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RE: I know better than YOU - 4/24/2007 8:20:41 AM

juliaoceania

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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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There have been times that I submitted to things I did not agree with, that I thought better of, and basically I did not think he "knew better" than me when I did them. I did them anyways. I have to say there has been a mixed bag of results with that, but that is ok with me. I trust him not to harm me, but that does not mean he knows better than I do about everything, including myself. He does know where he wants the relationship to go, he knows what sort of path he wants me on, and he takes the steps necessary to put me there... you see that is the reason I yield to him, I like being directed in a way that pleases him, and it creates balance for us. It has nothing to do with knowing me better than I know myself... it has everything to do with knowing where he wants me to be and leading me there. I will say one more thing about this, he wants me to know myself, he wants me to be self aware, that makes me of more value to him and a better submissive. It is important to him that I know what makes me tick and think about that so I can communicate it to him... he does not assume he knows how I feel about things, he does not assume to read my mind. But he has taken cues from me to guide me on the path of looking at what makes me tick, such as what upsets me, pushes my buttons, or makes me sad.

I recently took a flexible job that supposedly requires no responsibility or that I take any initiative, and yet, I am being asked all the time by other employees what they should do, as if I know better. This experience is a constant in my life for the last decade, people like direction, I know, I like it too. It does not mean that the person they are looking to for direction knows any better than they do, it means they do not want to make the decision and are willing to abdicate responsibility for it. Being aware of my own submissiveness has made me view these things differently than I used to.

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RE: I know better than YOU - 4/24/2007 8:42:41 AM

gypsygrl

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quote:

What about the idea that a Dominant, even the one who owns you will know you better than you know yourself?

I guess I expect that to happen in some sense of the word "know."

Part of it is because in developing an interaction, I'm internalizing the D's basic world view, so part of the 'me' to be known will, over time, be his, if that makes sense.

And, part of it is that he has a different perspecitive on me so can see things I can't. A simple example is that I can't see the back of my own head. No matter how hard I try, I cant do it without mirrors and then all I'm seeing is a reflection. Any other person who comes into contact with me sees the back of my head better than I do.

Then there's the fact that I tend to talk about myself alot. So, if they're paying even a little bit of attention, they ought to get to know me pretty well without a whole lot of trouble which provides a pretty good foundation for them knowing me better than myself.

And, if they never get to know me better than myself they can always wing it. I'm pretty gullable and will just accept as truth what someone I respect tells me is true. And the self and its psychology is a pretty slippery thing with no right answers so his word would probably be as good as mine.

< Message edited by gypsygrl -- 4/24/2007 8:44:11 AM >

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RE: I know better than YOU - 4/24/2007 8:53:02 AM

puella

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There have been some very interesting reactions and responses to this OP. I will admit to having been somewhat surprised at some of the content, but all in all it is proving to be very informative. Thank you all for contributing.

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We must move forward, not backward, upward, not forward, and always twirling, twirling, twirling towards freedom...... The Simpsons

War is God's way of teaching Americans geography." ...Ambrose Bierce

"Don't you oppress me!"....Stan/Loretta

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Post #: 83

RE: I know better than YOU - 4/24/2007 8:59:26 AM

mistoferin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant
But what about those submissives who pay "lip service" to consent and concession, right up to the point when the dominant states that he/she wants something done this way and "this way" is a brand new, completely different way than the one the submissive would have chosen or seems to not take the submissive's thoughts into account?

quote:

Or those who allow that "I know better..." thought process to permeate every part of their decision making when it comes time to submit to something they don't like but have not listed as a limit?

I would have to think that anyone who is "paying lip service" or withdrawing at the point that they simply do not like something is either playing a game and is not sincere in their concession of authority or has not given ample consideration to the concession of that authority.

As I said in my post:

quote:

There is no assumption on my part that they will always make the decision that would be "better" for me than I would myself or that there will not be times when their decisions may definitely NOT be what is best for me.

Maybe I didn't carry that statement out to the extent that I should have. What I am trying to say is that one needs to own the responsibility for their concession of that authority and it's possible failings. You can not concede that authority with the presumption that the Dominant will always be perfect and correct. You have to understand and assume responsibilty for your submission knowing that in doing so you accept the risk that it may not always be perfect or what you want. To withdraw that consent in situations other than what you honestly perceive to be of great consequence or detriment is indicative that you have not fully thought through the possible conclusions inferred by your concession. In situations where you do honestly perceive great consequence or detriment, once again the resonsibility of the decision falls upon your shoulders.

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RE: I know better than YOU - 4/24/2007 9:12:46 AM

LaTigresse

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quote:

ORIGINAL: puella

There have been some very interesting reactions and responses to this OP. I will admit to having been somewhat surprised at some of the content, but all in all it is proving to be very informative. Thank you all for contributing.

Most definately. I keep bopping in to read the additions, mulling alot over in my mind.

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Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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Post #: 85

RE: I know better than YOU - 4/24/2007 1:36:26 PM

puella

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...well it seems to have shrivelled up now... do I need a mint?

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We must move forward, not backward, upward, not forward, and always twirling, twirling, twirling towards freedom...... The Simpsons

War is God's way of teaching Americans geography." ...Ambrose Bierce

"Don't you oppress me!"....Stan/Loretta

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RE: I know better than YOU - 4/24/2007 2:25:01 PM

cloudboy

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Sometimes arrogance is so perfect and sometimes it is so wrong.

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RE: I know better than YOU - 4/24/2007 2:31:16 PM

puella

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I shall take that as a giant yes, then.

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We must move forward, not backward, upward, not forward, and always twirling, twirling, twirling towards freedom...... The Simpsons

War is God's way of teaching Americans geography." ...Ambrose Bierce

"Don't you oppress me!"....Stan/Loretta

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Post #: 88

RE: I know better than YOU - 4/24/2007 4:03:18 PM

Griswold

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quote:

ORIGINAL: puella

A curious thought popped into my head when I was perusing the 'I Know Better than Your Master' thread.

What about the idea that a Dominant, even the one who owns you will know you better than you know yourself?

I really have trouble with that. I have even more trouble with those who espouse the idea that (I am just going with my gender here) a male dominant has some god given genetic decoder mechanism which allows him to know more than a female submissive about what will damage her (all she has to do is trust in her femaleness and his domly man-ness and surrender to her true self, etc etc). I am wondering what others think about this (my previous sentence having pretty obviously revealed my own thoughts on the idea).

It also makes me wonder if, you are willing to admit that no one can know a person like they know him/herself, can there ever really be TPE, no limits, no boundaries... or can there be such a thing with any real good conscience (unless of course the owner has the same 'limits/boundaries' as the slave in question)?.

I was with a Dominant for a period, and she used to tell me "ya know...I tell you something and it doesn't fucking register for six months....and then you come to me and tell me how prescient I was".

(I always got the last laugh 'cause I waited 7 months and then I made it sound like it was my idea....she never caught on).

I showed her!

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RE: I know better than YOU - 4/24/2007 5:25:21 PM

CreativeDominant

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant
But what about those submissives who pay "lip service" to consent and concession, right up to the point when the dominant states that he/she wants something done this way and "this way" is a brand new, completely different way than the one the submissive would have chosen or seems to not take the submissive's thoughts into account?

quote:

Or those who allow that "I know better..." thought process to permeate every part of their decision making when it comes time to submit to something they don't like but have not listed as a limit?

I would have to think that anyone who is "paying lip service" or withdrawing at the point that they simply do not like something is either playing a game and is not sincere in their concession of authority or has not given ample consideration to the concession of that authority.

As I said in my post:

quote:

There is no assumption on my part that they will always make the decision that would be "better" for me than I would myself or that there will not be times when their decisions may definitely NOT be what is best for me.

Maybe I didn't carry that statement out to the extent that I should have. What I am trying to say is that one needs to own the responsibility for their concession of that authority and it's possible failings. You can not concede that authority with the presumption that the Dominant will always be perfect and correct. You have to understand and assume responsibilty for your submission knowing that in doing so you accept the risk that it may not always be perfect or what you want. To withdraw that consent in situations other than what you honestly perceive to be of great consequence or detriment is indicative that you have not fully thought through the possible conclusions inferred by your concession. In situations where you do honestly perceive great consequence or detriment, once again the resonsibility of the decision falls upon your shoulders.

Yes, they do need to own it. I am a big believer in the idea of personal responsibility and, so far, I have found there to be no ways in which personal responsibility has to interfere with submission. But you mentioned a situation above in which the submissive might...and should... withdraw her consent in a situation in which she perceives the consequences to be disastrous. What if the dominant disagrees with her perspective? If he is honorable, he will state his opposition to her viewpoint but will allow the submission/consent to be withdrawn in that instance. I would also assume that there would probably be a good deal of discussion regarding the variance in perspective amd hopefully, she will be able to show him calmly and clearly through reasoning why it would be disastrous.
I think the problem comes in though when a submissive chooses to do so because she has been thinking about it, does not like doing the play/work as stated and what she perceives as the end results...not fears it because of disastrous consequences, merely dislikes/resents it going this way...and so withdraws her consent. Again, time for discussion in my view.
Of course, there is trouble here from the dominant side too...the dominant who just decides to plow ahead even when hearing a well-reasoned argument OR just plowing ahead without even bothering to hear the argument or just stubbornly saying "I am right, you are wrong" but without ever presenting his well-reasoned argument in a situation where it may well be called for.

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Post #: 90