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RE: Is it rape if she likes it? - 5/4/2007 12:23:40 PM

CuriousLord

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Joined: 4/3/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears
Obvious to your distorted mind perhaps - i beg to differ it would be to others. all i have to say is one big loud WOW!!!!

Yes, my mind is so obviously distorted for saying this guy wouldn't have enough evidence against him to go to jail.

I'm out of line here. Excuse me while I change my font to a bold navy color and insult you for being reasonable.

Edit: I'm just.. going to not respond to the rest of it, if it's all the same to you. You've pretty much left the arena of logical debate, and I'm really not into the emotionally-driven argument stuff.

< Message edited by CuriousLord -- 5/4/2007 12:25:50 PM >

(in reply to velvetears)

Post #: 101

RE: Is it rape if she likes it? - 5/4/2007 1:50:47 PM

Vendaval

Posts: 10297
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline

Just as education does not equal wisdom, youth does not equal
foolishness. Several of my closest friends are much younger than
I and have admirable character traits of intelligence, insight, clarity
and wisdom; as does NakedOnMyChain.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NakedOnMyChain

quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddyDeSade
How could educated young ladies of maybe 20-21 in university be so foolish? .

Because they still ARE 20-21 year olds.

That was an ignorant thing to say.

_____________________________

"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE

http://KinkMeet.co.uk

(in reply to NakedOnMyChain)

Post #: 102

RE: Is it rape if she likes it? - 5/4/2007 1:55:41 PM

Sinergy

Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mellissande

Sinergy, I am sure They do not mean it in the manner that you are taking it. and in some ways, they are saying that they enjoyed fighting you because they trust you. like a sub trusts her Dom. Do you understand what I mean? I am absolutely sure that they would not feel the same for an actual attacker.

I know that intellectually, Mellissande, but some days the whole thing just gets under my skin.

I feel what I feel until I am done feeling it, and then I move on.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle

(in reply to Mellissande)

Post #: 103

RE: Is it rape if she likes it? - 5/4/2007 1:56:52 PM

Vendaval

Posts: 10297
Joined: 1/15/2005
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General reply -

I want to express appreciation and admiration for the courage of those who have suffered
rape and sexual abuse for sharing their stories here. I am deeply saddened and outraged
at what happened you. And I am very much in appreciation of the persons who work with
the victims and survivors.

Walk in light and love,

Vendaval

(edited to add "survivors", thank you Sinergy)

< Message edited by Vendaval -- 5/4/2007 2:06:05 PM >

_____________________________

"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE

http://KinkMeet.co.uk

(in reply to Vendaval)

Post #: 104

RE: Is it rape if she likes it? - 5/4/2007 2:00:26 PM

Sinergy

Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

victims.

Vendaval,

Thank you for the lovely thoughts. I would never call somebody who survived what many of these people have been forced to endure "victims." They are survivors. See all sorts of victims in the morgue and the cemetary.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle

(in reply to Vendaval)

Post #: 105

RE: Is it rape if she likes it? - 5/4/2007 2:07:38 PM

Vendaval

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Joined: 1/15/2005
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Thank you for the gentle reminder, I just added "survivors".

_____________________________

"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE

http://KinkMeet.co.uk

(in reply to Sinergy)

Post #: 106

RE: Is it rape if she likes it? - 5/4/2007 2:12:26 PM

FirmhandKY

Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
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Ok, for a little (shudder) humor on the subject, I found this item on the net:

Rapex condom

These days, reverse clamping technology promoting an anti-rape agenda is being pioneered in South Africa, where close to 50,000 rapes -- date and otherwise -- are reported each year. In 2005, inventor Sonette Ehlers unveiled the Rapex condom, which women can conceal snugly in their vaginas (or rear ends) as they might a tampon (or butt plug). The device, made of 100% latex, is designed to pierce and snap around curious, intrusive penises with an battery of sharp, hook-like barbs.

When the device takes hold, the rapist "will obviously be too pre-occupied," Ehlers told a group of reporters near Cape Town. "I promise you he is going to be too sore. He will go straight to hospital."

In fact, the array of spears can only be removed from the penis through immediate surgery, effectively alerting hospital staff and police to the rapist's crime.

There is a photo on this site.

Other links:

RapeX Anti-rape condom site.

Anti-rape female condom

FirmKY

_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to CuriousLord)

Post #: 107

RE: Is it rape if she likes it? - 5/4/2007 2:20:57 PM

Hanable

Posts: 3284
Joined: 3/19/2007
From: BFE ohio
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i have read several pages since i last posted and i think everyone needs to take a nice deep breath and go over what is being said.. to many emotions r getting into this thread and where emotions r good for debate they cloud ur judgment and make u say stupid things.

H >:)

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Post #: 108

RE: Is it rape if she likes it? - 5/4/2007 2:59:43 PM

velvetears

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Joined: 6/19/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

Arrogance? If she went to the police and reported this guy- they'd tell her..
"Look, you were drunk. How do you know you didn't consent? Rape cases don't even go forward in 'his word versus her word' cases when there's no evidence- you want me to jail this guy based on the fact that, when drunk, you don't explicity remember providing consent after you took him back from the bar? You don't even know who he is, his name, or even what he looked like! There's nothing we can do for you."

I can't believe you said I was at the "height of ARROGANCE!!" for pointing out the guy wouldn't go to jail. Jeeze.

You don't know what you are talking about. Having sex with someone who is impaired is against the law for your information because the impaired person is not able to give consent. The police would be very interested in collecting evidence (semen) and pressing charges to put the scum bag away. Where do you get these things from??

_____________________________

Religion is for people who are scared of hell, Spirituality is for people who have been there

(in reply to CuriousLord)

Post #: 109

RE: Is it rape if she likes it? - 5/4/2007 3:03:40 PM

velvetears

Posts: 2933
Joined: 6/19/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

Yes, my mind is so obviously distorted for saying this guy wouldn't have enough evidence against him to go to jail.

I'm out of line here. Excuse me while I change my font to a bold navy color and insult you for being reasonable.

Edit: I'm just.. going to not respond to the rest of it, if it's all the same to you. You've pretty much left the arena of logical debate, and I'm really not into the emotionally-driven argument stuff.

At least i went and found one source to back me up - where's yours Mr Logic? Your claims are so illogical its laughable. Maybe i do get "emotional" when discussing such issues, especially when i come up against pompous know it alls such as yourself who basically talk out of their a****.

_____________________________

Religion is for people who are scared of hell, Spirituality is for people who have been there

(in reply to CuriousLord)

Post #: 110

RE: Is it rape if she likes it? - 5/4/2007 3:09:55 PM

Lordandmaster

Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline

You know, it's a violation of copyright to post page after page from a printed source. (Aside from the fact that it's annoying.) Anyone who wants to read that book can find it for himself.

Besides, you might have pointed out that most biologists have rejected its extravagant claims. Or maybe you weren't aware of that? Anyone who's seriously interested in the question might want to check out Evolution, Gender, and Rape, edited by Cheryl Brown Travis (MIT Press, 2003).

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Natural History of Rape
   Biological Bases of Sexual Coercion
   By RANDY THORNHILL and CRAIG T. PALMER
   The MIT Press
   (C) 2000 Massachusetts Institute of Technology All rights reserved. ISBN: 0-262-20125-9

(in reply to FirmhandKY)

Post #: 111

RE: Is it rape if she likes it? - 5/4/2007 3:30:41 PM

FirmhandKY

Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

You know, it's a violation of copyright to post page after page from a printed source. (Aside from the fact that it's annoying.) Anyone who wants to read that book can find it for himself.

Besides, you might have pointed out that most biologists have rejected its extravagant claims. Or maybe you weren't aware of that? Anyone who's seriously interested in the question might want to check out Evolution, Gender, and Rape, edited by Cheryl Brown Travis (MIT Press, 2003).

And, well, you know, if you know much about copyright, you may have heard of "fair use for educational, non-profit purposes" as well.

And don't give me that 300 word BS, either, unless you do a little research first.

If you read either the short excerpts that I posted or their complete book, you'll see some of their answers to the "social learning" explanation of rape. There is much, much more in their book that I didn't post.

As well, while there certainly is debate about the evolutionary psychology of rape, most of the complaints against it I have read are from one of two lines of thought:

1. The critics don't have a clue how evolution really works, and therefore do not understand what Thornhill is saying, or

2. The critics have a strong ideological reason to defend their own position.

I can certainly talk in detail about either, if you wish.

FirmKY

_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 112

RE: Is it rape if she likes it? - 5/4/2007 3:36:40 PM

darkinshadows

Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline

Life isn't always text book or studies.

There are always exceptions.

Having worked with rape victims, being believed by police or even gaining arrests is far from easy. CL is correct on that issue. Just search here for threads concerning rape - there have been plenty of cites where posters felt that the law services were unhelpful.

I know this is an emotional issue but name calling doesn't help. Fact is, now one can say that rape is just about control, same as someone cannot state that rape is just about sex. Motivation doesn't work like that. There isn't a simple one true way. No one can look into someone else brain. And the studies alter constantly. There are many ways and means to be raped. Because a person is battered and bruised, doesn't mean that sex wasn't the motivational key in the beginning.

Rape is defined as forced, manipulated or coerced sexual intercourse (or other sexual act) against the will of the victim.... forced or manipulated nonconsensual sexual contact, including vaginal or anal intercourse, oral sex, or penetration with an object. Without the sexual contact it would be abuse.

And I again point that you contradicted yourself with your own cite. Sadism is sexual arousel through causing pain. It is one of the four definitions you gave.

Of course it is easy to ignore me and that particular point, and much more 'fun' to let ones emotions loose in name calling and deriding people over the internet.

And yes, I am being persistant and rambling (as Darcy is all too used to - thank the godz for his patience) But then, as he knows, two things I feel extremely strongly about. And when there is misinformation and generalisation on one of those subjects, I think it is incredibly belittling to those who have suffered and been survivors of such traumatic acts... only to be told that it really wasn't rape because it was a sexually motivated attack.

End of.

(I can say that, I'm a Brit....)

Peace

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to velvetears)

Post #: 113

RE: Is it rape if she likes it? - 5/4/2007 4:01:44 PM

NakedOnMyChain

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Joined: 11/29/2004
From: Indiana
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Velvetears, have you ever been raped? Have you talked to every rapist and rape victim that ever lived? If not, it's the height of presumption to say you know the motivation for all rapes. We all agree that many rapes happen out of power or desire thereof. Who are you to say that none happen for pure sex?

What about harems in the middle ages? What about different cultures in which rape is common? What about any non-americanized, non-stereotypical type of rape? What about rape that occured in different situations throughout history? What about a man raping his wife out of sexual frustration? There are so many different reasons for everything that has ever happened. I wouldn't ever presume to say I know everyone's motivations.

_____________________________

"Oh, it's torture, but I'm almost there."
~The Cure

"I ask for so little. Just fear me, love me, do as I say, and I will be your slave."
~The Labyrinth

(in reply to velvetears)

Post #: 114

RE: Is it rape if she likes it? - 5/4/2007 4:06:30 PM

NakedOnMyChain

Posts: 2431
Joined: 11/29/2004
From: Indiana
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

Just as education does not equal wisdom, youth does not equal
foolishness. Several of my closest friends are much younger than
I and have admirable character traits of intelligence, insight, clarity
and wisdom; as does NakedOnMyChain.

Thank you, Vendaval.

_____________________________

"Oh, it's torture, but I'm almost there."
~The Cure

"I ask for so little. Just fear me, love me, do as I say, and I will be your slave."
~The Labyrinth

(in reply to Vendaval)

Post #: 115

RE: Is it rape if she likes it? - 5/4/2007 4:10:55 PM

Vendaval

Posts: 10297
Joined: 1/15/2005
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You are most welcome.

_____________________________

"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE

http://KinkMeet.co.uk

(in reply to NakedOnMyChain)

Post #: 116

RE: Is it rape if she likes it? - 5/4/2007 4:15:30 PM

cjenny

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Well and clearly stated.

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Post #: 117

RE: Is it rape if she likes it? - 5/4/2007 4:35:04 PM

velvetears

Posts: 2933
Joined: 6/19/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: darkinshadows

Life isn't always text book or studies.
You should direct this to CL as he's the one crying for citations not me
There are always exceptions.
Having worked with rape victims, being believed by police or even gaining arrests is far from easy. CL is correct on that issue.
i beg to differ - he did not say it wasn't easy he said the victim would not have a leg to stand on. It doesn't matter if police believe you or not - you have a right to be protected under the law and the law specifically states it is rape if you engage in sexual activity with a person thats impaired.
I know this is an emotional issue but name calling doesn't help.

i take it you mean when he called me ignorant and stupid

And I again point that you contradicted yourself with your own cite. Sadism is sexual arousel through causing pain. It is one of the four definitions you gave.
Of course it is easy to ignore me and that particular point, and much more 'fun' to let ones emotions loose in name calling and deriding people over the internet.

Not a contradiction the way i see it. Sadism is inflicting some form of pain and or humiliation on the victim - sex being the vehicle of the sadism and sadism being the motivating factor, force being the means to accomplish the act.

...I think it is incredibly belittling to those who have suffered and been survivors of such traumatic acts... only to be told that it really wasn't rape because it was a sexually motivated attack.

i certainly never made this claim - if i did please point it out to me. Anyone who has been forced or coersed in any way to engage in any sexual act - against their will, or in any way non consentual - is rape.

End of.
(I can say that, I'm a Brit....)
Peace

_____________________________

Religion is for people who are scared of hell, Spirituality is for people who have been there

(in reply to darkinshadows)

Post #: 118

RE: Is it rape if she likes it? - 5/4/2007 4:40:16 PM

velvetears

Posts: 2933
Joined: 6/19/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NakedOnMyChain

Velvetears, have you ever been raped? Have you talked to every rapist and rape victim that ever lived? If not, it's the height of presumption to say you know the motivation for all rapes. We all agree that many rapes happen out of power or desire thereof. Who are you to say that none happen for pure sex?

What about harems in the middle ages? What about different cultures in which rape is common? What about any non-americanized, non-stereotypical type of rape? What about rape that occured in different situations throughout history? What about a man raping his wife out of sexual frustration? There are so many different reasons for everything that has ever happened. I wouldn't ever presume to say I know everyone's motivations.

Well naked have you done research in this field? When you and CL were still in diapers i was researching and doing a mini thesis on these very issues. As for the personal questions about my own experiences or lack thereof with rape, all i have to say is, lets not get personal. i prefer to keep my business private - it serves no purpose to talk about it, whether i was or wasn't raped has no bearing on my thoughts and opinions here.

_____________________________

Religion is for people who are scared of hell, Spirituality is for people who have been there

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Post #: 119

RE: Is it rape if she likes it? - 5/4/2007 4:41:25 PM

CuriousLord

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Joined: 4/3/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

Arrogance? If she went to the police and reported this guy- they'd tell her..
"Look, you were drunk. How do you know you didn't consent? Rape cases don't even go forward in 'his word versus her word' cases when there's no evidence- you want me to jail this guy based on the fact that, when drunk, you don't explicity remember providing consent after you took him back from the bar? You don't even know who he is, his name, or even what he looked like! There's nothing we can do for you."

I can't believe you said I was at the "height of ARROGANCE!!" for pointing out the guy wouldn't go to jail. Jeeze.

You don't know what you are talking about. Having sex with someone who is impaired is against the law for your information because the impaired person is not able to give consent. The police would be very interested in collecting evidence (semen) and pressing charges to put the scum bag away. Where do you get these things from??

In a court of law, there's two sides to a story. The state must make its case against a defendant. You're innocent until proven guilty.

Now, in a case of "he raped me!", with no other evidence- as most men have the common sense to wear condoms with girls they pick up from the bar- what's the jury going to decide? He's not proven guilty. For all they know, this guy called her fat, they got into a big argument, and she's just making it up to get back at him.

Now, add in she was drunk and can't remember whether or not she provided consent? Even she's not sure he raped her! Maybe she consented, but just forgot due to alcohol! I mean, jeeze, the girl can't even, in good conscience, claim he raped her.

And, where do I get these things from? My father was an attorney. As is my uncle. I know the law and my way in and out of court. But, hell, this is common knowledge. How did you not know it?

Edit: I'm not responding to the second one. It was just name calling and such. Let's try to act like adults.

< Message edited by CuriousLord -- 5/4/2007 4:44:56 PM >

(in reply to velvetears)

Post #: 120

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