NorthernGent
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ORIGINAL: CuriousLord
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ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
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ORIGINAL: CuriousLord
Capitalism is economic selection. It's damn good for the economy and humanity as a whole. Some people say "humanity as a whole" as "everyone". In this meaning, "everyone" doesn't mean every individual person- it means the collective of all individual persons.
Capitalism is determental to the economically inviable or uncompetative.
I'm not convinced. What measures are you using for "damn good for humanity"?
I'd argue that it motivates society. In order to make it, people go through incredible lengths to be productive. Our technology grows by leaps and bounds for this, causing the life expectancy to sky rocket. Argiculture is advanced now, allowing us to support this massive population we have on our hands. People are able to travel across the world and see things that wouldn't have been possible.
I'll disagree, Curious. We're motivated by development as a species and this is achieved through knowledge sharing. There is far more to knowledge than money, posessions and materialism. Throughout recent history people have strived for free will and self-possession - you can see that through groups who assign themselves to BDSM, spirituality, certain political allegiances, adherence to faiths such as Christianity, Islam, Buddhism - which for many are a means of feeding the soul as opposed to feeding the bank account.
I would say society is not defined by capitalism, it simply exists within society along side other forces, and many people opt out of capitalist society. Also, it is far more prominent in Western society - in other parts of the world, enlightenment and growth is not defined by possessions.
Referring to my original point and your following point, capitalism does not motivate society. The human spirit motivates society and this spirit is defined by far more than the chase for possessions.
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ORIGINAL: CuriousLord
We must be honest with ourselves in that we are, at the core, selfish creatures. While many of us may grow to evolve past this in an individual life, it is typically after suffering hardship that we can appreach it.
It's fair to say I have form for pointing out the contrasting ideas held by Europeans and Americans. In my book, the above is at the heart of the difference in our repsective ways of thinking. The "selfish creature" point of view is held in high esteem by many on this board.
Outside of the US, this is not a universally accepted notion by any stretch of the imagination. As an example of the different slant, in Europe, notions of freedom and liberty have always been wrapped up in mutual co-operation and aid. What many on this board consider to be liberty, I would consider to be individualism (rather than liberty). In Europe, libertarianism was always associated with the left - the original use of libertarianism was applied to European Anarcho-Marxists. Similarly, when we think of anarchy here, it is very much a left-leaning notion wrapped up in cooperation. In the US, a different slant is attached to these ideas.
The point to the above is this: notions of liberty and freedom are just that - notions. Your opinion that "humans at our core are selfish creatures" is not a statement of fact and certainly not something "we have to accept", as you put it. In fact, this notion holds far more sway in the US than it does Europe.
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ORIGINAL: CuriousLord
Doctors. Oh, man, they have horrid jobs. Wading through the blood of strangers on a constant basis, under huge work loads, long shifts in odd hours, watching people get sicker and die, after having spent huge amounts of time studying mundane things. We have a shortage of doctors world wide, despite the incredible pay they get. How many doctors do you think we'll have if they weren't generously compensated?
The incredible pay?
Doctors are rewarded far less than lawyers, accountants, sports men/women etc etc - and they are dealing with life.
I would argue the opposite holds true. People who work in the public sector are largely driven by a desire to promote the concept of society and mutual co-operation, despite more money being available in other professions. This is evidence that people are driven by more than simply money, capitalism, possessions etc.
I would argue there is a certain amount of attitude adjustment. In order to promote corporate culture, we are being adjusted towards thinking humans are inherently selfish and do not care about others. The truth is though, we all have something we care about outside of our own sphere of existence and the four walls of our homes. Some people care about the elderly, some people care about dogs, others care about the environment, others care for the local community, others care for whales being harpooned and seals being bludgeoned, others care about the group e.g. the BDSM group, the vast majority seek out friends. In other words, we do care about people, animals, the environment - we do feel responsible for the environment in which we operate. It is natural human emotion to show sympathy and empathise with others. I'm yet to meet a person who wants to exist independently from the group - put it this way, there is no such person on this board/group.
I would argue that the notion we are selfish creatures is attitude adjustment by those who have a vested interest in creating a climate of a survival of the fittest culture i.e. the establishment.
Edited for spelling
< Message edited by NorthernGent -- 5/5/2007 5:43:38 AM >
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