrong way. Like the Bible, its all subect to interpretation.

If we were to completely remove all the assuming and guessing we have to do on these forums, then we might as well shut down the forums since very little would be accomplished or discussed at the end of the day.

It falls to the people reading the forums to take everything with a grain of salt, use the different opinions to think in different ways, and draw a conclusion themselves as to what is right or wrong.



_____________________________

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The Unpolitically Correct Lifestyle Definitions

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(in reply to ownedgirlie)
Profile   Post #: 40
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