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RE: Can you serve God and your Master? - 4/24/2007 7:21:32 PM   
smcontrol


Posts: 33
Joined: 4/9/2007
Status: offline 		I don't really see the problem with serving God and your Master but then again I don't see any problems with the fact that having a woman kneel down and raise her bottom to accept a whipping simply because it pleases me is the one of the most erotic experiences available either.

The issue with being a Christian though can be very similar to being a D/s'er in that not everyone who shares those two things in common with me understands them the same way that I do.  And I don't want just anyone speaking on either subject without approving the message through me first.  (While not believing that I AM God I probably do still think I should be on the committee that advises Him.)  I no more want some moron from the Christian Right explaining to people what it means to be a follower of Christ than I do some leather clad Gor Master explaining D/s for me.  It's arrogance no doubt, but there is a real part of me that cringes when I listen to others try to explain either Christ or D/s because I don't think they have a sufficient enough understanding to speak.  (Laughing....probably the same reaction when some of ya'll read my thoughts).  And fundamentally I do want you to come away understanding how either one of these things has worked for me in my life.

It's sophmoric (sorry spell checker died) to think that just because you know that in D/s a Master may literally piss on his slave and that the two of them find that an erotic form of intimacy that you really GET what D/s is all about.   And you might want to know, before coming to any conclusions about this lifestyle anyway, that the word that comes to mind first for a great many of U/us is "yuck" when the idea of watersports is raised.  Some of U/us totally get into it and some of U/us say while it's not for me I'm okay if it works for Y/you.  Similarly the ability to quote a part of the Bible, Old or New, does not make you qualified to speak on the subject of the God of the Bible and what is or is not okay Him.  The fact that you know one line of the Bible might not be enough to form a full and complete opinion on Christianity.  Early in this thread someone commented something like: "Did you know parts of the Bible were taken out that didn't agree with society at that time and that slave was allowed because people wanted reasons to support slavery."  Not to attack or the like but that simply wasn't how the thing went down.  Knowing part of the deal isn't really enough, at least not to me.

On most of these boards what I see, and granted I try to view the positive when possible, are people asking questions, exchanging experience, and really trying to learn and grow in that part of their lives that is about D/s.  We tend not to seek out opinions but experience here and I've always respected that and thought it was a pretty cool thing.  Since I'm not gay why would anyone care what my opinon of homosexuality is?  When someone talks about a female led D/s experience you won't see me posting because I have no clue how that works past theory.  So I'm not really sure why when someone poses a sincere question concerning their faith why people who don't share that faith feel the urge to comment or point out how stupid you have to be to think that.  Or maybe that is just my reading and my reaction and that hasn't been anyones intent.

So I say all that to offer my experience that the key to understanding what God would have me do has been a dialog between God and me.  I have learned the point that I am no better than anyone else and that the real focus for me needs to be how cool God has been towards some of my mistakes than to get too hung up over the mistakes of others.  And I understand enough about progressive revelation to get that God has dealt with us as he has found us and that the norms of several thousand years ago might not be the real point (The entire book of Leviticus for me).  So when God is saying that we can't serve two masters the point was more what is in your heart than trying to find a theasarus so that "Master" still works for us as it relates to the D/s definition of the word.  If you've ever been in love you get how great it is to be able to be that totally into another person who is just as totally into you.  I'm pretty convinced that the sexual component without the emotional commitment is getting ripped off on both fronts but I think God is okay with two people truly loving each other even if it does involve a spanking or some other little kinky twist.

Okay off to learn cool new ways of using cotton rope to tie down pretty girls...

_____________________________

Michael

"The world breaks everyone and afterward many are strong in the broken places. But those that will not break it kills."


Ernest Hemingway, 1929




(in reply to slaveluci)
Profile   Post #: 161
RE: Can you serve God and your Master? - 4/24/2007 7:47:34 PM   
lovewithoutfear


Posts: 153
Joined: 7/11/2005
Status: offline 		 slaveluci wrote:
"But if you don't believe a hell exists, how much of a punishment is that really?  How can it influence your decision if you don't even believe in its existance?"
 
A good observation.  I don't believe in hell -- so what is it that keeps me ethical?  Just the desire to be good and do good, to increase the amount of happiness in the world and decrease the difficulty.  I'm an admirer of the psychologist and author Marshall Rosenberg, who says one of life's most basic quesitons is "What can I do to make life more wonderful?"  This is what motivates me.  I would rather be motivated by the desire to increase delight than by the fear of hell, and I would rather those around me were too.  It seems a much kinder view of things.  And the same attitude pertains in my M/s relationship too:  I'm not obedient because I fear punishment, I'm obedient because I want to please him. 

(in reply to PsyVamp)
Profile   Post #: 162
RE: Can you serve God and your Master? - 4/24/2007 9:36:22 PM   
DreamyLadySnow


Posts: 359
Joined: 1/23/2005
Status: offline 		My beliefs have frequently been attacked by Wiccans and pagans, locally though, not online.

I think I've had enough. Whatever happened to people being free to believe what they want and not be called an idiot? I guess that's out of fashion.

LS

(in reply to AquaticSub)
Profile   Post #: 163
RE: Can you serve God and your Master? - 4/25/2007 8:39:54 AM   
SirDominic


Posts: 711
Joined: 11/22/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DreamyLadySnow

My beliefs have frequently been attacked by Wiccans and pagans, locally though, not online.

I think I've had enough. Whatever happened to people being free to believe what they want and not be called an idiot? I guess that's out of fashion.

LS


LS, for me the issue is not faith, but blind faith. So many people here in the U.S. profess beliefs based on nothing but what they hear every sunday. How many Christians have taken the time to understand the history of the Bible. That portions were extracted from the mythology of earlier civilizations? That it is a patchwork of pieces, compiled over more than two thousand years. Major changes in the Bible were made by humans along the way. Anything to do with the groups that did not agree with the mainstream not only had their text excised, but those people were brutally exterminated by the Church. How many know that the Old Testament was very probably radically changed so that it conformed more with the New?

I'm not going to call anyone an idiot. I'm not attacking your beliefs. I ask that they are based on an informed understanding of what is myth and what we know happened historically. I do think there a lot of ignorant people out there who are perfectly happy in their ignorance. And ignorance is a dangerous thing no matter what the situation.

Namaste, Sir Dominic

_____________________________

You teach best what you have lived.

(in reply to DreamyLadySnow)
Profile   Post #: 164
RE: Can you serve God and your Master? - 4/26/2007 10:20:47 PM   
DreamyLadySnow


Posts: 359
Joined: 1/23/2005
Status: offline 		Sir Dominic,
I believe based on my experiences, not those of others, or their words.

Frankly I've never seen you call anyone an idiot. Much appreciated.


LS

(in reply to SirDominic)
Profile   Post #: 165
RE: Can you serve God and your Master? - 4/26/2007 11:46:39 PM   
szobras


Posts: 435
Joined: 9/18/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DreamyLadySnow

My beliefs have frequently been attacked by Wiccans and pagans, locally though, not online.

I think I've had enough. Whatever happened to people being free to believe what they want and not be called an idiot? I guess that's out of fashion.

LS

Unfortunately, I have not heard of ANY belief , path,or religion, that has managed to become the exception of human ridicule by someone.

(in reply to DreamyLadySnow)
Profile   Post #: 166
RE: Can you serve God and your Master? - 4/27/2007 12:35:42 AM   
DarkDreams123


Posts: 74
Joined: 1/25/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

Since this court in question created sin to begin with, created the very concept of sin (for that religion at least), created the fact that someone could sin and somehow needs to be punished for it without doing ANYTHING at all, created the concept that someone sins by mere fact of being BORN- yes I'll blame the court in this instance.

...

Because in order to function in a society we must act AS IF we have free will most of the time.  Even then we excuse insane people because we don't think an insane person can act with a free will.

Again, considering the stories of god often portray god intefering with humanity, stopping things, starting things, pretty much allowing whatever happens to happen, and whatever doesn't happen to not happen, I think it's pretty clear free will in the christian gods world is really just an illusion and that god will interfere whenever god feels likes it.  If god really valued free will above all else- miracles wouldn't happen, and neither would things like the great flood, or other direct punishments god chooses to bring down on people.

Being allowed to believe you have free will MOST OF THE TIME, doesn't at all mean that free will is actually in place.


Well, you've raised quite a few issues here. You mention that the "court" created the very concept of sin. OK. But how do you have free will unless you have the freedom to both obey and disobey? You can hardly blame God for sin because he decided to make creatures capable of either accepting him or rejecting him. For love to be real, it must be voluntary. For love to be genuine, it must be possible not to love. This is the essence of sin (as I understand it).

You further say that we are guilty of sin without having done anything to deserve it. I think this is what the Christian's call "original sin." I have understood this to mean that the first man and woman created by God, Adam and Eve, sinned of their own free will and that this sin is "inherited" by all of their descendents. However, even if this isn't true, can anyone say that they haven't sinned? I believe that Jesus defined sin as even something that occurred in your mind (like hating someone = murder, lusting after a woman = sexual sin, etc.).

Your second-to-last paragraph is not quite clear to me. It appears that you are both blaming God for interfering and for not interfering. Which is it? You can't have it both ways.

Free will is not absolute. No one is free to defy the law of gravity or change the laws of physics. Freedom is something that is exercised within certain limits. This isn't really anything surprising. You say that we function in society as if we have free will all of the time. Except that if you exercise your free will to kill someone, you will find your freedom is severely limited.

If you grant the Christian's premise that God created the universe and everything in it, then I guess that gives God the right to make up the rules.

His rules, his game. If he wants to "blow the whistle" once in a while, why is that so wrong?

-DarkDreams

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 167
RE: Can you serve God and your Master? - 4/27/2007 4:22:04 AM   
CuriousLord


Posts: 3911
Joined: 4/3/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: szobras

quote:

ORIGINAL: DreamyLadySnow

My beliefs have frequently been attacked by Wiccans and pagans, locally though, not online.

I think I've had enough. Whatever happened to people being free to believe what they want and not be called an idiot? I guess that's out of fashion.

LS

Unfortunately, I have not heard of ANY belief , path,or religion, that has managed to become the exception of human ridicule by someone.


Yup.  szobras, you nailed this one.  It's only out of interest in maintaining the communal respect here I don't flame this thread for the annoying superstitions mentioned herein.

quote:

Einstein
Neither can I believe that the individual survives the death of his body, although feeble souls harbor such thoughts through fear or ridiculous egotisms.


You can not serve both "God" and "Master" because "God" doesn't exist and praising a mythical creature isn't truly serving anyone- unless the "Master" needs to believe in such a superstition to support his fragile ego, in which case the communal delusion would be complimentary and fulfill service in willful deception.

Note:  I don't believe in God.  (It annoys the living hell out of me that some people believe in such a ridiculous, self-serving, egotistical thing.)  This is my view, based on my "belief" (which I will not call a belief, proper, since I base it solely off science and logical argument, not blind faith and the willingness to hope for something in contradiction to logic as the word is often used).

(in reply to szobras)
Profile   Post #: 168
RE: Can you serve God and your Master? - 4/27/2007 5:38:38 AM   
szobras


Posts: 435
Joined: 9/18/2006
Status: offline 		Edited for futility.
No comment

< Message edited by szobras -- 4/27/2007 6:16:14 AM >

(in reply to CuriousLord)
Profile   Post #: 169
RE: Can you serve God and your Master? - 4/27/2007 8:48:50 AM   
thetammyjo


Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: lovewithoutfear

slaveluci wrote:
"But if you don't believe a hell exists, how much of a punishment is that really? How can it influence your decision if you don't even believe in its existance?"

A good observation. I don't believe in hell -- so what is it that keeps me ethical? Just the desire to be good and do good, to increase the amount of happiness in the world and decrease the difficulty. I'm an admirer of the psychologist and author Marshall Rosenberg, who says one of life's most basic quesitons is "What can I do to make life more wonderful?" This is what motivates me. I would rather be motivated by the desire to increase delight than by the fear of hell, and I would rather those around me were too. It seems a much kinder view of things. And the same attitude pertains in my M/s relationship too: I'm not obedient because I fear punishment, I'm obedient because I want to please him.


Excellent post.

I have often wonder if the Divine is fooled when someone claims they have faith because they are afraid of what will happen to their souls post death.

That would me like me believing that a person who obeys me is really being submissive when they are really motivated by not being punished or getting sex.

I'm certainly not the Divine so I'm pretty sure It is not fooled by fear based "faith."

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to lovewithoutfear)
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RE: Can you serve God and your Master? - 4/27/2007 11:49:31 AM   
slaveluci


Posts: 4294
Joined: 3/2/2007
From: Little Rock, AR
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord
You can not serve both "God" and "Master" because "God" doesn't exist and praising a mythical creature isn't truly serving anyone- unless the "Master" needs to believe in such a superstition to support his fragile ego, in which case the communal delusion would be complimentary and fulfill service in willful deception.
Whew....quite a mouthful.  i'll be sure and tell Master He needs to work on that fragile ego of His
Note:  I don't believe in God.  (It annoys the living hell out of me that some people believe in such a ridiculous, self-serving, egotistical thing.) 
Why does it annoy you that people believe differently than you?  How does my belief in God affect you even one iota?  "Ridiculous, self-serving and egotistical" are definitely not words i would apply to my observation of my religious beliefs.  They could perhaps be applied however to someone who finds it annoying that anyone would dare believe in a God he doesn't.
This is my view, based on my "belief" (which I will not call a belief, proper, since I base it solely off science and logical argument, not blind faith and the willingness to hope for something in contradiction to logic as the word is often used).
i think some folks are so hung up on making sure everything is logical that THAT becomes almost a religious belief to them.  Blind faith and hope aren't so bad.........slave luci


_____________________________

To choose a good book, look in an inquisitor’s prohibited list. ~John Aikin

(in reply to CuriousLord)
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RE: Can you serve God and your Master? - 4/28/2007 2:36:17 AM   
mons


Posts: 2400
Joined: 11/16/2005
Status: offline 		greetings

god comes before everything and everyone. i would hope you master would understand that. if i am wiht a submissve and they start to speak of the devil or some other type of thing i have been taught that are wrong i will not go out with this person. god has made my life whole when i was ill i turn to him and i made it throught so i think he should understand what your needs are . i wish you well and i hope he si welling to be there with you

mons

(in reply to Aslanemperor)
Profile   Post #: 172
RE: Can you serve God and your Master? - 5/5/2007 10:16:48 AM   
Satyr6406


Posts: 820
Joined: 3/27/2006
From: New Brunswick, N.J.
Status: offline 		Okay. I just got done, talking to "The Big Guy". He's pissed and He says: "Don't make Me come down there!!!"

(By the way, God's a dominant. Could we please capitalize His name and pronouns?)

Thank you for your attention. That is all.





Peace and comfort,





Michael

< Message edited by Satyr6406 -- 5/5/2007 10:17:07 AM >

_____________________________

Peace and comfort,


Michael

Former Vice-President Gore didn't invent the internet but, he DID make up global warming!

(in reply to mons)
Profile   Post #: 173
RE: Can you serve God and your Master? - 5/5/2007 11:47:39 AM   
junecleaver


Posts: 1145
Joined: 4/6/2005
Status: offline
quote:


ORIGINAL: slaveluci
For me, faith is the antithesis of logic: "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen" - Hebrews 11:1 and Christ Himself commended those who, unlike "doubting" Thomas, can believe without seeing, without proof.  i can't use logic to "prove" what i believe.   i just know i believe it and that's good enough for me.  No, that's not intellectual and scholarly, but it's how it is for me......slave luci


I think it's very strange when people say things like faith is the antithesis of logic.  I tend to think of it as what we use to fill in the gaps of the things we have a hard time understanding or seeing or validating with facts.

"By refusing to give into his temptations in the wilderness or come down from the cross---actions that would have proved his power and identity beyond all doubt--he saddled the peoples of the world with the crippling burden of uncertainty.  Jesus consistently refused to do things that would force people into believing him.  Instead, he always allowed room for doubt and presented people with the opportunity to explore their questions.  He never pushed, forced, bludgeoned, beat , coerced, cajoled, manhandled, or manipulated people into faith---he never threatened them with "an offer they couldn't refuse."  In contrast to some of the high handed 'interventionist' approaches of some who follow Chirst, his efforts to bring people he encountered into a relationship with God were characterized by the slow, steady undertow of grace.  He had what we often lack---the maturity to see that faith isn't something you either have or you don't have, but something that ebbs and flows in the life and soul every individual.  Doubt isn't the opposite of faith.  It is an element of faith.  Where there is absolute certainty there can be no faith."

I don't think MR is really here to test your 'faith' like every tidbit of information that your eyes read and your ears hear, it exists to help you learn.

I need a 'faith' or a religion or spirituality that does not turn its back on intellect and logic.

And it's weird how far this topic has drifted....lol


*edited to add quotation marks, because it kind of looked like i wrote that and i didn't.  not quite that eloquent. ;)

< Message edited by junecleaver -- 5/5/2007 12:38:47 PM >

_____________________________


"No one will ever win the battle of the sexes; there's too much fraternizing with the enemy. "
--Henry A. Kissinger

(in reply to MzMia)
Profile   Post #: 174
RE: Can you serve God and your Master? - 5/5/2007 12:12:05 PM   
Level


Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline 		Very nice post, june.

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to junecleaver)
Profile   Post #: 175
RE: Can you serve God and your Master? - 5/5/2007 3:03:25 PM   
slaveluci


Posts: 4294
Joined: 3/2/2007
From: Little Rock, AR
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: junecleaver
I think it's very strange when people say things like faith is the antithesis of logic.  I tend to think of it as what we use to fill in the gaps of the things we have a hard time understanding or seeing or validating with facts.

"By refusing to give into his temptations in the wilderness or come down from the cross---actions that would have proved his power and identity beyond all doubt--he saddled the peoples of the world with the crippling burden of uncertainty.  Jesus consistently refused to do things that would force people into believing him.  Instead, he always allowed room for doubt and presented people with the opportunity to explore their questions.  He never pushed, forced, bludgeoned, beat , coerced, cajoled, manhandled, or manipulated people into faith---he never threatened them with "an offer they couldn't refuse."  In contrast to some of the high handed 'interventionist' approaches of some who follow Chirst, his efforts to bring people he encountered into a relationship with God were characterized by the slow, steady undertow of grace.  He had what we often lack---the maturity to see that faith isn't something you either have or you don't have, but something that ebbs and flows in the life and soul every individual.  Doubt isn't the opposite of faith.  It is an element of faith.  Where there is absolute certainty there can be no faith."
You make a great point and i see what you're saying. 
 
I need a 'faith' or a religion or spirituality that does not turn its back on intellect and logic.
And, in what would seem to be direct contradiction to my quote above, when i think about it, i do as well.  i have always contended that, for instance, evolution and creationism can both be accepted by Christians.  i do not wish to expel logic from my beliefs.  i guess what i was meaning by what i said is that i don't have to have everything scientifically proven to believe.  i guess "antithesis" was the wrong word.  To be honest, i had never gotten into such a debate about faith and didn't have practiced arguments to the curveballs being thrown to me...lol.  What i was trying to express was that i don't have to have something proven by logic to believe it, nothing more.  Not really odd to me when i think about it. 

And it's weird how far this topic has drifted....lol
yeah, that happens.  On almost every thread......slave luci


_____________________________

To choose a good book, look in an inquisitor’s prohibited list. ~John Aikin

(in reply to junecleaver)
Profile   Post #: 176
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