RE: Dealing with childish, bratty, selfish subs

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OsideGirl -> RE: Dealing with childish, bratty, selfish subs (5/3/2007 9:48:22 AM)
Well from my own view: Typically if I'm acting mouthy or bitchy....there's a reason. It's called "real life". When I'm like that the absolutely last thing that would work with me would be the "I'm the Dom, it's my way or the highway" routine. It would most likely end up in a haul out, knock down argument. When I behave that way it's because there is something else bothering me. I'm a worrier and I tend to accelerate the things I worry about. If my pay check is less than I thought it would be, I'll lay awake at night obsessing if we'll be able to pay our bills and eventually run it out to being homeless, living in the car with the dogs. I get tense and snappy during those times. I don't talk to him about it because I know it's silly (even though he won't treat it that way). Punishing me would only drive me further away. The best thing (and Master does this) is sit down and go "Okay, what's bothering you?" and we talk. The bottom line is that not addressing what is causing the bratty behavior will cause the relationship to fester and fail. If she's naturally a brat, all well and good. Some people enjoy that. If she's behaving out because of other issues placing her in the corner will only hasten the end of your realtionship. A D/s realtionship is still a relationship and it will require the effort on both parts to survive.

slaveluci -> RE: Dealing with childish, bratty, selfish subs (5/3/2007 10:47:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ThunderRoad Welcome to married life, eh? only in hell - certainly not MY definition of what married life should be. I guess my quandry is this. When a stubborn bratty (in the definition of being a 4 year old) bitchy sub just plain refuses to accept a punishment or play along, what's a dom supposed to do? Put his/her foot down and let the "brat" know what is expected. IMO, brattiness is an excuse to be disobedient and disrespectful (please, don't all the bratty subs shred me - i said IMO and this means in my relationship). i accept that roleplaying "brattiness" can be fun for some and i suppose i can see why. But, as a way of life, it would embarrass me to act in such a dishonorable way to my Master. Last night, for example, we were lying in bed and she got mouthy and I tell her to go stand in the corner and her response is "Oh fuck that and she just rolled over." To me, that doesn't sound like someone who is sure she wants a D/s relationship. i would have politely told her to take her disrespectful, "bratty" ass into another room until she understood how to act. This morning, she apologized for her behavior (unprompted) yeah, most disrespectful "children" do apologize after they've had their fit and realize they better start being nice in order to get what they want again. i'm sorry, i just simply cannot imagine my Master tolerating this kind of disrespect. If she's angling for a spanking or something like that, that would be the last thing i would give her. She needs to learn how to respect you and if she's unwilling to learn to do that, i think you have some serious soul-searching to do, my friend.........slave luci (edited for clarification and after chilling out a bit[;)])

peepeegirl5 -> RE: Dealing with childish, bratty, selfish subs (5/3/2007 10:58:43 AM)
Nothing quite like a volcanic eruption next to you in bed. The dramatic release of energies which have been kept in check by an outer shell of play nice, often take paths of destruction. Objective confrontation is replaced with subjective irruption.Pressure from the past, repressed memories, more recent frustrations, even primitive cravings. Yet unless some form of release is experienced the very foundations of the personality itself are at risk. Males, in all of their overwhelming, godlike, and superior wisdom like to make t-shirts that say things like "Women must bitch or explode." The reality is that YOU were not measuring up, and thought to escape responsibility by snapping out some knee-jerk formulaic bullshit. The dominant is, in the deepest and best sense of the term, the Aristocrat. The flower, the blossom of a long line who have accepted responsibility for the group and community. Some things can't be learned, they are just known. John Lennon spoke to this in working class hero. And they think they're so clever, and classless, and free - but they're just fucking peasants as far as I can see. smewtches

MasterFireMaam -> RE: Dealing with childish, bratty, selfish subs (5/3/2007 11:04:03 AM)
Behavior like this is usually an indication that the person isn't communicating properly...and quite possible isn't self aware. She may full well think she wants this, but what she wants most, in her heart of hearts, might be totally different. I suggest start asking her introspective questions that aren't based on her behavior at first. Of course, she may refuse to do them...in which case, you can refuse to dominate her. Inappropriate behavior from her = not getting the desired relationship from you. Master Fire

slaveluci -> RE: Dealing with childish, bratty, selfish subs (5/3/2007 11:05:22 AM)
i posted before i read the other responses and it seems as if everyone else would go through a lot of work to get to the bottom of her "brattiness." i guess that is the best way to do it and i really do have respect for all those who saw the need to do so. In general, i respect most dominants as i can't imagine the level of patience and willingness to guide another that their position involves. i just had such an emotional response to the way he desribed her acting. i cannot IMAGINE having such an attitude or using such language toward my Master. Many times, i feel less than happy about something that has happened. i get sad, angry, worried, etc. just like anyone else does. BUT, i do not take it out on Him or act rude and disrespectful toward HIM. That is the worst thing i think i could do. He has always made it known that i not only can talk to Him about my feelings but that i MUST talk to Him about them. Telling Him to fuck off and disobeying Him would never be considered acceptable. Upon reflection, if i WERE to act as this sub did, Master would absolutely know that something bad was up and, believe me, neither of U/us would roll over and go to sleep until it was handled. He wouldn't do what i said i would do - send me to another room or throw me out. i was simply answering what i would do as a dominant. See...that's why i'm not a domininant[8D]. i couldn't deal with a bratty sub like that. i'd have to tell them to get out and find one who would show some respect. i realize that i would make a horrible dominant and i'm so glad i'll never be in that situation [:)]........slave luci (again...edited for clarification)

MistressDarling -> RE: Dealing with childish, bratty, selfish subs (5/3/2007 11:08:35 AM)
I use to be a bratty sub. I'd act out, then beg my Master to fogrive me. One day, he and I talked about it, and I realized it was because something was missing from our relationship. I wanted more than what I was getting. Apparently, it was all subconscious. Once I realized what it was, he and I were able to fix it. And from then on out our relationship was wonderful. Talk to her about it before you cast her aside. There may be something that bothers her.

slaveluci -> RE: Dealing with childish, bratty, selfish subs (5/3/2007 11:15:06 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MistressDarling I use to be a bratty sub. I'd act out, then beg my Master to fogrive me. One day, he and I talked about it, and I realized it was because something was missing from our relationship. I wanted more than what I was getting. Apparently, it was all subconscious. Once I realized what it was, he and I were able to fix it. And from then on out our relationship was wonderful. Talk to her about it before you cast her aside. There may be something that bothers her. Good points. Master pointed out that as far as the OP's sub, it would make a difference to Him whether or not this was a fairly isolated incident or is it regular behavior that occurs over and over. Anyone can have a bad day and react "wrongly" but is this something she does routinely? ........slave luci

peepeegirl5 -> RE: Dealing with childish, bratty, selfish subs (5/3/2007 11:15:51 AM)
In the impossible case that all of YOU brilliant "dom"s" and dog and horse trainers missed it due to insufferable, self-absorption and blind arrogance, the KEY phrase was "Oh fuck that and she just rolled over." The KEY word was "fuck." Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, and sometimes you just really need to give a FUCK. heheheheh, foolish males :)

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Dealing with childish, bratty, selfish subs (5/3/2007 11:17:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slaveluci i couldn't deal with a bratty sub like that. i'd have to tell them to get out and find one who would show some respect. i'm so glad i'll never be in that situation ........slave luci Luci, if they had gotten into this relationship fully basing things on a clear set of expectations and standards of behavior, if he'd listed off all the things he's tried and all the methods he's used which sounded a lot like the suggestions I'd given, if he'd mentioned that they were both making eachother unhappy and having doubts- my advice would have been a lot like yours. But it wasn't that situation at all. It's a couple who have been together awhile and want to make a real transition INTO ds, who have made a serious commitment to eachother but are not rushing into it, and a guy who was venting because he seems to sincerely want to make it work and just doesn't know how to see the path. So that's why I gave what I did. See, I really do put a lot of thought into what sort of answer to give and the same type of question can get quite a wide range of responses. Frankly, in 6 months, if he's genuinely tried all the steps I listed (starting with making sure there isn't a deeper issue going on), if he's sincerely been consistent, if she continues to be hot and cold, then it really might be the time to discuss whether this relationship will fit everyone in the long term. Until then, I see a lot to work with.

SimplyMichael -> RE: Dealing with childish, bratty, selfish subs (5/3/2007 11:23:21 AM)
losttreasure quote: It doesn't take much to remind me of my place Which is why my advice wasn't directed at you. As for treating a submissive like a child, I wasn't perhaps clear. When I say that I mean as a dominant one is modifying the behavior and molding someone to behave the way you desire them to be for you. Submissives crave attention and if you aren't careful, you can start to reward them with attention when they act out. So you must be very aware of which behaviors you reward with attention as well as the sort of attention you give them. That isn't the same as treating them like immature children or as incompetent adults. As someone else stated, it is the same with training a dog, and while eating out of a bowl may be hot for some, few want to shit in the yard and sleep outside in a dog house.

cjenny -> RE: Dealing with childish, bratty, selfish subs (5/3/2007 11:26:16 AM)
Some really fantastic advice was being given, then it seems like something happened and instead of advice the posts turned negative. I just don't get that. He is asking for advice on how to handle and change the situation for the better yet so many say 'dump the brat'. It feels to me that he is planning the future not seeking a way out. Some of the positive responses are going to be things that I read again for my own self.

kittinSol -> RE: Dealing with childish, bratty, selfish subs (5/3/2007 11:28:45 AM)
Yes, some comments were so articulate and intelligent I am taking a leaf out of their books.

slaveluci -> RE: Dealing with childish, bratty, selfish subs (5/3/2007 11:30:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross Luci, if they had gotten into this relationship fully basing things on a clear set of expectations and standards of behavior, if he'd listed off all the things he's tried and all the methods he's used which sounded a lot like the suggestions I'd given, if he'd mentioned that they were both making eachother unhappy and having doubts- my advice would have been a lot like yours. But it wasn't that situation at all. It's a couple who have been together awhile and want to make a real transition INTO ds, who have made a serious commitment to eachother but are not rushing into it, and a guy who was venting because he seems to sincerely want to make it work and just doesn't know how to see the path. So that's why I gave what I did. See, I really do put a lot of thought into what sort of answer to give and the same type of question can get quite a wide range of responses. Great points. You did put a lot of thought into your response and so did all the other posters before me. i was pleasantly surprised at how thoughtful and insightful everyone really was (dom and sub alike). You really can get a huge array of answers to the same question. i went back and edited a bit because emotion had gotten the better of me. i just pictured this happening between my Master and me and was appalled. As i admitted, i would make a horrible dominant[image]http://www.collarchat.com/micons/m28.gif[/image] and i realize that. i was simply looking at it solely through "slave" eyes and couldn't imagine such a scenario happening with me and Him. Frankly, in 6 months, if he's genuinely tried all the steps I listed (starting with making sure there isn't a deeper issue going on), if he's sincerely been consistent, if she continues to be hot and cold, then it really might be the time to discuss whether this relationship will fit everyone in the long term. Until then, I see a lot to work with. i see what you mean. i'm glad those with cooler heads prevailed, so to speak, and answered him offering sincere, helpful advice. i guess sometimes subs/slaves judge each other much harder than doms do [:)]. Thanks, slave luci

slaveluci -> RE: Dealing with childish, bratty, selfish subs (5/3/2007 11:33:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cjenny Some really fantastic advice was being given, then it seems like something happened and instead of advice the posts turned negative. I just don't get that. He is asking for advice on how to handle and change the situation for the better yet so many say 'dump the brat'. It feels to me that he is planning the future not seeking a way out. Some of the positive responses are going to be things that I read again for my own self. You're very right cjenny. i pretty much recanted my initial response (please see my reply to LA [:)]). You are very right and i give the OP much credit for not having done what i suggested he should have. It was a gut reaction, not a well-thought out plan of action. Thanks for the gentle reprimand....................................slave luci

Nogimmicks -> RE: Dealing with childish, bratty, selfish subs (5/3/2007 11:42:09 AM)
Peepeegirl, Great to see you on topic (I knew you had it in you). Tuche', as it were. However, I don't think she was making a reference here to needing a good roll in the hay. Besides, to my mind, it isn't about appeasing her, but altering the bad behavior. That isn't accomplished by buying into it, but, well, altering it, which amounts to training. Good thoughts though.

LaTigresse -> RE: Dealing with childish, bratty, selfish subs (5/3/2007 1:24:13 PM)
What a wonderful thread and some really amazing replies that have me thinking. The regulars here are just so awsome.

smilingjaguar -> RE: Dealing with childish, bratty, selfish subs (5/3/2007 1:31:47 PM)
I had a reply here and then Bill Gates ate it... I had a similar problem when I first started out. It took a lot of arguing and self reflection and bitchiness to finally yell at him that he just wasn't being dominant enough to make me comfortable submitting. I know that sounds screwed up, but it's true. I can't let go of the steering wheel until I know the person I'm handing off to has it squarely in his hands. He, on the other hand, admitted that he was taking it slow because he'd gone too fast with girls in the past and had bad results. He thought he'd run me off if he enforced the boundaries of our relationship, and I thought I was being a bad sub if I told him I needed more dominance and enforcement. We learned a lot from what started out to just be a jab at him to make him angry. From there he put in practice pretty much all of the advice you've gotten from other dominants in this thread. The ignoring worked wonders. I needed a certain amount of being put in my place as far as being physically and emotionally overpowered personally. Anyone ever seen supernanny where she keeps taking the kid back to the naughty corner and starting the time over? I swear she learned that from him. [:D] Once the inevitability of his orders being carried out mixed with the guilt from the ignoring thing, it was all over but the happiness for the most part.

losttreasure -> RE: Dealing with childish, bratty, selfish subs (5/3/2007 4:41:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael losttreasure quote: It doesn't take much to remind me of my place Which is why my advice wasn't directed at you. Of course it wasn't as I don't have a submissive who is misbehaving. The OP, however, needs to know that no advice is universal for submissives in this situation. By my comments, he's now witnessed that at least one type of submissive would react poorly to your suggestions. I'm not saying your advice is bad, merely that it would not apply to all. quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael As for treating a submissive like a child, I wasn't perhaps clear. When I say that I mean as a dominant one is modifying the behavior and molding someone to behave the way you desire them to be for you. Submissives crave attention and if you aren't careful, you can start to reward them with attention when they act out. So you must be very aware of which behaviors you reward with attention as well as the sort of attention you give them. That isn't the same as treating them like immature children or as incompetent adults. As someone else stated, it is the same with training a dog, and while eating out of a bowl may be hot for some, few want to shit in the yard and sleep outside in a dog house. Your previous comments were quite clear. I do understand the type of behavior modification and "training" that you have described. While it would apply to and be appreciated by many, my contention is that it would not be beneficial for all. Not all submissives need to be shaped, molded, threatened or cajoled into behaving in a manner that is pleasing to their dominant. Some of us just need to know what the expectations are (presented in a mature and rational way) and our natural desire to please and be pleasing is usually enough to keep us in line. That's not to say that occasionally there won't be need for correction or to be reminded. Submissives are "real" people, after all, and sometimes life does have a tendency to push people to their limits. None of us are perfect. My point is simply that there is no "one size fits all" remedy.

SimplyMichael -> RE: Dealing with childish, bratty, selfish subs (5/3/2007 5:01:22 PM)
quote: My point is simply that there is no "one size fits all" remedy. Thanks for that newsflash, I simply had no idea. I was stupid enough to base my opinion on what the OP said, I guess she could also be a secret Gorean Kajira and he should sprinkle TARN piss on her or something too. I will do my best to remember that not all women are the same.

FirmhandKY -> RE: Dealing with childish, bratty, selfish subs (5/3/2007 5:49:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael quote: My point is simply that there is no "one size fits all" remedy. Thanks for that newsflash, I simply had no idea. I was stupid enough to base my opinion on what the OP said, I guess she could also be a secret Gorean Kajira and he should sprinkle TARN piss on her or something too. I will do my best to remember that not all women are the same. I think your advice was very good, SM. I also think that treasure had a valid point. Why all the sarcasm now? FirmKY

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