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RE: Can you serve God and your Master? - 4/23/2007 6:49:16 PM

MzMia

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At the end of the day, it boils down to live and let live.
Believe what you want and let others believe what they want.
Isn't it great to live in a country that allows us all to worship and
believe in the manner that we want!
Like Tiny Tim said, GOD Bless us one and all.

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To Each His/Her Own
"DENIAL ain't just a river in Egypt." Mark Twain

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"My partner's whisper"--bloomswell

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Post #: 121

RE: Can you serve God and your Master? - 4/23/2007 6:54:57 PM

hisannabelle

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greetings aslanemperor,

i haven't read the entire thread, but my answer would be no - at least not with my current dominant. this isn't because of some part of christian scripture, but rather that He would not be likely to collar a christian...mainly because shared spirituality is important to the relationship, and He views things very differently from christianity. He's been in relationships with christians (was even married to one) but the importance of our religious and spiritual beliefs to our dynamic means that although our paths occasionally diverge, it's extremely important that we be on the same level in that area. that said, i like christianity and christian church and i personally think there's more in christian scripture AND lived christian tradition showing that slavery IS acceptable than there is showing that it's not.

annabelle.

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RE: Can you serve God and your Master? - 4/23/2007 9:20:28 PM

DreamyLadySnow

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barnone,
just because you haven't met someone, that doesn't mean they don't exist.

LS

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Post #: 123

RE: Can you serve God and your Master? - 4/23/2007 11:58:45 PM

ExpressiveDom1

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This is a topic of great interest to me, as a Christian and dominant. There have been many issues raised (theological, Biblical, historical, philosophical) that it would be profitable for me to discuss with some of you, but I want to focus on this question from a developmental perspective.

My sense is that the OP is asking a basic question of how we, as human beings, reconcile our beliefs (spiritual, religious, moral, ethical, etc.) with our practice (dominance, submission, bdsm, etc.) Identity development addresses these questions in terms of exploration and commitment. One can be high or low in each dimension, and the combination results in four statuses. Diffuse (low exploration, low commitment) is when an individual is very uncertain about his or her beliefs and yet is not looking for any foundaton to which to commit. Foreclosed (low exploration, high commitment) is when someone receives a set of beliefs from an authority without much questoning, but strongly commits to it. Moratorium (high exploration, low commitment) is when one is relatively fluid in what they believe, but exploring alternatives to what they have been taught to a high degree. And, finally, Acheived is when one has explored many alternatives and is highly committed to their beliefs (this can be the same set as they received initially from thier parents/church, but it has become uniquely their own.)

I mention this because I believe it makes a dfference where one is in terms of identity status when one asks the OP question. A Diffuse person is not likely to be exploring D/s, nor asking this question. A Foreclosed person is likely to be the first one to condemn the practice of D/s, even if they may have felt a twinge of excitement in the topic. A Moratorium is likely to be one who is open to exploring alternatives within a belief structure, perhaps allowing D/s to be more easily justified. An Achieved is likely to have reconciled the question for him/herself.

As I read the posts, my sense is that not only are people coming to the question from different religious perspectives, but also from different identity statuses. And being in one status or another changes the substance of the question, as well as the answers which are potentially attractive.

The most problematic status, in my view, would be he Foreclosed. Trying to hold on to a rather static belief system received from an institution is quite challenging when attempting to accomodate a practice which that institution soundly condemns. (Regardless of the Biblical or theological argument, this is the consensus position of the Church currently.) And, for many Christians, I believe, this is the position from which their friends in their faith respond if the question of D/s, etc. ever comes up.

I hope this is a helpful contribution to the discussion.

Expressive

(in reply to DreamyLadySnow)

Post #: 124

RE: Can you serve God and your Master? - 4/24/2007 12:32:36 AM

DarkDreams123

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Not to be a Christian apologist here, but I don't think you are portraying what I have heard about Christian beliefs, LuckyAlbatross.

The Christians believe that God created the universe. That means that it's his ballgame. He makes the rules. The Christians also believe that humankind has "sinned", by breaking the rules and is under a condemnation of death.

The fact that God does not carry out the death sentence immediately is what they call "Grace."

A criminal on "death row" might have his execution stayed for many years while the court hears one appeal after another. Would you blame the court when it finally carries out the sentence?

As to "free will": free will is still free even if there are consequences to the choices. If not, how could we arrest anyone who murders, rapes or steals? They were just doing what they were "determined" to do.

-DarkDreams

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 125

RE: Can you serve God and your Master? - 4/24/2007 1:16:32 AM

CuriousLord

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My slaves serve God by definition.

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Post #: 126

RE: Can you serve God and your Master? - 4/24/2007 1:47:47 AM

Pestilence

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For starters, the King James edition of the bible is poorly translated at best. And it's a translation of something that was never meant to be taken in literal terms in many cases. To get an accurate reading of the bible you need to translate it from ancient greek or hebrew (for more on this, see http://drgenescott.com). There is also much that has been lost to time and the pope's flame. So take the literal text in the scripture with a grain of salt (that means no stoning children for misbehaving either).

The fact that slavery is mentioned in the bible in a negative light really shouldn't be a surprise. The israelites have always been persecuted; they are even today, almost 4000 years later. They were slaves themselves in Egypt long before Jesus was born. I would like to point out, however, that there is a distinct difference between serving by choice and serving under pain of death.

< Message edited by Pestilence -- 4/24/2007 2:08:29 AM >

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Post #: 127

RE: Can you serve God and your Master? - 4/24/2007 5:45:08 AM

Devilslilsister

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you all are going to burn in hell

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Post #: 128

RE: Can you serve God and your Master? - 4/24/2007 7:00:00 AM

LuckyAlbatross

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkDreams123
A criminal on "death row" might have his execution stayed for many years while the court hears one appeal after another. Would you blame the court when it finally carries out the sentence?

Since this court in question created sin to begin with, created the very concept of sin (for that religion at least), created the fact that someone could sin and somehow needs to be punished for it without doing ANYTHING at all, created the concept that someone sins by mere fact of being BORN- yes I'll blame the court in this instance.

quote:

As to "free will": free will is still free even if there are consequences to the choices. If not, how could we arrest anyone who murders, rapes or steals? They were just doing what they were "determined" to do.

-DarkDreams

Because in order to function in a society we must act AS IF we have free will most of the time. Even then we excuse insane people because we don't think an insane person can act with a free will.

Again, considering the stories of god often portray god intefering with humanity, stopping things, starting things, pretty much allowing whatever happens to happen, and whatever doesn't happen to not happen, I think it's pretty clear free will in the christian gods world is really just an illusion and that god will interfere whenever god feels likes it. If god really valued free will above all else- miracles wouldn't happen, and neither would things like the great flood, or other direct punishments god chooses to bring down on people.

Being allowed to believe you have free will MOST OF THE TIME, doesn't at all mean that free will is actually in place.

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Post #: 129

RE: Can you serve God and your Master? - 4/24/2007 7:20:37 AM

thetammyjo

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I think your answer was very good, ExpressiveDom1.

For me, nothing I do clashes with my Christian beliefs because what I do is both mutually consensual and designed to help each person involved become the best person he/she can become. I see nothing that I do which would upset God or Jesus -- we talk regularly so I think the Divine would tell me if there was a problem.

I think that shame is often a good gauge of whether what we do clashes with our beliefs, religious, ethical, political, whatever. Shame is also a very strong tool of organized religion along with fear and hope. I don't do things that make me feel ashamed, my Ds or BDSM does not frighten me, if anything it gives me hope as it helps me live my life more fully as the best human being I can be.

However, I do not see BDSM as the same as religion or spirituality though I know there are people who do.

< Message edited by thetammyjo -- 4/24/2007 7:22:47 AM >

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Post #: 130

RE: Can you serve God and your Master? - 4/24/2007 11:27:47 AM

MadRabbit

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveluci
Yep...makes sense to me ....you've left me speechless, here....lol. i see exactly what you are saying. What would be the terminology then? If we are indeed "allowed" to choose but there is a consequence attached for not choosing "correctly" - if that isn't free will (which i see how it isn't), then what is it? You've got me intrigued now.........slave luci

I have no idea how christians choose to ignore the contradictions of what their faith tells them is how things work. I personally think you'll go mad if you try and read past Genesis and think it follows any sort of organized system. Most christians tend to either ignore that there are contradictions, or pick the ones which sound right for them.

But perhaps actual christians on the board can answer for themselves.

Well...thats easy...even a Non Christian like me can answer it.

Because faith...as AquaticSub has pointed out, doesnt have anything to do with logic! It doesnt have to make sense.

You dont have to understand it, because beleiving in what you dont understand is a testament to your faith.

You cant question it, because if you question it, then do you really have such strong, solid faith?.

You dont have to defend it...because its faith...and defending it means you doubt it or feal its wrong (Probably why so few Christians are responding to the logic presented here).

Even someone like me is simply viewed as someone who is testing faith as to opposed to someone who could possibly be proving it wrong. The faith isnt wrong...I am just testing it.

Its a system of circular and flawed logic that is used to determine "truth", but when determing the "truth", doesnt allow for the possibility of being wrong.

Like a calculator that you can enter any mathematical equation into and it will return a 2 every single time, even if logic determines the answer to be a 3 or a 4.

Which is why debating religion can be such a drain and waste of time and why eventually, I have to gracefully bow out since the majority of the time, an indignidant and rude attitude is waitng for me.

If you keep trying to get a different answer with the calculator besides 2 when the only possiblity it can return is a 2, eventually you want to throw the damn thing out a window.

This thread reminds me of an antedote I heard once about the Hindu's view of the world. The Indian said "The world rested on an elephant and the elephant rested upon a tortoise." and when people asked "How about the tortoise?" the Indian said "Suppose we change the subject."

< Message edited by MadRabbit -- 4/24/2007 12:13:53 PM >

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Post #: 131

RE: Can you serve God and your Master? - 4/24/2007 11:52:13 AM

MadRabbit

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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveluci
For me, faith is the antithesis of logic: "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen" - Hebrews 11:1 and Christ Himself commended those who, unlike "doubting" Thomas, can believe without seeing, without proof. i can't use logic to "prove" what i believe. i just know i believe it and that's good enough for me. No, that's not intellectual and scholarly, but it's how it is for me......slave luci

The irony of this is that you are using logic to create a concept that doesnt allow for logic to prove you wrong.

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Post #: 132

RE: Can you serve God and your Master? - 4/24/2007 11:59:41 AM

MadRabbit

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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveluci
What would be the terminology then? If we are indeed "allowed" to choose but there is a consequence attached for not choosing "correctly" - if that isn't free will (which i see how it isn't), then what is it? You've got me intrigued now.........slave luci

Once again not speaking for L.A.

The termilogy would be an illusion.

If I go "I really want to steal this car and I am allowed to steal the car...but...if I steal the car, I am going to hell....so I better not steal the car."

My choice was influenced by the consequence....which begs the question...how free was my choice?

I'm allowed to do something, but what the boundaries of what I am allowed to do is being determined by the consequences indirectly.

Hence, by placing conequences, God is telling us what to do. He's just allowing us to be punished by him if we want to.

Much in the same way I am controlling my submisisve with the threat of punishment. The punishment is keeping her from being independant and free of my will.

Which begs the question, are we really free?

< Message edited by MadRabbit -- 4/24/2007 12:00:56 PM >

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RE: Can you serve God and your Master? - 4/24/2007 12:07:35 PM

MadRabbit

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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveluci

Well, "Christian" means "Christ-like" and hate is not Christ-like. That's about the best answer i can come up with. It's not up to me to decide who is Christian and who is not. That's between them and God. But something i think Christians (and others) forget is that there is a difference between judging and discerning. It is not for me to judge another (condemn them) but it is perfectly acceptable to use the sense God gave me to discern if their behavior seems to line up with Christian principles. In Scripture, we are told to "judge not" lest we "be judged." Having a discerning spirit, on the other hand, is actually encouraged. So, i'm not judging hatemongers, i am simply discerning that, according to Christ's principles, their behavior is definitely not Christian.

Well...except that Jesus showed quite a lot of hate, judgement and condemnation for people who disagreed with his teachings...

He said things to them like...

"Ye serpents, ye generations of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?"

That sounds very judgemental and condeming on his part.

And he taught things like...

"Whosever speakth against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him neither in this World or the world to come."

Eternal damnation for anyone that questioned what he was saying...

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Post #: 134

RE: Can you serve God and your Master? - 4/24/2007 12:11:28 PM

SirDominic

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Haven't had time to read through everyone's responses, but basing anything on the Bible is an exercise in futility. You can find within pieces of scripture to support practically any position you want to take on anything. The Bible had to have really been written by lawyers!

Namaste, Sir Dominic

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RE: Can you serve God and your Master? - 4/24/2007 12:17:19 PM

slaveluci

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveluci
For me, faith is the antithesis of logic: "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen" - Hebrews 11:1 and Christ Himself commended those who, unlike "doubting" Thomas, can believe without seeing, without proof. i can't use logic to "prove" what i believe. i just know i believe it and that's good enough for me. No, that's not intellectual and scholarly, but it's how it is for me......slave luci

The irony of this is that you are using logic to create a concept that doesnt allow for logic to prove you wrong.

How can logic prove wrong MY beliefs and opinions? When i say, "i have faith in these things regardless of what anyone says" that is my belief and my choice. You can't prove those wrong. You may attempt to disprove Christ's existence or some concrete thing like that but no one's opinions are wrong, by the very definition of the word "opinion"....................slave luci

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Post #: 136

RE: Can you serve God and your Master? - 4/24/2007 12:19:52 PM

LuckyAlbatross

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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveluci
How can logic prove wrong MY beliefs and opinions? When i say, "i have faith in these things regardless of what anyone says" that is my belief and my choice. You can't prove those wrong. You may attempt to disprove Christ's existence or some concrete thing like that but no one's opinions are wrong, by the very definition of the word "opinion"....................slave luci

Forgive him, he can be a little "zealous" at time. :)

He means you can't apply logic to an illogical system. Faith, specifically in this religion, is very illogical.

And opinions can be wrong- you can have an opinion that I'm an excellent dancer when I know full well I'm not.

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Post #: 137

RE: Can you serve God and your Master? - 4/24/2007 12:22:40 PM

slaveluci

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit
If I go "I really want to steal this car and I am allowed to steal the car...but...if I steal the car, I am going to hell....so I better not steal the car."
My choice was influenced by the consequence....which begs the question...how free was my choice?

Good point except Master pointed out something last night that i had not thought of when discoursing with LA: if you don't believe in the consequence (hell), how can it influence your decision? She was saying that when we are given a choice, it isn't free if there's a punishment attached to the "wrong" decision. But if you don't believe a hell exists, how much of a punishment is that really? How can it influence your decision if you don't even believe in its existance? Kind of like the example you used about your sub....if she knows there's NO WAY she is really going to be punished for choosing incorrectly, what's to keep her from doing so? You can't use hell as the punishment that's used to "coerce" you to follow Christianity if you don't even believe there IS a hell......slave luci

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Post #: 138

RE: Can you serve God and your Master? - 4/24/2007 12:26:03 PM

slaveluci

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross
Forgive him, he can be a little "zealous" at time. :)
He means you can't apply logic to an illogical system. Faith, specifically in this religion, is very illogical.
Now that, i'll buy.......
And opinions can be wrong- you can have an opinion that I'm an excellent dancer when I know full well I'm not.

ok, i'll give you that too....LOL....thanks for the humor.....luci

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Post #: 139

RE: Can you serve God and your Master? - 4/24/2007 12:26:56 PM

imthatacheyouhav

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quote:

The Bible had to have really been written by lawyers!

i'm generally a nice, mild mannered, even tempered person. Perhaps that has been demonstrated by all my previous posts....in reply to the above quote i simply say ....(without the normal regaurd i would have for how this sounds) GIVE ME A FUCKIN BREAK ALREADY!!!!!!!! gee whiz on a stick!!!

(in reply to SirDominic)

Post #: 140

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