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RE: So what do YOU believe in? - 5/6/2007 2:05:20 PM   
NorthernGent


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Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline 		German leaders have been looking towards opening up the labour market for a while now. Schroeder spoke of the third way, Merkel is taking the idea forward. The french public have voted, the majority want market reform. I don't buy the idea that the German and French public will somehow be able to rein in their governments where the British public failed.

Bear in mind, Scotland is Labour or Independent, Wales is Labour or Independent, the North of England is Labour - only the South of England actually believes in Blair's conservatives policies and the British opposition (i.e. the majority) have been unable to make their voices count. France and Germany are heading down the same road as Britain.

Gloablisation, MC - it has so much momentum that it's going to take a very determined group to stem the tide, and that includes in France and Germany.

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Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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RE: So what do YOU believe in? - 5/6/2007 2:42:49 PM   
meatcleaver


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Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		There is no doubt that Germany and France both need some reform and it is widely recognized in both countries that it is needed but both start from a different position that Britain which has always been far more capitalistic than both countries. Merkel is not in a strong position because Germany is federal and has an element of proportional representation so she will never have the out and out power of a British Prime Minister or a French President. She is also in power by a whisker so unless she can conslidate her power in the next election her power is limited. Sarkozy has the power and is hated by the left as much as he is loved by the right so if he is going to face down the left there are going to be some interesting times in France. The reason Germany and France still need some reform is precisely because so far their public have reined in the power of their governments. As to whether they can always do that is another thing altogether. Blair has managed his conservative policies because he purged the Labour party of independent and leftwing thinkers and had the backing of much of the media. Both France and Germany have a more pluralistic Parliaments and media.

I do think that globalisation is unstoppable but it doesn't have to be the globalisation of rightwing thinkers and this is where my frustration with the left comes in, instead of most of them complaining about globalisation, they should be creating a leftwing vision of globalisation and organizing across national borders. This is a fight rather like the fight of the 19th and early 20th century which took place within national borders.

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RE: So what do YOU believe in? - 5/6/2007 9:22:27 PM   
caitlyn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
Does the US buy military hardware from anyone? No. Or not anything significant because it is seen as a compromise of national security so why shouldn't other countries take the same view?


The most numerous aircraft in the inventory of both the United States Navy and United States Marine Corps, is the T-45A Goshawk, which is made by British Aerospace.
 
The most numerous combat aircraft used by the United States Marine Corps, is the Harrier Jump Jet, manufactured in Great Britain.
 
Just about all American recon and security forces use the Heckler-Koch 9mm sub-machine gun, manufactured in Germany.
 
The United States' military buys billions of dollars in electronic equipment from all over the world.
 
So ... there you have it ... ten minutes of research and I found a training aircraft (in huge numbers), a combat aircraft (used by our most elite fighting forces), a firearm, and support equipment. We certainly don't buy fighters or bombers, tanks or ships, but I don't think anyone is currently making anything on par with what we are producing.
 
So ... you are basically using faulty data to make a point that is equally faulty.

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RE: So what do YOU believe in? - 5/6/2007 9:57:01 PM   
juliaoceania


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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

"Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone." (J. M. Keynes)
 
Replace the oh-so-last-century 'capitalism' with the modern day 'corporations' and you're on to something. I'm scared. And I can't find anything else than cookery books and slimming guides at Barnes & Noble.

*help?* meeeowwww


I believe those that control the minds of the masses control the world. I believe that we live in a matrix like world in which advertising, media, and Mega corporations all seek to engineer society in their best interests... public relations in advertising, research into what motivates us, our fears, all make us lambs before the slaughter. We are manipulated by corporations every day of our lives (I include myself in that even though I am at least aware of the fact), and most people are so resistant to the idea that anyone could control them that they reject such ideas out of hand... making them even easier to control.

I live in a world filled with people that spend most of their free time in front of a television which communicates values, subtly plays to their fears, and tells them what feelings and ideas are important.

I believe the above is no accident.

So where does that leave capitalism, those that control the means of production, distribution, and fiat capital have their interests? Whenever their interests conflict with the unwashed masses, well they use all the means at their disposal to use the new opium (mass media and public relations) to make us believe that it is in our best interests.

They use rational choice theory against us by using Helegian Idealism. Basically they know if they can control what we perceive as reality, then they can convince us to behave like rational actors on the stage they have created... knowing that we think that we are getting what is in our best interests, even though we are being screwed.

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 5/6/2007 9:58:39 PM >

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RE: So what do YOU believe in? - 5/7/2007 12:57:29 AM   
seeksfemslave


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quote:

caitlyn
The most numerous combat aircraft used by the United States Marine Corps, is the Harrier Jump Jet, manufactured in Great Britain.


Just a correction of this "fact" . The VTOL Jump Jet used by the US marines is built under licence in the US.We manufacture our own VTOLs.
I wish we manufactured more and more of everything you could think of from drawing pins to jumbo jets. I dont "go" for this post industrial economy baloney !
I think the US buys or again manufactures under licence lots of big powerful  Rolls Royce turbo jet Engines.

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RE: So what do YOU believe in? - 5/7/2007 1:12:50 AM   
seeksfemslave


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Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		I should have thought there is so much advertising, in the US in particular, that the effect is counter productive. unless the purveyors are aiming for a subliminal response.

This "slagging off" of capitalism is getting a bit too much.
Think of all the corporations that employ research engineers, directly and at universities, technicians both in labs and on the shop floor, unskilled assembly workers paid ludicrous wages for admittely hard monotonous work. All the admin side of things. Not to mention the value and convenience of the products. Aircraft, ocean liners, automobiles pharmaceuticals TVs Computors etc etc.
Then we have the small business man plumbers, builders electricians etc etc many make good living NO?

Hair shirted  star gazers should remember how pleasant your life has become living in  approximate free enterprise societies.

Just thought I'd add this: since Keynes was a bit of a dilletante he most definately would not have said "most wickedest" OK.
Also I believe his contribution was to recognise that governments could help in smoothing out the business cycle. As far as I know he did not want to replace free enterprise.
Any "saucer" know otherwise ?

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 5/7/2007 1:18:07 AM >

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RE: So what do YOU believe in? - 5/7/2007 1:43:46 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

quote:

caitlyn
The most numerous combat aircraft used by the United States Marine Corps, is the Harrier Jump Jet, manufactured in Great Britain.


Just a correction of this "fact" . The VTOL Jump Jet used by the US marines is built under licence in the US.We manufacture our own VTOLs.
I wish we manufactured more and more of everything you could think of from drawing pins to jumbo jets. I dont "go" for this post industrial economy baloney !
I think the US buys or again manufactures under licence lots of big powerful  Rolls Royce turbo jet Engines.



The US refused to buy British built aircraft which is why it is built in the US under licence. There fore we don't get to keep the technology but transfer it. The US got a bargain at anyones price. I wonder how much US technology has been transfered to Britain and that is the key the French make.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 5/7/2007 1:45:28 AM >

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RE: So what do YOU believe in? - 5/7/2007 2:06:01 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

There is no doubt that Germany and France both need some reform and it is widely recognized in both countries that it is needed but both start from a different position that Britain which has always been far more capitalistic than both countries.
 


I'm not so sure capitalism defines the nature of Britain versus Germany/France. Personally, I think liberalism is the defining factor. Britain has a history of liberalism that swamps both countries, and an open economic system is one of several pillars of liberalism - hence the appearance of a more capitalist approach. Germany has a history of authoritarianism (first democracy in 1921ish), whereas the first revolution in Europe aimed at representation was in 17th century Britain (and you can trace British liberalism beyond the 1600s). For me, this is where we really have a different outlook to the Germans - rightly or wrongly, they like order and stability which has led them down the road of authoritarianism and strict economic controls, whereas, as a nation, we have a history of free trade and liberalism. I don't think the issue is that we value capitalism more than the Germans - look at West Germany for 30 years, they were extremely proficient in taking advantage of capitalism - the issue is we, as a nation, value liberalism. You only have to look at our political parties - the liberal democrats, the conservatives (who are actually liberals and not conservatives in the Adam Smith sense of conservatism) and the current Labour government who are liberals to all intents and purposes. Look back to the 1880s and German industry was beginning to outperform British industry - it took the Germans longer to get their act together because of their love of authoritarianism and effectively been told what to do from the top of the hierarchy, but as soon as they discovered capitalism, they were as proficient as anyone.

In terms of France, well, where do you begin. I doubt the French even understand France. If ever a country has an idiosyncratic nature it's France - even French socialism is underpinned by conservatism.

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Merkel is not in a strong position because Germany is federal and has an element of proportional representation so she will never have the out and out power of a British Prime Minister or a French President. She is also in power by a whisker so unless she can conslidate her power in the next election her power is limited.



I'll hold my hands up to not knowing a great deal about Merkel's position, but I'm fairly sure she is driving this latest leg of the push for a more cooperative European Union. She wants the integration of Britain/Germany/France, and she's having a good go at it - talk over here is that she's trying to push it through the back door, and this is from pro-EU newspapers.

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Sarkozy has the power and is hated by the left as much as he is loved by the right so if he is going to face down the left there are going to be some interesting times in France. The reason Germany and France still need some reform is precisely because so far their public have reined in the power of their governments. As to whether they can always do that is another thing altogether. Blair has managed his conservative policies because he purged the Labour party of independent and leftwing thinkers and had the backing of much of the media. Both France and Germany have a more pluralistic Parliaments and media.



I don't understand why the right would love Sarkozy, I'm sure they do, but don't they realise that he's not good for the right or the left? It's like Thatcher and Blair - the right didn't get conservatism, they got a liberal economic system by the boat load. If the French right think they're in for a golden period of conservatism, they're about to get a shock. They're in for a period of neo-liberalism. The other point is: nations are increasingly like moths to a lightbulb - all being magnetised by the same idea, and this isn't good for anyone - left or right. Where will it end, a world dominated by the idea of business first?

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

I do think that globalisation is unstoppable but it doesn't have to be the globalisation of rightwing thinkers and this is where my frustration with the left comes in, instead of most of them complaining about globalisation, they should be creating a leftwing vision of globalisation and organizing across national borders. This is a fight rather like the fight of the 19th and early 20th century which took place within national borders.



MC, I think the left have been here with a global vision - Socialism. The problem with the left is it is too wide a spectrum to be unified, and thus the right will always gain from its lack of unity. The left is bound by democracy and equal opportunity, but then the left breaks off into all sorts of methods to achieve this. I think the left - in all countries - need a kick up the arse and realise that their differences are minor comapred with the differences each has with neo-liberalism. If Socialists, anarchists, environmentalists, green party, skilled workers etc want to do something about neo-liberalism, then they'll need to build a movement defined by their common goals of democracy, equal opportunity, internationalism and social responsibility. Otherwise, they're just pissing in the wind.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 88
RE: So what do YOU believe in? - 5/7/2007 2:23:33 AM   
meatcleaver


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Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		Good points. One point I would like to make about German efficiency though, the Germans invest more in their industry and German workers have much better conditions than their British counterparts and have representation on the boards of their industries so feel some ownership in the industries in which they work. They also plan for the long term where Britain has never planned for the long term and tend to see profits today as the point of commerce. In the 70s when Conservatives were comparing the performance of the British car industry to the German car industry they always forgot (conveniently) that German factories were more modern and that the Germans regularly had new products. There was a period when British Leyland didn'nt have a new product for eleven years! This was because the British were more concerned with finance than products so it isn't just a case of Germans liking stability to British liberalism but a case of vision. British politics has on the whole (since the war) been more confrontational than German politics. Having worked in Germany, it is a holiday camp compared to working in Britain, not because the workers of one country work harder than workers of the other but because one has better conditions, better equipement to work with and a feeling that one is appreciated. On top of that, in my experience, the pay was almost double that of what I was doing in Britain. Whether that is still the case I don't know. Maybe globalisation is now eroding that.

EDIT  I've just read this in the Guardian

Germany is as interesting in its success as France is in its lack of it. This is a worthwhile comparison because it gets away from the stale "Anglo-Saxon" v "European social model" debate. Germany has held down wages for six years. Real wages have barely risen at all, pushing the share of workers' pay as a proportion of national income to its lowest for four decades, which is surprising for a country with a strong social model. Germany has regained international competitiveness - hence the success of its exporters. Those in work are reaping the benefits of years of belt-tightening and unemployment is falling rapidly, though from a high level.
 
http://www.guardian.co.uk/france/story/0,,2074121,00.html

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 5/7/2007 2:28:23 AM >

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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Profile   Post #: 89
RE: So what do YOU believe in? - 5/7/2007 2:32:50 AM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

"Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone." (J. M. Keynes)
 
Replace the oh-so-last-century 'capitalism' with the modern day 'corporations' and you're on to something. I'm scared. And I can't find anything else than cookery books and slimming guides at Barnes & Noble.

*help?* meeeowwww


I believe those that control the minds of the masses control the world. I believe that we live in a matrix like world in which advertising, media, and Mega corporations all seek to engineer society in their best interests... public relations in advertising, research into what motivates us, our fears, all make us lambs before the slaughter. We are manipulated by corporations every day of our lives (I include myself in that even though I am at least aware of the fact), and most people are so resistant to the idea that anyone could control them that they reject such ideas out of hand... making them even easier to control.

I live in a world filled with people that spend most of their free time in front of a television which communicates values, subtly plays to their fears, and tells them what feelings and ideas are important.

I believe the above is no accident.

So where does that leave capitalism, those that control the means of production, distribution, and fiat capital have their interests? Whenever their interests conflict with the unwashed masses, well they use all the means at their disposal to use the new opium (mass media and public relations) to make us believe that it is in our best interests.

They use rational choice theory against us by using Helegian Idealism. Basically they know if they can control what we perceive as reality, then they can convince us to behave like rational actors on the stage they have created... knowing that we think that we are getting what is in our best interests, even though we are being screwed.


Spot on.

The only possible solution to this is that the left are going to have to forget their minor differences. Otherwise, Socialists will argue with Anarchists, environmentalists/greens will argue with liberals who believe in genuine democracy (i.e. equal opportunity, mass participation etc). Meanwhile, neo-liberalism will dominate because sections of the left are too stubborn to realise that a few minor concessions with other areas of the left are more than worth a crack at changing the political landscape and the domination of this landscape by neo-liberalism.

The left has a history of this sort of thing. When the Nazis were elected, they weren't the majority party. The problem was, the communists, socialists, social democrats etc all stood against each other, while the right was united. The left gained more votes than the right, yet the right were elected (allbeit in dubious circumstances).

In Britain today, people believe in equal opportunity, democracy and social responsibility, yet can't unite behind one banner. At the last general election, we had 5 different strands of Socialism opposing each other in some seats, then there were independents running, then there were Labour candidates along the old tradition, then there were greens/environmentalists, liberal democrats etc - all with the same underlying goal i.e. genuine democracy dethroning neo-liberalism. If they stood together, they would be the majority party, but they're too busy arguing over the tools to achieve their common mission.

In this country, it is a small minority of people who back the policies of invading other countries for economic gain and imposing a value system. All opinion polls suggest this. Yet, it's happening because the opposition aren't united. On the positive side, we have been here before with the British Labour party. The factions who joined together to make their collective voice heard, argued with each other for decades until they realised they couldn't achieve their collective mission unless they were united. Once united, they held government within 50 years, and have been the most successful political party in Britain since WW2.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 90
RE: So what do YOU believe in? - 5/7/2007 3:14:04 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

One point I would like to make about German efficiency though, the Germans invest more in their industry and German workers have much better conditions than their British counterparts and have representation on the boards of their industries so feel some ownership in the industries in which they work. They also plan for the long term where Britain has never planned for the long term and tend to see profits today as the point of commerce.



There's no doubt that Britain suffered from two world wars, bankruptcy and a lack of investment - how was British industry ever going to compete in these circumstances? I wouldn't agree with the notion of not planning for the long term. I would argue that the British government understood that service and hi-tech industries were capable of generating value and wealth creation on a scale that the old manufacturing industries couldn't match. Hence, the economy was geared towards increasingly moving away from heavy industry - the aim was to kill off heavy industry, not invest in it.

I visited a friend in Stuttgart around 1996, and her uncle was working for Kodak - on the factory floor - and he was earning around three times that of a British equivalent. That's the British way, laissez faire economics. Having said this, I don't think it's right to say the British government does not have a long term vision, they always have been first class administrators and statesmen/women (when you consider the restrictions) - I simply don't agree with them on what constitutes a fair share of the pie.

I would say the Germans and British both have a long term vision. The difference is, as you point out, the Germans believe the best way to generate prosperity and well-being is to reinvest a large propotion of their wealth creation in the grass roots of society - something I happen to agree with. The British government believes in laissez fair economics i.e. leaving everyone to themselves in the belief that this will drive entrepreunerialism and a fair distribution of wealth.


quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

EDIT  I've just read this in the Guardian

Germany is as interesting in its success as France is in its lack of it. This is a worthwhile comparison because it gets away from the stale "Anglo-Saxon" v "European social model" debate. Germany has held down wages for six years. Real wages have barely risen at all, pushing the share of workers' pay as a proportion of national income to its lowest for four decades, which is surprising for a country with a strong social model. Germany has regained international competitiveness - hence the success of its exporters. Those in work are reaping the benefits of years of belt-tightening and unemployment is falling rapidly, though from a high level.
 
http://www.guardian.co.uk/france/story/0,,2074121,00.html


Fair play to the Germans considering they've had to absorb East Germany. They have the drive and large population to make things happen. I'll be watching Germany with interest to see how far they are prepared to take market democracy. They're certainly going down that road, when the German Finance Minister planned to raise Corporation Tax, German firms threatened to move production abroad - corporations over-ruling the peoples' elected representative. When he resigned, his parting shot was the heart is not traded on the stock exchange yet. It's an indication of what is happening in Germany.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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RE: So what do YOU believe in? - 5/7/2007 3:27:52 AM   
seeksfemslave


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Status: offline 		To those who believe Liberalism is a defining factor in UK history I can only refer them to the response to Chartist agitation in the 1840's or thereabouts. Petitions demanding universal suffrage were ignored and the ringleaders were imprisoned or deported.
Even Oliver Cromwell didnt like the idea of the masses having any influence. But he did kick the Monarchy out so I forgive him, pimple on his nose and all !

Dont forget MC that when British Leyland failed abysmally it was state run. NO ?
A great example for the benefits of Socialism that is !

Two facts: Kodak is a privately owned American firm and the manufacture of a modern automobile is a hi tech endeavor.
Another fact: George Eastman founder of Kodak donated hundreds of millions of dollars to charities and universities in particular Massachusets Institute of Technology. Likewise with Andrew Carnegie.

Another a point: when that venture capitalist wanted to buy off the sports car section of MG and develop the product with private money the champagne socialists said NO and invested lots of public money, Four directors skimmed off lots, the firm went broke. Now the Chinese own the lot and will probably make zillions.
Clever Socialists !

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 5/7/2007 3:45:34 AM >

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RE: So what do YOU believe in? - 5/7/2007 3:43:01 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

To those who believe Liberalism is a defining factor in UK history I can only refer them to the response to Chartist agitation in the 1840's or thereabouts. Petitions demanding universal suffrage were ignored and the ringleaders were imprisoned or deported.
Even Oliver Cromwell didnt like the idea of the masses having any influence. But he did kick the Monarchy out so I forgive him, pimple on his nose and all !



The very fact that people were campaigning for universal sufferage and expanding representation as early as the 1600s is an indication of the sense of liberal thinking among the population. As said, Germany didn't experience democracy until something like 1921 - they had always been ruled by an authoritarian system.

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

the manufacture of a modern automobile is a hi tech endeavor.



I can tell you from first hand experience that the profit margins in heavy industry - for example, British Aerospace - are dwarfed by the profit margins in service industries. Deals with the Saudis have propped up British Aerospace for years - overinflated profits in return for a few backhanders. As a good example, the Lancashire economy is dominated by two huge Aerospace plants and has the 32nd highest Gross Value Added stats of 37 counties. Lancashire has high rates of employment and the plants are deemed to be efficient - the problem is, the mark up rates are low compared with service  and light industries.

The British government were aware of this as early as the 1970s and shaped the economy accordingly. British Aerospace will soon cease to be an aircraft manufacturer - their mission is geared around moving towards systems and radar equipment - why? because heavy industry doesn't generate wealth creation on the scale of light and service industries.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to seeksfemslave)
Profile   Post #: 93
RE: So what do YOU believe in? - 5/7/2007 3:46:26 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

To those who believe Liberalism is a defining factor in UK history I can only refer them to the response to Chartist agitation in the 1840's or thereabouts. Petitions demanding universal suffrage were ignored and the ringleaders were imprisoned or deported.


The fight for workers rights was one of the best things to come out of Britain.

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Even Oliver Cromwell didnt like the idea of the masses having any influence. But he did kick the Monarchy out so I forgive him, pimple on his nose and all !


Cromwell was a man of his times and somewhat paternalistic and inevitably had a limited vision if compared with to day but there is no doubt he was a man that believed in human dignity despite Irish nationalists blaming him for things he never did.

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Dont forget MC that when British Leyland failed abysmally it was state run. NO ?
A great example for the benefits of Socialism that is !


You have to ask your self why the car industry was nationalised, it was nationalised because private ownership failed. Morris, the chairman of Morris Motors used to boast about how little he invested in the industry. The main reason Leyland failed was not the worker unrest but the lack of vision (no new models) of the management and cutting vital components of the industry until the industry was too small to compete with the likes of Volkswagena and Renault (which was in a bad a state as Leyland in the 70s and also a nationalised industry) by the time the management realised they needed new models. There was a TV documentary series that outlined the decline of British industry called "All Our Working Lives'. The one consistant thing the series threw up was the incompetence and lack of vision of British management, it was lamentable when compared to the Germans and even the French.

_____________________________

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RE: So what do YOU believe in? - 5/7/2007 4:01:26 AM   
seeksfemslave


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Status: offline 		There may well have been Brits who were advocating universal suffrage in the 17th century, which come to think of it is probably not true any way since property was deemed to be the deciding factor to permit  a vote, but just as important it was other Brits that made sure that they didnt get it.

So why characterise a nation simply by choosing  as representative those who advocate  what you hold to be true ?
If you catch my drift ?

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RE: So what do YOU believe in? - 5/7/2007 4:16:28 AM   
seeksfemslave


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quote:

NG
I can tell you from first hand experience that the profit margins in heavy industry - for example, British Aerospace - are dwarfed by the profit margins in service industries. Deals with the Saudis have propped up British Aerospace for years - overinflated profits in return for a few backhanders. As a good example, the Lancashire economy is dominated by two huge Aerospace plants and has the 32nd highest Gross Value Added stats of 37 counties. Lancashire has high rates of employment and the plants are deemed to be efficient - the problem is, the mark up rates are low compared with service  and light industries.


This from the Socialists Socialist. lol
I thought profit was a dirty word however it is generated.  Alienates the masses or something like that

The do gooders right at this moment are trying to have the backhanders Brit Aerospace to Saudi exposed. Positive outcome there should lose quite a few jobs.
BA employs thousands, lets kill it and rely on Service and Sofware. First is low tech low payed and the second employs dozens.Another big step forward there.

With regard toUK poor management in private industry that IMO is due to the inherent snobbery and class bias of an illiberal society. Had the Technicians and Engineers had some say  I am as sure as can be that things would have improved
Except for maybe electronics. We dont seem to be much use at that. I'm talking manufacture not innovation


< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 5/7/2007 4:17:24 AM >

(in reply to seeksfemslave)
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RE: So what do YOU believe in? - 5/7/2007 4:22:02 AM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

There may well have been Brits who were advocating universal suffrage in the 17th century, which come to think of it is probably not true any way since property was deemed to be the deciding factor to permit  a vote, but just as important it was other Brits that made sure that they didnt get it.

So why characterise a nation simply by choosing  as representative those who advocate  what you hold to be true ?
If you catch my drift ?


Yeah I get your drift.

If you run through a timeline of British history - e.g. Magna Carta, the Model Parliament (first representative parliament), Peasant's Revolt (14th century) Revolution, Bill of Rights, Trade Unions and workers guilds, universal suffrage etc. This all hints at a progressive liberal trend - in contrast to Germany's rule under authoritarianism to 1921.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say, Seeks. Are you saying Britain and Germany have a similar history in terms of liberalism and authoritarianism (in relation to my original point), or are you saying something else?

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RE: So what do YOU believe in? - 5/7/2007 4:31:59 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

There may well have been Brits who were advocating universal suffrage in the 17th century, which come to think of it is probably not true any way since property was deemed to be the deciding factor to permit  a vote, but just as important it was other Brits that made sure that they didnt get it.



The Ranters, the Levellers, the Quakers, female soldiers, how many groups and advocates do you want seeks? Even Cromwell was aware of these ideas but thought they were ideals that couldn't become real. Many of the ideas in the American and French revolutions were English in origin and about a hundred years old to boot. Tom Paine was an Englishman! Though that was the 18th century of course.

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RE: So what do YOU believe in? - 5/7/2007 4:41:47 AM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

quote:

NG
I can tell you from first hand experience that the profit margins in heavy industry - for example, British Aerospace - are dwarfed by the profit margins in service industries. Deals with the Saudis have propped up British Aerospace for years - overinflated profits in return for a few backhanders. As a good example, the Lancashire economy is dominated by two huge Aerospace plants and has the 32nd highest Gross Value Added stats of 37 counties. Lancashire has high rates of employment and the plants are deemed to be efficient - the problem is, the mark up rates are low compared with service  and light industries.


This from the Socialists Socialist. lol
I thought profit was a dirty word however it is generated.  Alienates the masses or something like that

The do gooders right at this moment are trying to have the backhanders Brit Aerospace to Saudi exposed. Positive outcome there should lose quite a few jobs.
BA employs thousands, lets kill it and rely on Service and Sofware. First is low tech low payed and the second employs dozens.Another big step forward there.

With regard toUK poor management in private industry that IMO is due to the inherent snobbery and class bias of an illiberal society. Had the Technicians and Engineers had some say  I am as sure as can be that things would have improved
Except for maybe electronics. We dont seem to be much use at that. I'm talking manufacture not innovation



Seeks, are you interested in a discussion, or simply trying to paralyse it with "do gooders" and "socialists socialist" type meaningless comments? Also, no one is trying to kill British Aerospace - their mission is to move towards Aerosystems, radar and the support of military aircraft - at the expense of manufacturing military and civil aircraft.

The original point was this: the British government have held a long term plan for a long time which includes moving away from heavy industry to the higher value creation sectors of light and service industries. Rightly or wrongly, this is the way it is. If you disagree, then post why it isn't correct rather than one of your endless, bottomless pit of rants about Socialism.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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Profile   Post #: 99
RE: So what do YOU believe in? - 5/7/2007 5:39:57 AM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		I thought it should have been perfectly clear that I was engaging in debate and pointing out the fundamental untruth in your assertion that the UK has a liberal history. You said it I think its wrong.

MC: I concede that agitators existed but they didnt get very far and met oppression and imprisonment. NO?

Magna Carta: designed to protect the aristocracy from the Monarchy. Both could then exploit the masses.
Model Parliament: made up of aristocrats, clergy and, the change that was made, wealthy local landowners from around the country, all for what...to raise money for War, NO social legislation of any kind.

I believe Tom Paine was active mostly in France , until he became persona non we are going to chop your head off.

Even on todays news the Liberal Democrats have refused to consider a coalition with the Scottish Nationalist party because the SNP wants a referendum on Scottish independance.
Lets not let the masses have their say. TODAY 

In fact many liberal changes occured in the UK when the masters of of the time became aware of the economic growth that was occuring err err where err err hold on  think about it .....1 2 3 the USA. a place to which many had fled to escape the illiberalism and persecution of nearly all European countries. NO ?

An example would be a slight shift to technical education.

(in reply to NorthernGent)
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