RE: Oh Goody!!!

RE: Oh Goody!!! (Full Version)

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farglebargle -> RE: Oh Goody!!! (4/30/2007 11:00:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Archer A to the Rights argument from the Declaration of Independance the inalienable rights are not all enummerated, and to assume that every right granted in the Constitution is based on an inalienable right granted by their creator is a fatally flawed assumption. Civil rights are granted by the civil autorities and can be removed when the social contract is violated by the citizen or alien. Legal theory that applies would be contract law, where a contract sets for that the contract does not survive beyond a break. Even the constitution provides that one's Liberty can be taken away after due process. So if your argument that a right cannot be taken away held then The Constitution breaks the idea set forth in the Declaration of Independance. Ammendment 5 "...nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law..." So two of the supposedly inallienable rights can be removed with due process of law. Game Set and Match I expect as long as an INDIVIDUAL enjoys exactly the same privileges as, say , General Electric, then I'd go along with that. Let's say, you're Union Carbide, and you go and 15,000 people by releasing poison into the air. Union Carbide should get the death penalty, shouldn't they? Well, what did happen after Bhopal?

farglebargle -> RE: Oh Goody!!! (4/30/2007 11:05:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Archer Flawed again fargle those bytes of data are almost never the product itself. Information is not usually a product, when the bytes represent money then banking laws apply and the money and goods are tracked that way. Edited section added: Those transactions are recorded on the books of the Multi National and that transaction should it have a tax consequence will come forth at the end of the quarter when filed. Transfer the Doohicky from Subsidiary A (in the USA) to Subbsidiary B (in India) It goes off the books in the USA and on the books in India and any customs happens when the Hard Good (Capital) represented by the bytes actually crosses a boarder. When it leaves a US port it clears US Customs and when it arrives in an Indian port it then clears Indian Customs. Try a hard good or money the definition of Capital and your argument fails as those transfers of bytes representing financial transfers are regulated and recorded. When they represent information they do not meet the definition of Capital. What are the tarriff's paid on that physical property? And I'd suggest you're underestimating the value of "Intellectual Property".

popeye1250 -> RE: Oh Goody!!! (4/30/2007 11:08:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle quote: ORIGINAL: Archer A to the Rights argument from the Declaration of Independance the inalienable rights are not all enummerated, and to assume that every right granted in the Constitution is based on an inalienable right granted by their creator is a fatally flawed assumption. Civil rights are granted by the civil autorities and can be removed when the social contract is violated by the citizen or alien. Legal theory that applies would be contract law, where a contract sets for that the contract does not survive beyond a break. Even the constitution provides that one's Liberty can be taken away after due process. So if your argument that a right cannot be taken away held then The Constitution breaks the idea set forth in the Declaration of Independance. Ammendment 5 "...nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law..." So two of the supposedly inallienable rights can be removed with due process of law. Game Set and Match I expect as long as an INDIVIDUAL enjoys exactly the same privileges as, say , General Electric, then I'd go along with that. Let's say, you're Union Carbide, and you go and 15,000 people by releasing poison into the air. Union Carbide should get the death penalty, shouldn't they? Well, what did happen after Bhopal? Fargle, what the HELL are you talking about? You're not making a lot of sense. You've been a little "off" the last few days. "General Electric, Bophal, Union Carbide?"?? What does that have to do with this thread?

Archer -> RE: Oh Goody!!! (4/30/2007 11:09:10 PM)
Clarify the point fargle appears to be deflection to me at this point. You set forth the argument that rights could not be removed. I set forth the counter that they can be and gave lucid sources for the opinion. Same sources you were trying to say gave inallienable rights. Actually though corporations have some civil rights but not others. The reason is simple they are not full humans so their rights are not te same as those of actual Human beings. However to assume the founding Father's didn't have knowledge of them is faulty. Most of them dealt with corporations, on onle level or another. The Mayflower Compact was in essence a corporation. And corporations have been around in the Americas for over a century before the Constitution. Their legal status is if I am not mistaken a part of English Common Law and thus US treatment of them derived though that line.

selfbnd411 -> RE: Oh Goody!!! (4/30/2007 11:13:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 They have brought LEPROSY into the U.S. There have been a few outbreaks in the North East part of the country! Jeez, you left out Popery! [sm=ofcourse.gif]

farglebargle -> RE: Oh Goody!!! (4/30/2007 11:13:42 PM)
I'm saying that the laws should be equally enforced whether it's some Piece-of-Shit-Corporation, or a Real-Flesh-and-Blood-Person. And since the Corporations ( Who in this instance are the embodiment of "Capital") have such an advantage, compared to the Individual ("Labor"), ( as in, a Corporation kills 15,000 people and isn't put to death, but a PERSON who did the same thing (cough Saddam Hussein cough ) is hanged like a criminal. This entire immigration "issue" is just "Capital" using propaganda to divide "Labor", and thereby cement their incredible advantage. "We know where we're going We know where we're from We Leaving Babylon- We goin to our Father's Land....."

Archer -> RE: Oh Goody!!! (4/30/2007 11:13:59 PM)
So fargle are you saying that the stockholders should be jointly and severably liable reguardless of how much or little stock they have in a company like Union Carbide? Death for every stockholder? That's gonna be one helll of a long trial, defendant #9870209248 Holds i share in the form of a Mutual fund, how do you plead?

farglebargle -> RE: Oh Goody!!! (4/30/2007 11:14:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Archer So fargle are you saying that the stockholders should be jointly and severably liable reguardless of how much or little stock they have in a company like Union Carbide? Death for every stockholder? That's gonna be one helll of a long trial, defendant #9870209248 Holds i share in the form of a Mutual fund, how do you plead? Dissolve the Corporate Charter, and liquidate the assets back to the investors. Let them pay closer attention to the PROPER behavior of Their Creation next time. Or don't relinquish control, and just run your own company YOURSELF without hiding behind a Corporate Fascade, trying to dodge taxes and/or liability for misdeeds. Not that there's anything necessarily EVIL about a real-flesh-and-blood being creative with the revenooers. Corporations have AGREED to go by the regulations, so it's wrong for one-of-them to try and dodge a tax, btw.

Archer -> RE: Oh Goody!!! (4/30/2007 11:20:01 PM)
If you give the Corporation and the individual the exact same treatment then the corporations get to vote too????? See the argument is flawed on that level as well, Individuals get numerous rights that corporations do not. Equal would mean they get the same treatment across the board. That protection against personal liability of every stockholder joint and severable, is what the entire Capitalist system is based on remove it and we're back to Partnerships and Sole Proprietors and the economies of scale fall to hell. The production of anything over a 1 or 2 million dollar project becomes all but impossible.

popeye1250 -> RE: Oh Goody!!! (4/30/2007 11:20:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle I'm saying that the laws should be equally enforced whether it's some Piece-of-Shit-Corporation, or a Real-Flesh-and-Blood-Person. And since the Corporations ( Who in this instance are the embodiment of "Capital") have such an advantage, compared to the Individual ("Labor"), ( as in, a Corporation kills 15,000 people and isn't put to death, but a PERSON who did the same thing (cough Saddam Hussein cough ) is hanged like a criminal. This entire immigration "issue" is just "Capital" using propaganda to divide "Labor", and thereby cement their incredible advantage. "We know where we're going We know where we're from We Leaving Babylon- We goin to our Father's Land....." Well, you're getting closer! YES, enforce our laws! That's what the lion's share of Americans want done. However, Bush's cronies and the Chamber of Commerce want to keep using cheap illegal labor and in turn make more money while hurting the working people in this country. Cripes, if we let this shit continue we'll all be making $6 an hour!

Archer -> RE: Oh Goody!!! (4/30/2007 11:26:44 PM)
Another basic problem with the line of reasoning. Corporations do not have "free will" they are steared by Individual people who have that free will. If an employee makes a bad call, or even commits a criminal act then the individual(s) is responsible for that act. The Corporation didn't commit the crime Individuals inside it did. Punish the wrong doers not the bystanders. This of course assumes as has always been the case that the decission directly leading to the crime was not voted on by the entire stockholder group.

popeye1250 -> RE: Oh Goody!!! (4/30/2007 11:27:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: selfbnd411 quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 They have brought LEPROSY into the U.S. There have been a few outbreaks in the North East part of the country! Jeez, you left out Popery! [sm=ofcourse.gif] Self, "Popery" as in Catholicism? Archer, you are correct Sir. I seem to remember "The Dutch West Indies Company" in the 1600's and another English one with "India" in it's name. And of course many Shipping companies that were financed by shareholders. Does "Loyds of London" go back that far I wonder?

Archer -> RE: Oh Goody!!! (4/30/2007 11:34:58 PM)
I'm not against "Free Labor" I contend we have it now. There is no excise tax on immigrants who enter legally and go to work here in the US. Now those who enter without being recorded and inspected for comunicable disease, criminal records, etc they have bypassed customs which has the further job of making sure what products (including labor) cross the boarder are recorded and inspected. I have far less problem with where an immigrant comes from if they enter the country legally. The quotas etc set forth for decades on X from latin america, Y from Western Europe, Z from Asia, etc that is another issue, and one that needs to be adressed. The biggest problem I have with illegal Immigration is that it forces us to restrict legal immigration levels further than would be nessisary otherwise.

selfbnd411 -> RE: Oh Goody!!! (4/30/2007 11:51:33 PM)
From USA Today: Local politico says illegal immigration is Satan's work Is Satan to blame for illegal immigration? Don Larsen, an official with the Utah County Republican Party, thinks so, and he's produced 1,300 copies of a proposed resolution for delegates to consider in advance of today's convention. Local GOP officials say they don't expect the resolution to get much support from the rank-and-file, but it is garnering lots of media attention in conservative Utah. Here's what it says: "In order for Satan to establish his 'New World Order' and destroy the freedom of all people as predicted in the Scriptures, he must first destroy the U.S.," the resolution says, according to The Salt Lake Tribune. "There are ways to destroy a nation other than with bombs or bullets. The mostly quiet and unspectacular invasion of illegal immigrants does not focus the attention of the nation the way open warfare does but is all the more insidious for its stealth and innocuousness," it continues, according to the Deseret News. A delegate who claims to have received the resolution in the mail republished it on a blog. http://blogs.usatoday.com/ondeadline/2007/04/local_politicia.html

juliaoceania -> RE: Oh Goody!!! (5/1/2007 7:25:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Archer Problem is you can't simply have free labor trversing boarders unrecorded, We don't have Capital doing that either. It crosses borders and clears Customs. Now the law may be with Free Trade that there is no Tax on the import of goods, but that does not mean the goods can come across without being checked by Customs Officials. And when checked it has to meet certain lawfull codes of where it is going and how it is packaged. So the Free Labor Argument fails. Since Free refers to taxes and duties and there is none placed on immigrants who enter the country legally we have Free Labor. What taxes they pay are based on income not enterance. I suppose if illegals were made legal then they could cross the border and be counted. It would make it more obvious that anyone crossing illegally was smuggling something in or out

LotusSong -> RE: Oh Goody!!! (5/1/2007 7:25:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle quote: ORIGINAL: LotusSong Tomorrow there is going to be another illegal immigrant march. I just finished listening to the organizer of said march lamenting that they are marching for rights. They can't vote or receive benefits. WHEN are they going to get it through their heads.. it's because the moment you snuck into this country breaking the law!!! When you do that.. you GET no rights, just as if you broke into my home through an unlocked back door and demanded a room and food as your "right" just because you made it in the back door. THIS time...since they are all out in the open.. arrest them all and ship them back until they understand the system. I'm TOTALLY fed up! If it's the right of Capital to have Free Markets, why isn't it the right of Labor? Start a new thread for yourself, fargle. This is about illegal immigration. The exploitation of those who try to start life on the wrong foot is another thread.

Sinergy -> RE: Oh Goody!!! (5/1/2007 12:00:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Archer So fargle are you saying that the stockholders should be jointly and severably liable reguardless of how much or little stock they have in a company like Union Carbide? Death for every stockholder? That's gonna be one helll of a long trial, defendant #9870209248 Holds i share in the form of a Mutual fund, how do you plead? I believe farglebargle's point is emphasized by your statement, Archer. A corporation is a soulless entity comprised of many who cannot be held accountable for their actions in a court of law, whereas if you went out and killed thousands of people with poison gas you would be tried, convicted, and imprisoned. A corporation protects the people who work at it from the consequences of their actions. It protects the people who invest in it from the consequences of their actions. It allows evil to flourish. Sinergy p.s. Actually, while it might be difficult to bring all the people in, perhaps that might be a good method to use to make stockholders invest rationally and ethically if they know that they could be held criminally liable. Could add the brokers and investment specialists who reinvest the money as well.

popeye1250 -> RE: Oh Goody!!! (5/1/2007 12:07:44 PM)
Lotus, and anyone else. go to -congress.org- and type in your zip code and it will tell you who your congressman is. I'm watching all this on CNN and they had an interview with an illegal alien for a segment about "families being seperated." This illegal said he wants to bring his elderly sick parents here from Mexico. Nice, elderly. Sick. And I wonder who's expected to pick up the $400 per day tab for a nursing home or hospital costs? And here's a Toll Free number for congress and the senate; 1-866-340-9281. I called my congressman's office about 20 minutes ago and I could hear their phones ringing in the background and I asked the staffer if they were getting many calls on this and he said they were and that everyone of them were against any type of amnesty or guestworker status and that many people want that border closed. I told him he could add me to that list too. The people in Washington had better start listening to The People or we'll just have another "interesting" election again.

Devilslilsister -> RE: Oh Goody!!! (5/1/2007 1:04:47 PM)
If we get rid of all the illegal immigrants............. whose going to do all the shitty jobs? If we LEGALIZE them......... its solves a world of problems. Legalize them AND then arrest them for breaking the law.... and then have them pay resitution for the rest of their lives..... have them do community service (like they arent already)..... pay taxes....... hell - the illegal immigrates are part of the economy now. You'd piss alot of people off who need their cheap labor if you kicked em all out. legalize them.

popeye1250 -> RE: Oh Goody!!! (5/1/2007 1:13:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Devilslilsister If we get rid of all the illegal immigrants............. whose going to do all the shitty jobs? If we LEGALIZE them......... its solves a world of problems. Legalize them AND then arrest them for breaking the law.... and then have them pay resitution for the rest of their lives..... have them do community service (like they arent already)..... pay taxes....... hell - the illegal immigrates are part of the economy now. You'd piss alot of people off who need their cheap labor if you kicked em all out. legalize them. OK, then how's about Legalizing Bankrobbers, Rapists, and Muggers too? Don't worry about the economy. It will adjust. The people who hire illegal aliens (a federal felony) will just have to drive Cadillacs instead of Mercedes Benzes.

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