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Can you serve God and your Master? - 4/21/2007 11:51:52 AM   
Aslanemperor


Posts: 108
Joined: 4/17/2005
Status: offline 		This is a question that I've personally battled with, and I'm guessing other Christians on the site are in a similar bind.  I decided I should post this and maybe help some people out.  I believe that the answer is yes, and I will use scripture to support my descision.  Keep in mind that most Christians will adamently disagree, but then, most Christians know only the rumors about BDSM and don't question anything that a preacher tells them, even if it contradicts God's holy word.
So, here goes:
Is slavery condoned in the Bible?  Yes.  The Bible not only condones it, it gives direction to both Masters and their slaves.  Here is some examples throughout the Bible:
It's ok for a master to punish his slaves, and to view his slave as property:
Exodus 21:20-21
"20 "If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, 21 but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property."
Even priests where permited to purchase slaves:
Leviticus 22:11
"11 But if a priest buys a slave with money, or if a slave is born in his household, that slave may eat his food."
Slaves are expected to obey their masters, even after Christ:
Colossians 3:22 
"22Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to win their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord."
Christians can own slaves as long as they treat them well:
Colossians 4:1
"1Masters, provide your slaves with what is right and fair, because you know that you also have a Master in heaven."

When I searched the NIV for passages on slaves, I got 164 results!  God doesn't try to say that we can't have slaves, or even serve an earthly master, but you will find that most Christian preachers will try to make you think that the Bible goes against the BDSM lifestyle.  It doesn't.  Therefore, don't be intimidated and don't be worried about your afterlife.  You have seen the Bible is pretty clear that there is nothing wrong with the owning of slaves.
I might note that there are even scriptures which say that it's ok for a man to sleep with his slave without marrying her because she is his property.  You can be secure in knowlege that you can in fact live out the desires that God placed in your heart.  I hope I've reassured some Masters and slaves out there.  Thanks.
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RE: Can you serve God and your Master? - 4/21/2007 11:54:51 AM   
Suleiman


Posts: 1127
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Status: offline 		::in a whisper:: Pssst! Nobody tell him about the satanic initiation ritual you have to undergo to be confirmed as a twue mathter!

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Think of my verbosity as a sort of litmus test for our relationship. I write in a manner identical to how I speak and how I think. If you can not cope with what I have written here, it is probably for the best if we go our separate ways.

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RE: Can you serve God and your Master? - 4/21/2007 11:56:49 AM   
Aslanemperor


Posts: 108
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Status: offline 		LOL!

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RE: Can you serve God and your Master? - 4/21/2007 12:00:15 PM   
imthatacheyouhav


Posts: 1259
Joined: 4/16/2007
Status: offline 		my Master serves God...i serve God and my Master...its not been an issue for me as of yet.

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RE: Can you serve God and your Master? - 4/21/2007 12:03:16 PM   
Aslanemperor


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Suleiman

::in a whisper:: Pssst! Nobody tell him about the satanic initiation ritual you have to undergo to be confirmed as a twue mathter!

OH MY GOD!!!  that is freaky!  That was your 666th post!  And you're talking about satanic rituals!  Thats creaping me out now that I noticed it!

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RE: Can you serve God and your Master? - 4/21/2007 12:13:18 PM   
dawntreader


Posts: 3045
Joined: 11/23/2006
Status: offline 		i know a master who found christ and struggled with the dilema of " serving two masters" for a while before he decided  that anything of the flesh was devil orchestrated and released his 3 slaves and joined god's army...and according to him, i am on the path of death...

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RE: Can you serve God and your Master? - 4/21/2007 12:13:22 PM   
junecleaver


Posts: 1145
Joined: 4/6/2005
Status: offline 		 I'd like a reference for 'scriptures which say that it's ok for a man to sleep with his slave without marrying her because she is his property.'

It must be right beside those verses that talk about stoning unwed mothers and burn homosexuals alive?




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"No one will ever win the battle of the sexes; there's too much fraternizing with the enemy. "
--Henry A. Kissinger

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RE: Can you serve God and your Master? - 4/21/2007 12:16:00 PM   
BondageTopJere


Posts: 170
Joined: 8/22/2006
Status: offline 		By and large, I'm actually suprise to see a lack of christians in BDSM circles, at least male doms/fem subs.  A D/s relationship is suprisingly similiar to the kind of relationship that the church espouses as the correct way to live. Been awhile awhile since I went to a wedding, but isn't there something in the grooms vows "to cherish and protect" and the brides " Honor and obey"? Is it not expected of christian men to be the head of their household, to ensure that their family is taken care of in all ways? Is it not expected of christian women to see to to the maintenance of the house, relieve the stress that life can cause to their husband, to bow down to his will in all matters?

Sounds to me a like one kind of very D/s relationship.  Religion is suprisingly good way to analogize D/s to people, especially catholic ones, as the overarching mental and emotional feelings are very similiar in intent and often in form.

By and large, there have been times when I wish the impression of the BDSM realm wasn't one of floggers, chains, and black leather.  Most of us here enjoy those things, but their... physical props, tools;  they hold no meaning in of themselves.  Its the way in which they're employed is what gives them meaning, and rather unfortunately is the thing people outside the D/s realm concentrate on.

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RE: Can you serve God and your Master? - 4/21/2007 12:16:18 PM   
Suleiman


Posts: 1127
Joined: 9/9/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aslanemperor

quote:

ORIGINAL: Suleiman

::in a whisper:: Pssst! Nobody tell him about the satanic initiation ritual you have to undergo to be confirmed as a twue mathter!

OH MY GOD!!!  that is freaky!  That was your 666th post!  And you're talking about satanic rituals!  Thats creaping me out now that I noticed it!



BWA HA HA HA HA!!! ::cue lightning:: Master LaVey will be most pleased!!!

_____________________________

Think of my verbosity as a sort of litmus test for our relationship. I write in a manner identical to how I speak and how I think. If you can not cope with what I have written here, it is probably for the best if we go our separate ways.

(in reply to Aslanemperor)
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RE: Can you serve God and your Master? - 4/21/2007 12:18:50 PM   
Satyr6406


Posts: 820
Joined: 3/27/2006
From: New Brunswick, N.J.
Status: offline 		Well, here's a subject that's near and dear to my heart.
 
I think the first thing I might say is that the first two references (Exodus and Leviticus) are Old Testament references and most Christians tend to view the OT with a bit of a jaundiced eye (I would caution that Leviticus also has verses that, if read, literally, seem to ban the playing of American football).
 
Having said that, I notice that the two references from Colossians make no mention of any physical punishment. Therefore, while I might agree that that particular bible allows Christians to engage in a D/s llifestyle, it doesn't seem to support your claim of BDSM activities.
 
Now, none of this is meant to say that I disagree with the premise.

quote:

ORIGINAL: imthatacheyouhav
my Master serves God...i serve God and my Master...its not been an issue for me as of yet.
  

I have always believed that very thing but, that is why I have frequently said that a dominant/master must serve a "higher set of principles" (One needs to be politically correct, these days).
 
In my mind, if a dominant only serves his own egotistical, chest-thumping, well ...
 
So, for my "two cents": "Can you serve God and your master?" Yes, as long as your master serves God; otherwise, you have different agendas and that isn't "lifestyle".
 
 
 
 
Peace and comfort,
 
 
 
 
Michael

_____________________________

Peace and comfort,


Michael

Former Vice-President Gore didn't invent the internet but, he DID make up global warming!

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RE: Can you serve God and your Master? - 4/21/2007 12:20:20 PM   
thetammyjo


Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline 		All of your quotes come from a world where slavery was legal and was supported by the society.

That is not the case now.

BDSM slavery is about consent; your biblical examples (other than that one where the slave asks to stay during the jubilee when he/she would be freed) are all examples of non-consensual slavery.

They are not the same at all.

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

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RE: Can you serve God and your Master? - 4/21/2007 12:23:16 PM   
slaveish


Posts: 1086
Joined: 2/19/2007
Status: offline 		The way I see it is this.

If the Christian God is supposed to be all-powerful, all-knowing, The Trinity, then if we were not supposed to think or act upon these things then it would not have been in our minds to ponder.

And to those who call this way of living "sin" then my answer is that God's son died to absolve us of our sins, and therefore the argument is not valid.

It is my greatest belief that we are here to learn, to experience, to enjoy, and to leave as little damage as possible. Some Buddhists believe that there is no "right" and no "wrong" - those terms are used by humans, not by the universe. Situations, people, ideas, statements, ~everything~ under the sun just is, neither right nor wrong. I tend to agree, on a cosmic level.

_____________________________

You only lose what you cling to. ~~Gautama Sidharta

If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other. ~~Mother Teresa

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RE: Can you serve God and your Master? - 4/21/2007 12:23:21 PM   
thetammyjo


Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BondageTopJere

By and large, I'm actually suprise to see a lack of christians in BDSM circles, at least male doms/fem subs. A D/s relationship is suprisingly similiar to the kind of relationship that the church espouses as the correct way to live. Been awhile awhile since I went to a wedding, but isn't there something in the grooms vows "to cherish and protect" and the brides " Honor and obey"? Is it not expected of christian men to be the head of their household, to ensure that their family is taken care of in all ways? Is it not expected of christian women to see to to the maintenance of the house, relieve the stress that life can cause to their husband, to bow down to his will in all matters?



Those are patriarchical expectations, not Christian expectations. They may overlap for some people but they are not the same.

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

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RE: Can you serve God and your Master? - 4/21/2007 12:27:11 PM   
barnone


Posts: 15
Joined: 9/24/2004
Status: offline 		Aslanemperor,

You are selectively quoting from the Bible.  The Old Testament gives very precise rules on the treatment of slaves and it is often kept to a very high standard, much more so than most BDSM practicioners would care to use as guidelines.  Also, religions which rely on the Bible (Judaism and Christianity) do not condone slavery, they merely legislate laws for the protection of slaves when the institution of slavery exists.

Furthermore, so what if the Bible mentions slavery?  All the other activities that BDSM lifestylers engage in are hardly in accordance with Biblical law or the spirit of Judaism and Christianity; some basic ones:  engaging in relations with a man or woman outside of marriage, self-abuse (including the submissive's permission to be abused by the dominant)*, etc. all of which are acts of, what is considered, immodesty and impiety.

My suggestion to you is to start using your rational faculties, start reading some of the abundant sources from science and philosophy that disprove the silly notion of a divine being, and stick to worshipping your dominant.  He/she shouldn't have to share his/her position with anyone else, particularly not a figment of your imagination.

*I use the word "abuse" here only in the sense that that is how a devout Jew or Christian would see BDSM practices


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"F. Liszt, young man, is Fliszt."

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RE: Can you serve God and your Master? - 4/21/2007 12:29:04 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		I love how christians try and find justification for what they do when it's something that really matters to them.  They don't care about the having sex before marriage because most people keep quiet about that these days.  But the kink?  Well we've got to find a way to make that OK.

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Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

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RE: Can you serve God and your Master? - 4/21/2007 12:41:43 PM   
Aslanemperor


Posts: 108
Joined: 4/17/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Satyr6406

Well, here's a subject that's near and dear to my heart.
 
I think the first thing I might say is that the first two references (Exodus and Leviticus) are Old Testament references and most Christians tend to view the OT with a bit of a jaundiced eye (I would caution that Leviticus also has verses that, if read, literally, seem to ban the playing of American football).
 
Having said that, I notice that the two references from Colossians make no mention of any physical punishment. Therefore, while I might agree that that particular bible allows Christians to engage in a D/s llifestyle, it doesn't seem to support your claim of BDSM activities.
 
Now, none of this is meant to say that I disagree with the premise.

quote:

ORIGINAL: imthatacheyouhav
my Master serves God...i serve God and my Master...its not been an issue for me as of yet.
  

I have always believed that very thing but, that is why I have frequently said that a dominant/master must serve a "higher set of principles" (One needs to be politically correct, these days).
 
In my mind, if a dominant only serves his own egotistical, chest-thumping, well ...
 
So, for my "two cents": "Can you serve God and your master?" Yes, as long as your master serves God; otherwise, you have different agendas and that isn't "lifestyle".
 
 
 
 
Peace and comfort,
 
 
 
 
Michael

I'm personally under the impression that physical punishment should only be ok when agreed upon by both parties in the relationship.  Mainly I think this because to do otherwise makes far to much of a chance for an abusive person to say that he's beating up his woman because he's her Dom.
And of course, if you know that your submissive is ok with it(and most submissives I have had preferred the occasional punishment because they enjoyed the pain and the play that the action represented.

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RE: Can you serve God and your Master? - 4/21/2007 12:44:06 PM   
BondageTopJere


Posts: 170
Joined: 8/22/2006
Status: offline
quote:


Those are patriarchical expectations, not Christian expectations. They may overlap for some people but they are not the same.


Quite possibly true, I'm basing this mainly on my own experience with the southern pentecostal brand of christianity in my youth.  They took the bible quite literally, or at least the their interpetation of it.   Patriarchical and Christian expectations were one and the same to many of them, and many couldn't even tell the difference between the 2.

You've no idea how glad I was when finally quit going.  The experience definitely biased me against ever personally practicing christianity in any form ever again.  I think religion is quite possibly the most evil thing men ever created, and countless millions have died and suffered at the hands of religion of the course of the many centuries God may or may not exist, but if he does he must surely be weeping with despair at what humanity has done in his name.

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RE: Can you serve God and your Master? - 4/21/2007 12:57:17 PM   
Aslanemperor


Posts: 108
Joined: 4/17/2005
Status: offline 		Firstly, I've seen a few arguments that are very similar, and I'll answer them all in one swoop.  Not everyone who is into BDSM is going to go all out into everything there is to do.  For instance, I am into BDSM, this does not mean that I'm Bisexual.  This means that I like Bondage fantasies and hot kinky sex with my woman.  I believe that the same rules which apply to slaves in the Bible apply here since it was not that uncommon for a poor person to sell themselves into slavery and stay under their masters care after the usual 7 year period.
As for the mention of society being different, what does that have to do with this discussion?  Based on what I've read of him, God is supposed to be unchanging.  Therefore, how would society changing change his views on a thing.
In response to the statement that God didn't condone slavery, I can tell you that God was very specific in what he didn't want done.  If he didn't like slavery he would have mentioned it as "abominable" or "detestable" as he does every other thing he doesn't like.
And by the way, I believe in this "silly notion of a divine being" and I think it's far sillier to believe that one day, out of nowhere and by no intent, everything just started existing.  That makes no sense to me, and just defies every law of science there is.  Sorry, but I can't accept that.  I find it much easier to believe in God then to believe that we simply exist and there was no beginning.  Besides, I've seen to much to discount the idea of a diety.  If I'm wrong about the Diety I serve, I'm not wrong that there is some supernatural creator out there.  Or at least supernatural from our limited view.

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RE: Can you serve God and your Master? - 4/21/2007 12:58:35 PM   
Satyr6406


Posts: 820
Joined: 3/27/2006
From: New Brunswick, N.J.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aslanemperor
I'm personally under the impression that physical punishment should only be ok when agreed upon by both parties in the relationship.  Mainly I think this because to do otherwise makes far to much of a chance for an abusive person to say that he's beating up his woman because he's her Dom.
And of course, if you know that your submissive is ok with it(and most submissives I have had preferred the occasional punishment because they enjoyed the pain and the play that the action represented.


Well, I have never seen corporal punishment as a viable option in any situation (except with VERY young UMs, where telling them: "No!" and then, a light smack on the hand teaches them what the word means) so, I don't advocate the beatings, etc. but, let's go with that, for a moment ...
 
If I thought that my submissive needed some physical punishment, I should "check with her to make sure it's okay"? Should we ask criminals if they agree with their sentences? Should we ask our children if grounding them for a weekend is too long?
 
Once again, in my mind, we're left with an inconsistancy, here.
 
Let's remove the idea of corporal punishment and "go at it", from there.
 
If I decide that my submissive has failed to wash the dishes for the umpteenth time. I might decide that she can no longer use a dish to eat her food (I doubt it but, I'm working on the fly, here). I don't care if she agrees to that punishment or not. As with all things, in this lifestyle, she has a three-pronged choice:
 
  1. "Yes, Michael Sir"
  2. "Can we talk about this, please?"
  3. "I can't serve you, anymore, Sir."

That's it. I couldn't possibly care less if she thinks I'm being "fair".
 
I am NOT going to manage my beliefs on what's right and wrong based upon what someone who has, supposedly, put her care into my hands thinks is fair or not. She'll do as she's supposed to or, she'll be punished. If she doesn't like the punishment, she knows where the door is.
 
 
 
 
Peace and comfort,
 
 
 
 
Michael

_____________________________

Peace and comfort,


Michael

Former Vice-President Gore didn't invent the internet but, he DID make up global warming!

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RE: Can you serve God and your Master? - 4/21/2007 1:03:24 PM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

I love how christians try and find justification for what they do when it's something that really matters to them.  They don't care about the having sex before marriage because most people keep quiet about that these days.  But the kink?  Well we've got to find a way to make that OK.


I don't believe this is an example of finding justification. The Bible does allow and advocate sexual slavery. People who are religious try to follow the laws of their religion. There is nothing wrong with that. For BDSM Christians who are not familiar with this part of the Bible (frequently hidden by our priests and pastors) this can be troublesome.

As a Christian, sometimes I have a problem with the fact that I am having sex before marriage. It is something I have to reconcile with my faith, and I take comfort in the fact that if that is enough to send me to Hell, despite the good works that I have done, my charity work and my sharing of the faith with those who are interested, not to mention my genuine belief in Jesus Christ, then there really wasn't much else I could have done.

This would be like a bacon-loving Jewish person finding a little read part of the Torah that allows them to eat pigs. It's not justifying anything. It's saying loudly and clearly that "Hey, this is allowed by the laws of your religion!" It's just nice to know.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
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