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RE: I know better than YOU - 4/23/2007 9:48:38 PM

DarkDreams123

Posts: 74
Joined: 1/25/2007
Status: offline

Hi spanklette,

Thank you for the reply.

I appreciate that you trust your Dominant and give him control over your life. But did it start out like that? You must have started out not trusting him in all areas, and over time expanded that as you learned that you could trust him more and more. So, perhaps now you have given up most of the control of your life, but it was you that made that decision and it is you that is responsible for that decision. No one else can make it.

Let's also take a look at the future. Theoretically speaking: what if, in a couple of decades or so, your Dominant gets Alzheimer's disease. Would you trust him with all of the decisions about your life then?

Please understand that I'm not "knocking" your relationship. I just believe that no matter what control we give to others, ultimately, we are all still responsible for our own self.

-DarkDreams

(in reply to spanklette)

Post #: 61

RE: I know better than YOU - 4/23/2007 11:18:39 PM

spanklette

Posts: 882
Joined: 2/22/2005
Status: offline

Nope. It didn't start out like that. And, actually, I've never really tried to put a definition or a label to it...so, I can't tell you the exact moment that I was no longer in control of anything. We started out in a relationship first, with D/s being a common bond.

As far as Him getting some sort of ailment that caused issues with His decision making, well, I can only tell you that I would still offer my service to Him, albeit in a different capacity.

I'm not projecting the idea that I have no common sense and leave everything for Him to decide. His decisions are what I follow, but if it's something big, then we have probably discussed it ad nauseum.

The bottom line is the here and now. Right now, His word is the law around here and I'm merely a lobbyist.

< Message edited by spanklette -- 4/23/2007 11:19:25 PM >

_____________________________

~spanklette~

"The important thing is this: to be able at any moment to sacrifice what we are for what we could become. " Charles du Bois

"Please don't shout, can't you see I'm not listening." Billie Myers

(in reply to DarkDreams123)

Post #: 62

RE: I know better than YOU - 4/23/2007 11:36:44 PM

mnottertail

Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline

ad nauseam..........like nausea.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to spanklette)

Post #: 63

RE: I know better than YOU - 4/23/2007 11:49:47 PM

spanklette

Posts: 882
Joined: 2/22/2005
Status: offline

...to the point of nausea.

_____________________________

~spanklette~

"The important thing is this: to be able at any moment to sacrifice what we are for what we could become. " Charles du Bois

"Please don't shout, can't you see I'm not listening." Billie Myers

(in reply to mnottertail)

Post #: 64

RE: I know better than YOU - 4/24/2007 2:02:11 AM

Padriag

Posts: 2633
Joined: 3/30/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

Based upon what Padriag has said, which I absolutely agree with, and what many submissives have said, one could almost then assume that a sub/slave is more "me" focused and wants a dominant to be more focused on their sub/slave than themself and their own needs. In this light one would almost wonder who serves whom.

I think that would be a very risky generalization to make. It would be true in some cases, and probably entirely untrue in others, while partially true in still other cases.

I agree, there are those submissives more concerned with getting their own needs met than with serving the dominant. Such cases are another example of why a dominant needs to be a good observer of behavior, so that they can recognize it and avoid such people!

But in my own experience with individuals, most of the time it merely presented another opportunity for me to exert control. That I often had greater insight into specific areas of their life, their motivations in those areas, gave me a kind of power. Or rather, when I exercised that knowledge to guide their behavior into directions I desired, that was an exercise of both power and control. Had I not done so, I'd have missed an opportunity to exert myself. Had I allowed the submissive's need for that guidance to control the relationship or my own behavior, I'd have actually been giving up control.

My point being, often, I find that it is more what we do with the opportunities presented us that actually decides whether we perceive them to be opportunities or not.

quote:

All in all I am fascinated by this thread and the posts. I have always been a huge fan of people watching. It's amazing what can be learned by a little observation.

I absolutely agree. It is a very useful skill for anyone to possess. In dominants it is useful in exerting control. But among submissives it can be just as useful in providing service.

_____________________________

Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to LaTigresse)

Post #: 65

RE: I know better than YOU - 4/24/2007 2:14:53 AM

Padriag

Posts: 2633
Joined: 3/30/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

[another thought that just came up in discussion with kyra and myself. For some... who project this "All Knowing Master" BS... one has to wonder if their is not some motivating factor of dumping their responsibilities of self.

Thoughts that come to mind as motivations.... pride... insecurity... self deception...

Its funny to watch someone claim to be really terrific with a computer game... while using cheat codes and playing at the easiest difficulty level. There are always those who very much want to believe something about themselves, and pin their pride to it. But their insecurity is revealed in the fact that they avoid having that belief genuinely tested. A genuine self esteem enjoys a challenge, a puzzle to be solved, an obstacle to be overcome... and cherishes a good opponent. Why? Because any victory then gained means something because it was honestly earned, even a defeat can be an honorable one. We cannot have good self esteem without integrity... without what we say and believe matching what we do or what is fact.

_____________________________

Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 66

RE: I know better than YOU - 4/24/2007 2:22:50 AM

ExSteelAgain

Posts: 1803
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Georgia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: crouchingtigress

we all have emotional, intellectual and and spiritual blind spots, and the folks that are closest to us are the ones that can assist in pointing those out....however it is fallacy to feel a person knows some one better then they know themselves, arrogant, insolent, ignorant fallacy...and one treads there at their own peril.

Would you mind not sugar coating things so much. Heh. Actually, I agree with this and said something like it in a long winded way. I can also agree, as Padriag said, that we don't know ourselves as well as we think we do. That goes to each and everyone of us.

_____________________________

You can paint a cinder block bright pastel pink, but it's still a cinder block. (By Me.)

(in reply to crouchingtigress)

Post #: 67

RE: I know better than YOU - 4/24/2007 2:23:00 AM

Padriag

Posts: 2633
Joined: 3/30/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkDreams123

Now I have confessed my ignorance. Is someone here willing to enlighten me?

Its worth keeping in mind that we use many terms that if taken too literally, or if we assume too much a historical definition, lead to misunderstanding. TPE is a good example... is it literally total, no... it is "total" in some general, perhaps practical, form... arguably yes. Is it power being exchanged? Literally, arguably no, metaphorically, arguably yes. Just as it has been debated as to whether the best term is power, or control, or authority that is being exchanged.

Such debates sometimes get pedantic when the focus becomes trying to narrowly define things in absolute and literal terms. However, I find them to be useful when the focus remains merely exploring the understanding of the terms, what the metaphors represent and how that sometimes varies from one individual to the next.

_____________________________

Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to DarkDreams123)

Post #: 68

RE: I know better than YOU - 4/24/2007 2:33:43 AM

Padriag

Posts: 2633
Joined: 3/30/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Asraii

I doubt that there is anyone who could know me better than I know myself; even my past partners. Let's face it, ( for myself ) there are just some things that one NEVER tells another, I don't care how deep your relationship is. Something is always hidden.

Not to pick on you, but consider this. Suppose you keep something hidden, you have one thing or five things you've never revealed. Your partner meanwhile, understands, better than you, 10 things about yourself... who then knows you better... you for the one or the five things... or your partner for the 10 things?

I point this out because one of the differing assumptions in this thread seems to be that for someone to know you better they must have perfect knowledge about you, that's simply not true. No one has perfect knowledge of anyone, not even of themselves. Neither is it a reasonable assumption to make that a submissive would have some, good, poor, perfect or any other degree of self knowledge. Last I checked there was no "submissive finishing school" that turned out submissives all graduated to the same basic standards about whom we could make some generalizations.

The reality is, we're all individuals. Some of us are great observers, some are not. Some know themselves very well, some do not. Some are good at understanding others, some are not. Until we examine individuals, we cannot say any of this with any precision. Thus there are some submissives who know themselves well enough it would be difficult for another to know them better. There are some who may or may not know themselves, but spend so much time erecting "walls" and deceptions that it is unlikely anyone else would know them well (and how sad for them to have imprisoned themselves so). There are also some who are so skilled an observer they frequently do perceive more about others than those others do about themselves. Life is like that, chock full of variety.

_____________________________

Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to Asraii)

Post #: 69

RE: I know better than YOU - 4/24/2007 2:58:07 AM

Padriag

Posts: 2633
Joined: 3/30/2005
Status: offline

Hope you don't mind but something you said sparked a thought I wanted to comment on. Even though it may not be the case with you or what you meant.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie
There are areas I know better, which is the way I feel when I'm pained or joyous, etc. He certainly can not live and feel my history like I did, but he can offer perspectives on where I am today as a result.

I have often encountered individuals who carry around their pain from their past... with pride. They lament it and emphatically proclaim no one will ever really understand their pain. They wear their pain with pride, they cherish it, they make it into a badge of honor... it becomes a mark of their individuality, a part of their sense of self. They do not want anyone to understand it, and will defend that pain strongly, defend it from being understood, shared or in any way lifted. Confronted with someone who does understand it, their pride is wounded, their sense of self threatened... you have intruded on their private sense of individuality... you have unwittingly trespassed on their delusion and that will have offended them. Yet it is a delusion to think that no one can understand our pain, whatever it may be. There will always be someone else who has suffered similarly, or simply someone who is so empathetic that they genuinely do feel it even as you do, they see it in you and from that they do understand. Sometimes, for some, it is very hard to let go of their pain, to let it heal. And for a few, what is even more terrifying than the intrusion of someone else understanding... the terror of finally feeling connected to another... deeply. All walls are built for the same reason... the need to feel secure.

_____________________________

Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

Post #: 70

RE: I know better than YOU - 4/24/2007 4:36:53 AM

Asraii

Posts: 91
Status: offline

No picking taken

I don’t argue your points for generalization sake; I do however argue them for my sake. ( and I did point out that my post reflected me, not anyone else )

I have always been one to hold back a part of myself; and I know that this is something that will most probably never change ( it hasn’t in 20 years, I don’t see it happening now ). Nothing to do with hiding or not trusting; it’s just the way I am.

Of course, we could nitpick and try and decide if what I hold back is as important as what another discovers about me ( as you said, is my 5 more important than the 10 that my partner knows ).

Yet, emotionally, mentally, and psychologically; what I hold back will always be the things that another wants the most ( or believes that they need in order for us to have a healthy relationship)

(in reply to Padriag)

Post #: 71

RE: I know better than YOU - 4/24/2007 4:40:50 AM

slaveish

Posts: 1086
Joined: 2/19/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag

I have often encountered individuals who carry around their pain from their past... with pride. They lament it and emphatically proclaim no one will ever really understand their pain. They wear their pain with pride, they cherish it, they make it into a badge of honor... it becomes a mark of their individuality, a part of their sense of self. They do not want anyone to understand it,

It's called fear. Fear of being exposed. Fear of intimacy. It all boils down to the f-word.

_____________________________

You only lose what you cling to. ~~Gautama Sidharta

If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other. ~~Mother Teresa

(in reply to Padriag)

Post #: 72

RE: I know better than YOU - 4/24/2007 4:47:56 AM

Padriag

Posts: 2633
Joined: 3/30/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: amiciaN

It does make me wonder though... do other Dominants have 'owner's manuals' on their sub/slave too?

Ayup, I do... for a guy who never took notes in school... my how I've changed.

_____________________________

Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to amiciaN)

Post #: 73

RE: I know better than YOU - 4/24/2007 5:17:26 AM

spankmepink11

Posts: 1310
Joined: 9/28/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I think that sometimes people can look from the outside and see what makes us tick because they are more objective than we are about ourselves. But that does not mean they know us better, they just see things from a different perspective from the outside... sometimes there can be a perceptiveness in distance.

While i agree most with this concept, it made me also think of another posters reply regarding "watching the video" our partners are watching the video.
To take things a step further, I also believe that we all have "tells", little subconscious actions/reactions that lead our partners to believe that if they dig a bit deeper, great discoveries can be made together.
Aside from the "tells" they are many other ways we project our feelings, our inner selves, the partner who is a good listener, and observer will be attuned to that. It only seems that they "know me better than i know myself" .

Hope that makes sense, I'm on my first cup of coffee...

< Message edited by spankmepink11 -- 4/24/2007 5:18:09 AM >

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 74

RE: I know better than YOU - 4/24/2007 5:43:32 AM

agirl

Posts: 4530
Joined: 6/14/2004
Status: offline

I tend to assume that I know myself in a different way to anyone else. I experience *me* from the inside and I'm sure that there are many, many clues, hints and invites that indicate things about me, that I'm not aware that I'm giving, along with the ones that I AM aware of. Some people pick up on these things and others don't.

I can conciously share myself, but to an observant and interested person, I'll be unconciously doing so too. I don't assume that I *know* myself better than anyone else, I think that I hold information that I'm either giving with or without intent, and that I also withhold information with or without intent.

It always is a blend of what I'm doing and what the other person is capable of seeing.

agirl

(in reply to spankmepink11)

Post #: 75

RE: I know better than YOU - 4/24/2007 5:57:16 AM

Griswold

Posts: 2739
Joined: 2/12/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveish

quote:

ORIGINAL: Griswold

(I actually know everything)

Terrif!

(Now where are my f'n glasses???)

Oddly, that's the ONLY thing I don't know.

(in reply to slaveish)

Post #: 76

RE: I know better than YOU - 4/24/2007 6:49:37 AM

slaveish

Posts: 1086
Joined: 2/19/2007
Status: offline

~swearing~

~and groping~

_____________________________

You only lose what you cling to. ~~Gautama Sidharta

If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other. ~~Mother Teresa

(in reply to Griswold)

Post #: 77

RE: I know better than YOU - 4/24/2007 7:14:49 AM

ownedgirlie

Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag

Hope you don't mind but something you said sparked a thought I wanted to comment on. Even though it may not be the case with you or what you meant.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie
There are areas I know better, which is the way I feel when I'm pained or joyous, etc. He certainly can not live and feel my history like I did, but he can offer perspectives on where I am today as a result.

I have often encountered individuals who carry around their pain from their past... with pride. They lament it and emphatically proclaim no one will ever really understand their pain. They wear their pain with pride, they cherish it, they make it into a badge of honor... it becomes a mark of their individuality, a part of their sense of self. They do not want anyone to understand it, and will defend that pain strongly, defend it from being understood, shared or in any way lifted. Confronted with someone who does understand it, their pride is wounded, their sense of self threatened... you have intruded on their private sense of individuality... you have unwittingly trespassed on their delusion and that will have offended them. Yet it is a delusion to think that no one can understand our pain, whatever it may be. There will always be someone else who has suffered similarly, or simply someone who is so empathetic that they genuinely do feel it even as you do, they see it in you and from that they do understand. Sometimes, for some, it is very hard to let go of their pain, to let it heal. And for a few, what is even more terrifying than the intrusion of someone else understanding... the terror of finally feeling connected to another... deeply. All walls are built for the same reason... the need to feel secure.

Hi Padriag,

I don't mind at all. :)

You made a great point. It wasn't what I meant originally, but you managed to lay out how I used to feel, years ago. I did carry my pain around like some badge of honor and no one was going to dare penetrate that wall and "go there" in me. My Master, however, walked right in and said (literally) "Get over it" which of course infuriated me at the time. But life is so much better with the walls gone and with his understanding of what all the little pieces are that make the whole. He may not understand what it was like to be molested when just about half a decade old, for example, but he can sure see how that experience fits in with creating the final product.

This is why I say we learned to know me together. I had to be the one to actually expose myself and become vulnerable to him. He directed it. We both analyze myself. And based on his intimate knowledge of me as a result, he manages me in a way he finds best. He couldn't know me without my effort. I couldn't submit to him without his.

(in reply to Padriag)

Post #: 78

RE: I know better than YOU - 4/24/2007 7:40:25 AM

BeingChewsie

Posts: 1633
Joined: 10/27/2005
Status: offline

Hi owned,

I'm sure there is some connection between my dislike of responsbility, decisions making, and my lack of interpersonal boundaries/limits. I was born missing(or failed to develop) whatever the key component is that naturally causes that to occur in people. Whatever that check valve is, It didn't develop in me. I don't empathize or sympathize with people very well either, it is probably all connected. To say I suffer from "mind-blindness" would be pretty accurate...there is a connection with it all. It can't be counseled away, medicated away( it isn't a chemical imbalance), it isn't a matter of just doing it. It has to be managed and compensated for.

My owner is well aware of these things in me. He was from the get-go. They did not present a problem for him. He thinks they are just *me*, some a little quirky, some endearing, some a little annoying but its me.

It is because of that piece(or pieces) that I'm missing that make him a better steward of me than I am. We want everyone to fit into these tidy little boxes and we don't all fit.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

quote:

ORIGINAL: BeingChewsie

My owner is a far better manager of me than I ever was. There is no shame in admitting that, we all have our strengths and our weaknesses, we compensate for them in a variety of ways.

I share the same sentiment, Chewsie, and there is no shame in it at all. He and I both recognize it, and it gives him satisfaction to manage me as he does. He wouldn't do it if it didn't.

_____________________________

"In fact, it is my contention that most women are accepting of way less than optimal circumstance constantly, and are lucky to be 'snagged' by the right man, if ever. But it is more by happy accident than by their design. "
~Ron and Hup

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

Post #: 79

RE: I know better than YOU - 4/24/2007 8:01:13 AM

CreativeDominant

Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

quote:

ORIGINAL: mstrjx
From a submissive perspective, allowing another to make choices in 'X' area of his/her life, is this not an admission in some small way that their trust in that dominant partner allows them to feel that that partner is better apt (and better 'knowing') to take that control?

No, at least it's not for me. For me it is not an admission that they are "better" equipped....it is simply a decision on MY part to concede authority in "X" area. For me my decision to consent to such is not one that is based upon their "better" knowledge but upon my level of trust and comfort in their abilities to be "adequately" equipped to assume the responsibility of having such control. There is no assumption on my part that they will always make the decision that would be "better" for me than I would myself or that there will not be times when their decisions may definitely NOT be what is best for me.

As one might have guessed from my reply on the other threads concerning this, I am with Padriag and mstrjx on this.

You state that your submission is NOT an admission that the dominant is "better" equipped but rather, a decision on your part to concede authority in "X" area. If you can do that, which is part of what submission is...concession of authority...then that is great.

As Padriag and mstrjx noted, part of dominance is observation of a submissive's actions and listening to what they say they want and need and paying attention to their thought processes and reactions. This is how you learn about somebody and, with thought and reasoning, begin to "know" them. But what about those submissives who pay "lip service" to consent and concession, right up to the point when the dominant states that he/she wants something done this way and "this way" is a brand new, completely different way than the one the submissive would have chosen or seems to not take the submissive's thoughts into account? Or those who allow that "I know better..." thought process to permeate every part of their decision making when it comes time to submit to something they don't like but have not listed as a limit?

(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 80

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