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RE: So what do YOU believe in? - 5/4/2007 1:49:29 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		Fatdad, please, please, PLEASE don't hijack the post and turn it into an anti-abortion rant.

We now all know how you feel on the subject of the female womb and its contents, and what should be done with them. Now, go back to your playpen.



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Profile   Post #: 21
RE: So what do YOU believe in? - 5/4/2007 1:57:15 PM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

NorthernGent, I share many of your beliefs. Problem is, I no longer believe in any political system. Governments were always fickle, but now they are licking the boots of the CEOs. They've become the sluts of the economy, running errands for the pension funds and their (surprise, they're invisible!) investors.



kittin,

Corporations are king, the government is their subjects, and we are their slaves.

What system do you believe in?

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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Profile   Post #: 22
RE: So what do YOU believe in? - 5/4/2007 1:59:24 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		Well I always had a soft spot for the old anarchy theory... but it's just that. A theory :-)

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Profile   Post #: 23
RE: So what do YOU believe in? - 5/4/2007 2:05:13 PM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline 		I can see the merit in it. Mutual aid, voluntary cooperation, free will, peace.

The problem is, we're so indoctrinated, many of us think life's all about individualism.

< Message edited by NorthernGent -- 5/4/2007 2:11:25 PM >

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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Profile   Post #: 24
RE: So what do YOU believe in? - 5/4/2007 2:18:18 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		Absolutely! *nodding head with undisguised enthusiasm*

It's only when one's truly indoctrinated that one denies it wholeheartedly. So I guess the bastards haven't got to you yet

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RE: So what do YOU believe in? - 5/4/2007 2:38:07 PM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		Expanding his political outlook NG said
quote:

The political system is simply a tool to aid the above, for me. The old Labour Party were as close as I've seen.

and couldnt get elected boom boom !

(in reply to kittinSol)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: So what do YOU believe in? - 5/4/2007 2:41:12 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		seeksfemslave, you are far too radical for me, darling. Your controversial posts make my blood boil. Meoowwww I hate cold baths!

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Profile   Post #: 27
RE: So what do YOU believe in? - 5/4/2007 2:49:05 PM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		OK Ms Sol but I like you profile pic so I just dont care lol

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Profile   Post #: 28
RE: So what do YOU believe in? - 5/4/2007 3:02:51 PM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Expanding his political outlook NG said
quote:

The political system is simply a tool to aid the above, for me. The old Labour Party were as close as I've seen.

and couldnt get elected boom boom !


I know history ain't your strong point, so I wasn't expecting much in the way of accuracy, but it's fair to say the old Labour Party did get elected - 7 times. Aren't you in your 60s? Born around 1945 - you've lived through 6 of these elections, so you should know.

In fact, results since 1945 stand Labour 9 v Conservative 8 v BNP 0.

Thus, it is fair to say that Labour is more electable than your choice (based on facts, rather than boom boom! and the rest of it).

Elections since 1945:





Monarch: King George VI, 1936-1952

Thu 5th July 1945
Party
Seats - %
Candidates
% Vote
Party leaders

Labour govt
Lab
393
61.4
604
(2 LD)
47.8 (+10.4)
C. Attlee

Majority = 147
Con+UU
212
+S
33.3
624
(5 LD)
39.8 (-13.9)
W. Churchill

Turnout = 72.6%
Lib
12
1.9
306
(76 LD)
9.0 (+0.8)
A. Sinclair
C. Davies

Cabinet members
Others
22
3.4
148
(99 LD)
3.4



Total
640

1682
(182 LD)

Manifestos



Thu 23rd Feb 1950
Party
Seats - %
Candidates
% Vote
Party leaders

Labour govt
Lab
315
50.4
617
(0 LD)
46.1 (-1.7)
C. Attlee

Majority = 6
Con+UU
297
+S
47.8
620
(5 LD)
43.5 (+3.7)
W. Churchill

Turnout = 84.1%
Lib
9
1.4
475
(319 LD)
9.1 (+1.4)
C. Davies

Cabinet members
Others
3
0.3
156
(137 LD)
0.1 (-1.4)



Total
625

1868
(461 LD)

Manifestos



Thu 25th Oct 1951
Party
Seats - %
Candidates
% Vote
Party leaders

Conservative govt
Con+UU
321
51.3
617
(3 LD)
48.0 (+4.5)
W. Churchill
A. Eden

Majority = 16 
Lab
295
47.2
617
(1 LD)
48.8 (+2.7)
C. Attlee

Turnout = 82.5%
Lib
6
0.96
109
(66 LD)
2.5 (-6.6)
C. Davies

Cabinet members
Others
3
0.48
148
(26 LD)
0.7 (-0.3)



Total
625

1376
(96 LD)

Manifestos

Monarch: Queen Elizabeth II (1952- )

Thu 26th May 1955
Party
Seats - %
Candidates
% Vote
Party leaders

Conservative govt
Con+UU
344
+S
54.8
623
(3 LD)
49.7 (+1.7)
A. Eden
H. Macmillan

Majority = 59
Lab
277
44.0
620
(1 LD)
46.4 (-2.4)
H. Gaitskell

Turnout = 76.8%
Lib
6
1.0
110
(60 LD)
2.7 (+0.2)
C. Davies
J. Grimond

Cabinet members
Others
2
0.3
56
(36 LD)
1.2 (+0.5)



Total
630

1409
(100 LD)

Manifestos



Thu 8th Oct 1959
Party
Seats - %
Candidates
% Vote
Party leaders

Conservative govt
Con+UU
365
57.9
625
(2 LD)
49.4 (-0.3)
H. Macmillan
A. Home

Majority = 99
Lab
258
41.0
621
(1 LD)
43.8 (-2.6)
H. Gaitskell
H. Wilson

Turnout = 78.8%
Lib
6
1.0
216
(55 LD)
5.9 (+3.2)
J. Grimond

Cabinet members
Others
1
0.0
74
(58 LD)
0.9 (-0.3)



Total
630

1536
(116 LD)

Manifestos



Thu 15th Oct 1964
Party
Seats - %
Candidates
% Vote
Party leaders

Labour govt
Lab
317
50.3
628
(8 LD)
44.1 (+0.3)
H. Wilson

Majority = 5
Con+UU
303
+S
48.3
630
(5 LD)
43.4 (-6.0)
A. Home
E. Heath

Turnout = 77.1%
Lib
9
1.4
365
(52 LD)
11.1 (+5.3)
J. Grimond

Cabinet members
Others
0
-
134
(121 LD)
1.3 (+0.4)



Total
630

1757
(186 LD)

Manifestos



Thu 31st Mar 1966
Party
Seats - %
Candidates
% Vote
Party leaders

Labour govt
Lab
363
+S
57.6
621
(3 LD)
47.9 (+3.8)
H. Wilson

Majority = 97
Con+UU
253
40.2
629
(9 LD)
41.9 (-1.5)
E. Heath

Turnout = 75.9%
Lib
12
1.9
311
(104 LD)
8.5 (-2.7)
J. Grimond
J. Thorpe

Cabinet members
Others
1
0.3
146
(121 LD)
1.7 (+0.4)



Total
630

1707
(237 LD)

Manifestos



Thu 18th June 1970
Party
Seats - %
Candidates
% Vote
Party leaders

Conservative govt
Con+UU
330
52.4
628
(10 LD)
46.4 (+3.0)
E. Heath

Majority = 31
Lab
287
+S
45.6
624
(6 LD)
43.0 (-1.1)
H. Wilson

Turnout = 72.0%
Lib
6
1.0
332
(184 LD)
7.5 (-3.7)
J. Thorpe

Cabinet members
Others
6
1.1
253
(208 LD)
3.2 (+1.9)



Total
630

1837
(408 LD)

Manifestos



Thu 28th Feb 1974
Party
Seats - %
Candidates
% Vote
Party leaders

Labour govt
Lab
301
47.4
623
(25 LD)
37.1 (-5.9)
H. Wilson

Minority govt
Con
296
+S
46.8
623
(8 LD)
37.9 (-8.5)
E. Heath

Turnout = 78.7%
Lib
14
2.2
517
(23 LD)
19.3 (+11.8)
J. Thorpe

Cabinet members
Others
23
3.6
372
(265 LD)
5.7 (+2.5)



Total
635

2135
(321 LD)

Manifestos



Thu 10th Oct 1974
Party
Seats - %
Candidates
% Vote
Party leaders

Labour govt
Lab
319
50.2
623
(13 LD)
39.2 (+2.1)
H. Wilson
J. Callaghan

Majority = 4
Con
276
+S
43.6
623
(28 LD)
35.8 (-2.1)
E. Heath
M. Thatcher

Turnout = 72.8%
Lib
13
2.0
619
(125 LD)
18.3 (-1.0)
J. Thorpe
J. Grimond
D. Steel

Cabinet members
Others
26
4.1
387
(276 LD)
6.7 (+1.0)



Total
635

2252
(442 LD)

Manifestos



Thu 3rd May 1979
Party
Seats - %
Candidates
% Vote
Party leaders

Conservative govt
Con
339
53.4
622
(3 LD)
43.9 (+8.1)
M. Thatcher

Majority = 44
Lab
268
+S
42.4
623
(22 LD)
36.9 (-2.3)
J. Callaghan
M. Foot

Turnout = 72.0%
Lib
11
1.7
577
(303 LD)
13.8 (-4.5)
D. Steel

Cabinet members
Others
16
2.5
754
(673 LD)
5.4 (-1.3)



Total
635

2576
(1001 LD)

Manifestos



Thu 9th June 1983
Party
Seats - %
Candidates
% Vote
Party leaders

Conservative govt
Con
397
61.1
633
(5 LD)
42.4 (-1.5)
M. Thatcher

Majority = 143
Lab
209
32.2
633
(119 LD)
27.6 (-9.3)
M. Foot
N. Kinnock

Turnout = 72.7%
All.
23
3.5
633
(10 LD)
25.4 (+11.6)
Owen/Steel

Cabinet members
Others
21
3.2
580
(570 LD)
4.6 (-0.7)



Total
650

2579
(704 LD)

Manifestos



Thu 11th June 1987
Party
Seats - %
Candidates
% Vote
Party leaders

Conservative govt
Con
375
+S
57.9
633
(0 LD)
42.2 (-0.2)
M. Thatcher
J. Major

Majority = 100
Lab
229
35.2
633
(0 LD)
30.8 (+3.2)
N. Kinnock

Turnout = 75.3%
All.
22
3.4
633
(1 LD)
22.6 (-2.8)
D. Steel
P. Ashdown

Cabinet members
Others
23
3.5
427
(307 LD)
4.3 (-0.3)



Total
650

2326
(308 LD)

Manifestos



Thu 9th April 1992
Party
Seats - %
Candidates
% Vote
Party leaders

Conservative govt
Con
336
51.6
645
(3 LD)
41.9 (-1.5)
J. Major

Majority = 22§
Lab
271
41.6
634
(1 LD)
34.4 (+3.6)
Neil Kinnock
John Smith
Margaret Beckett
Tony Blair

Turnout = 77.7%
LibDem
20
3.1
632
(11 LD)
17.8 (-4.8)
P. Ashdown

Cabinet members
Others
24
3.7
1040
(888 LD)
5.8 (+1.5)



Total
651

2949
(903 LD)

Manifestos



Thu 1st May 1997
Party
Seats - %
Candidates
% Vote
Party leaders

Labour govt
Lab
418
+S
63.6
639
-
43.2 (+8.8)
Tony Blair

Majority = 178
Con
165
25.0
640
(1 LD)
30.7 (-11.2)
John Major
William Hague

Turnout = 71.3%
LibDem
46
7.0
639
(13 LD)
16.8 (-1.0)
P.Ashdown

Cabinet members
Others
29
4.4
1806
(1555 LD)
9.3 (+3.5)



Total
659

3724
(1569 LD)

Manifestos



Thu 7th June 2001
Party
Seats - %
Candidates
% Vote
Party leaders

Labour govt
Lab
412
+S
62.5
640
-
40.7 (-3.7)
Tony Blair

Majority = 166
Con
166
25.2
643
(5 LD)
31.7 (+0.3)
William Hague
I. Duncan Smith
Michael Howard

Turnout = 59.4%
LibDem
52
7.9
639
(1 LD)
18.3 (+1.1)
Charles Kennedy

Cabinet members
Others
28
4.2
1396
(1171 LD)
9.3 (+2.3)



Total
659

3318
(1177 LD)

Manifestos



Thu 5th May 2005
Party
Seats - %
Candidates
% Vote
Party leaders

Labour govt
Lab
355
+S
55.0
627
-
35.2 (-5.4)
Tony Blair

Majority = 65
Con
198
30.5
630
(5 LD)
32.3 (+0.6)
Michael Howard
David Cameron

Turnout = 61.4%
LibDem
62
9.6
626
(1 LD)
22.0 (+3.8)
Charles Kennedy
Menzies Campbell

Cabinet members
Others
30
4.2
1667
(1379 LD)
10.5 (+1.2)



Total
645

3550
(1385 LD)

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to seeksfemslave)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: So what do YOU believe in? - 5/4/2007 3:20:47 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life,\.......


Even for the conceived, developing human unborn farglebargle?


Sure.

A fetus' CREATOR is their Mother.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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Profile   Post #: 30
RE: So what do YOU believe in? - 5/4/2007 3:26:17 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		Most people don't.  You can tell that they don't when they say things like "the left-wing media."  Maybe 98% of the media in this country are owned by mega-corporations, and they don't lean left, right, or in any direction whatsoever.  They lean toward the money.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Does nobody understand that corporate culture is self-interested?

(in reply to kittinSol)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: So what do YOU believe in? - 5/4/2007 3:33:38 PM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		Labour got elected in 1945  with a working majority and implemented the foundations of the Welfare State. A wonderful ideal gone badly wrong IMO.

Most subsequent Labour victories, until Blair that is, were scrape throughs, I'm speaking from memory now, or if not the economy was so weak that the room for manouver was severely limited. We all know what happened after 1979 when Boadecia (sp?) was re incarnated in the shape of Mrs T.

During those years , 1979 onwards, the Labour party was changed fundamentally; a fact which finally produced 10 years of workable govnt and unfortunately disastrous errors.

Dont get mad at me NG just because the Brit public wont support your Guardianista idealism. lol

I just noticed you included the BNP in your assessment NG. I've told you before I'm not doctrinaire and more of a leftie than you appear to believe.

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 5/4/2007 3:36:55 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 32
RE: So what do YOU believe in? - 5/4/2007 3:43:07 PM   
FatDomDaddy


Posts: 3183
Joined: 1/31/2004
Status: offline 		Talk about a hijack!! lol

What were those stats again N'Gent?

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Profile   Post #: 33
RE: So what do YOU believe in? - 5/4/2007 3:59:40 PM   
Griswold


Posts: 2739
Joined: 2/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

"Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone." (J. M. Keynes)
 



This is a misunderstanding of "everyone" on the part of Keynes.

Capitalism is economic selection.  It's damn good for the economy and humanity as a whole.  Some people say "humanity as a whole" as "everyone".  In this meaning, "everyone" doesn't mean every individual person- it means the collective of all individual persons.

Capitalism is determental to the economically inviable or uncompetative.


Indeed.  In fact, 10 years ago 1.2 billion people lived on a dollar or less a day...10 years later, with 700 million more people in the world, there are only 980 million people living on a dollar or less a day.

Granted, a dollar a day ain't much, but for those no longer living on said dollar...it's a bonanza.

A global economy isn't flawless, and it has plenty of fits and starts...but world poverty is being affected for the better.

(in reply to CuriousLord)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: So what do YOU believe in? - 5/4/2007 4:02:02 PM   
Griswold


Posts: 2739
Joined: 2/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

This is a misunderstanding of "everyone" on the part of Keynes.

Capitalism is economic selection.  It's damn good for the economy and humanity as a whole.  Some people say "humanity as a whole" as "everyone".  In this meaning, "everyone" doesn't mean every individual person- it means the collective of all individual persons.

Capitalism is determental to the economically inviable or uncompetative.


Wrong. Capitalism has a human face in the west because ordinary people organized and refused to be exploited. What we now have in the west is capitalism tempered with socialism. If you want to know what 'real capitalism' is like, read Dickens or Zola or better still, take a sabatical in a far east sweat shop where you don't know if you will still have your two hands at the end of the week. Keynes knew exactly what he was saying.


Dickens or Zola would maintain my point.  If sweatshops are economically viable, they'll progress and continue.  If they're not, they won't.

I didn't say capitalism was pretty nor kind.  I said it was benificial to the collective society.

If you care to argue this, I'd ask you make your case clearly instead of just saying, "Wrong."

And, yes, we don't have a perfect capitalism- at least, not in the elementary sense.  Ours is kinder to most without a major sacarfice.
Most things find perfection in balance.


Your spelling sucks, but your logic is inarguable.

(in reply to CuriousLord)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: So what do YOU believe in? - 5/4/2007 4:12:42 PM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		Your spelling sucks, but your logic is inarguable. so says Griswold.

Be careful Mr Gris. Remember glass houses and stones ?
The word is unarguable. I hope lol

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Profile   Post #: 36
RE: So what do YOU believe in? - 5/4/2007 4:17:23 PM   
cjenny


Posts: 1736
Joined: 11/27/2006
Status: offline 		Tis indeed un, not in.

Oh, btw.. sheeeeesh NG that was the most obnoxious thingie to scroll thru! My poor lil finger got tired out from the down arrow lol.

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Profile   Post #: 37
RE: So what do YOU believe in? - 5/4/2007 4:20:19 PM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Labour got elected in 1945  with a working majority and implemented the foundations of the Welfare State. A wonderful ideal gone badly wrong IMO.

Most subsequent Labour victories, until Blair that is, were scrape throughs, I'm speaking from memory now, or if not the economy was so weak that the room for manouver was severely limited. We all know what happened after 1979 when Boadecia (sp?) was re incarnated in the shape of Mrs T.

During those years , 1979 onwards, the Labour party was changed fundamentally; a fact which finally produced 10 years of workable govnt and unfortunately disastrous errors.

Dont get mad at me NG just because the Brit public wont support your Guardianista idealism. lol

I just noticed you included the BNP in your assessment NG. I've told you before I'm not doctrinaire and more of a leftie than you appear to believe.


What does this have to do with:

a) My liking for the old Labour Party.
b) Your statement that the party is unelectable.
c) My fact that the Labour Party has won more elections than the rest of the opposition put together since 1945.
d) It is a fact that since 1945, The Labour Party has been the most electable party in Britain.


_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to seeksfemslave)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: So what do YOU believe in? - 5/4/2007 4:22:28 PM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Absolutely! *nodding head with undisguised enthusiasm*

It's only when one's truly indoctrinated that one denies it wholeheartedly. So I guess the bastards haven't got to you yet



Still chippin' away kittin. I haven't watched the tele in months, possibly years - so that helps.

You know what we need here, it's time to trim the herd :-)



_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to kittinSol)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: So what do YOU believe in? - 5/4/2007 4:37:48 PM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cjenny

Tis indeed un, not in.

Oh, btw.. sheeeeesh NG that was the most obnoxious thingie to scroll thru! My poor lil finger got tired out from the down arrow lol.


I think NG's mistress had just released him from bondage and his fingers were still numb when he posted that little lot !

By the way NG it was a Labour politician who characterised one of Kinnock's manifestos as the longest suicide note in history.

Kinnock and spit in your face Hattersley. what a team.!!
Hattersley was a nice man but spoke odd and flecks of you know what could emerge on occasions. Getting really parochial now lol

(in reply to cjenny)
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