RE: Masterhood

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daniL -> RE: Masterhood (5/7/2007 10:09:09 PM)
This is an easier dynamic to understand in the context that the slave has few obligations outside of the relationship [i still don't feel comfortable with it, but i'd rather work on the questions that i can get answered rather than rehashing the cycle of arguments from earlier...I can intellectually understand your point, CuriousLord] I would worry about the dynamic in terms of relating to the children. Obligations to different family members-- husband/wife-esque roles as well as the children-- can very often conflict. This can especially occur with parents that were raised differently, or have differing parental styles. Perhaps the dynamic would not extend in such an extreme way to the children? The idea here is that allows for a more balanced discussion on how to raise the children-- because even if the slave raises the children the way the Master wants, children can normally pick up on the rifts that an unresolved clash btwn the parents.

CuriousLord -> RE: Masterhood (5/7/2007 10:18:34 PM)
Hum.. I'm not exactly sure what you're asking about, so I would appreciate a restatement. Things I feel may be relevant, that I hope help.. I do not feel any unresolved clashes between her and I, as we're quite a happy couple. Also, I'm not a sadist- at all. The most physical pain or abuse I put her through is rough sex- that which, to be blunt, she isn't exactly upset about. So our children won't have to worry about, "Why does Daddy beat Mommy?"

WhiplashSmile -> RE: Masterhood (5/7/2007 10:18:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CuriousLord quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael This thread reminds me of a chatroom with the smell of imitation testosterone wafting through the air and prerecorded chest thumping booming out from cheep stereos. My favorite thing to do in this situation is to walk up to the offender in question, unzip my pants and relieve myself on his leg. So this thread gives you the urge to piss yourself? Please, take it to the corner of the chatroom. CuriousLord.. Ummmm... I hate to point this out... SimplyMichael could have been speaking about you, Domiguy, me or other people on this thread as a whole. If it was his intention to express this in a manner as an allied force on your side, I think you just fucked up. I really hate to point something out like this, but it was very quick for you to take offense to SimplyMichaels posting. There is some chest thumbing going on here in this thread and some of it is indeed mindless.

WhiplashSmile -> RE: Masterhood (5/7/2007 10:29:08 PM)
The M/s dynamics when children are involved. At times when childrens needs and wants will come between the wants and needs of the M/s relationship itself. This is one area that can be a real challenge when dealing with. In terms of coming to a mutal agreement and understanding regarding the raising of children. Again "human beings" that did not agree to enter into a M/s relationship, however are effected by the M/s relationship itself. It's one thing to have an effective childless M/s relationship another thing to have M/s with children involved. Even more so when if a Master takes a slave that already have children. There are outside family forces that can come into play as well. Grandparents, Aunts and Uncles. In the case of a slave with children the outside chance that the childrens natural father has visitation and certain rights with the kids as well. To what end or level is M/s done and how does it effect the kids. Very interesting area to move into in terms of M/s concept relationship models.

CuriousLord -> RE: Masterhood (5/7/2007 10:31:11 PM)
Oh, I agree it could seem to go either way. quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael, Formation of dominants and submissives First off, if you have to chest thump or proclaim how pure your whatever is, we have a gorean forum for that. As a favor, if you choose to post in this thread, try your best to be open and genuine as well as a bit vulnerable. With that said... He just begins a thread of his own with the above, and this thread is rather Gorean in sentiment. This, plus I thought the idea of him peeing himself was somehow suiting of the character of the fellow as I perceive him to be.

WhiplashSmile -> RE: Masterhood (5/7/2007 11:07:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CuriousLord Oh, I agree it could seem to go either way. quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael, Formation of dominants and submissives First off, if you have to chest thump or proclaim how pure your whatever is, we have a gorean forum for that. As a favor, if you choose to post in this thread, try your best to be open and genuine as well as a bit vulnerable. With that said... He just begins a thread of his own with the above, and this thread is rather Gorean in sentiment. This, plus I thought the idea of him peeing himself was somehow suiting of the character of the fellow as I perceive him to be. I totally understand your point about this thread being Gorean in sentiment. It is obvious that there are many solid Gorean M/s relationships that work. Not all M/s relationships carry a Gorean sentiment, however many slaves in non Gorean M/s relationships have slowly surrended more power over to a Dom.. Funny how some D/s relationships evol into deeper M/s relationships. The cross over line or point appears to a bit of a blur.. What's a difference between a slave and a submissive, and many people have different opinions. Then again opinions are like assholes everybody has one. At least you are taking some time to get feedback and thoughts on what a M/s means for you as a Master. Being a Master is a lot like being a AD&D Dungeon Master. It's your fantasy, your rules and if you find other people that want to play the game with you as the Dungeon Master.. more power to you. You'll find what rules work or do not work best with the players you have and you still get to be in control of the game. How you view yourself as a Master will be different from others views as well. Hell you are 20 years old and by the time you reach 40 your views and thoughts on life itself will change. Life itself is a very dynamic beast. Pissing matches and chest thumping is a common occurance in life. While I might not agree with somebody elses views, I will try to challenge opposing views with questions, what if's and debates. One Master may view themselves as a best master ever, they may have a slave that looks up and admires the ground they walk upon. Yet there will be slaves that don't view this master in the same light. It all boils down to two people having similar beliefs. Hell, there are some slaves that don't want affection or love, it is a hard limit. There are slaves that desire affection and love without any sadism involved. What works great for one M/s relationship would be the ruin for other M/s relationships. In terms of being a Domly Master type, it's OK to beat your chest and proclaim this is what I want and expect out of a M/s relationship. The more you can figure out what you want or expect and can clearly present it, the chances of you finding a slave increase. It's a lot better then simply stating I want a slave and leaving it at that. Prospective slaves want to know what the fuck they are getting themselves into before hand. I think it's wise for any Master to know the same when looking for a sub/slave type. The best advice I can give you, is to do a lot of thinking about M/s dynamics, present your ideas and thoughts with others. Think about it some more, test some things out in.. experience and live it. Revise it, update.. continue process. What works with one slave well might not with another. Whew... There are no set hardcore guidelines in stone save what you want there to be. You need to find or have a slave with a willing mindset that believes in the same things as you yourself do. After all there are Gorean Slave Girls out there that adopted the same views as so many Gorean Masters.

CuriousLord -> RE: Masterhood (5/7/2007 11:25:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WhiplashSmile The best advice I can give you, is to do a lot of thinking about M/s dynamics, present your ideas and thoughts with others. Think about it some more, test some things out in.. experience and live it. Revise it, update.. continue process. What works with one slave well might not with another. Whew... There are no set hardcore guidelines in stone save what you want there to be. You need to find or have a slave with a willing mindset that believes in the same things as you yourself do. After all there are Gorean Slave Girls out there that adopted the same views as so many Gorean Masters. Yup, no worries, I'm pretty much set in the BDSM aspect of my life. I like to think about this subject, but the basis is pretty sound. These boards have become more of a place to share and understand others than anything else, along with, of course, venting! It's good to see your views on it. I'm glad that there's not the "surrender to human nature, we're flawed, screw your romanticism". Ah wells. I'll be able to continue this tommorow. I have my Chemical Engineering exam tommorow at 8 in the morning, and it's 2:25 AM right now. Well, today, I suppose. Anyhow, I haven't really studied or slept yet, so this'll be a bit of a cram night. I hope your evening goes well.

WhiplashSmile -> RE: Masterhood (5/8/2007 12:22:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MasterMischief I do not think any one person's definition is going to fit everyone. Damn the world for not being black and white! [8D] I think this sums up the reason for chest thumping and pissing matches on the thread.

WhiplashSmile -> RE: Masterhood (5/8/2007 12:46:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kalbar Well time away from such a strict regime is something that I consider to be invaluable. I know from past experience that the kind of TPE I expect can be very demanding and that time to just be with friends is something that many slaves would need. Having said that, perhaps I shouldn't have given the impression that bratty behaviour is tolerable. Perhaps I should have said that time can be given where a slave can just have fun with other women and let her hair down a tad. I would never condone a slave of mine going out to the pub and transforming into a rude and obnoxious bitch for instance. Oh Hell, there are plenty of M/s and D/s relationships that take these "breaks" or "timeouts" for a multitude of reasons. Even more so in TPE where one or both parties needs a little "Nilla out time" to recharge or whatever. Hell some D/s M/s dyanamics get put on hold in instances where there's been a death in the family or other major life changing events occurs. There are simply times when neither the Master/Dom or submissive are of the right mind set to effectively carry out thier roles effectively. At times people need a bit of a mini break from the relationship itself. At times people simply need space and time to deal with things to get back into the right head space, breaks also to insure they keep in the right head space.

WhiplashSmile -> RE: Masterhood (5/8/2007 1:59:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael This thread reminds me of a chatroom with the smell of imitation testosterone wafting through the air and prerecorded chest thumping booming out from cheep stereos. My favorite thing to do in this situation is to walk up to the offender in question, unzip my pants and relieve myself on his leg. Am I alone in this desire? Now this gives me creepy flashbacks of the boys locker room in high school.. right down to the cheap stereos. I can honestly say I'm devoid of any watersports fantasies that are litereally connected with a guys leg. Perhaps I'm not man enough, or a big enough Dog to want to do this. After all many women/girls call guys dogs, any dude pissing on another dudes leg is really a dogmatic thing to do. I'll get excerise a little self control, keep my pants zipped up and relieve myself elsewhere. I just know "I am not with you in sharing your desire!"..... Any guy pissing on my leg too would be creepy and strange. I think I'd have to make a 911 call and defer the whole situation over to the experts that deal with mental evaluations. By the way, I myself hate using prerecorded chest thumbs and take great pleasure doing the real thing. Damn it, I blame it all on watching too many Tarzan shows in my childhood. If you think you smell imitation testosterone coming from my body, it's actually a combination of Right Guard Deorderant and Curve Cologne, this probally smells a lot better compared to actual testosterone. Perhaps real men don't shower for weeks, don't use Deorderent or Cologne. I wonder how many women are really attracted by the true caveman scent these day? MMMmmmm... think I'll stick to the imitation scents.

MadRabbit -> RE: Masterhood (5/8/2007 4:17:57 AM)
quote: I am not a boy; I am a man. Such a pretention would be insulting, though I'm going to chauk it up to lack of forethought. I'm glad we're on the topic of honesty.. there's something that's.. rather insulting to others, generally, to say, but I feel it's vital to understanding things I have to say.. Have you ever met one of those people in special classs at school in your youth? Not really able to get things, they're typically proud of their ability to add single-digit numbers, still spelling four-letter words in middle-school, getting down how to use quotes in highschool? The difference between their IQ and a normal person's IQ is a little less than half the difference between mine and a normal person's, or about the same as mine and a gifted person's. I respect how you think, and that's why I feel more comfort saying this to you, despite the flames I'm just about certain will ensue. Your honesty regarding your arrogant superiority complex is appreciated, but not needed. I've been aware of it since the beginning of this thread when you took the attitude that you are absolutety right and there isnt the possibility of you being wrong. The truth is your thinking is what is in fact flawed. quote: It's just important to understand because, have you ever tried explaining something to a person like that? How things work, how to do average-level thinking for that age group? It's.. just about impossible, really.. so frustrating! This is less than the barrer I experience trying to explain things to people. I've yet to express my true beliefs on this forum. I'm finding a nearly 50% incidence rate of misunderstandings on the things I consider to be trivial. It's.. it's so frustrating. I imagine its as frustrating as me trying to explain to someone how "X + Y always equals Z" logic doesnt apply to human beings when they dont have the depth of perspective or the wisdom from life experience to understand it. quote: This said.. my "theories" are constructs- not actually theories, proper. Being constructs, they are implicity true models. I'm rather frustrated to see the incidence at which this is not understood. Models are effective over domains. In this specific cause, it is a pseudo domain encompasing instances of which the only intelligent objects are humans within the dynamic or accepting of it. You can make a perfect construct and model that theorizes human behavior. It can be solid and logically sound. But when you actually try and apply it to real life, the results are going to be different then the results in your model. Lets say I was opening a restaurant that was only serving dinner for lunch. I wanted to make a model that planned how long it would take for the cooks to get the restaurant open and ready for lunch. I can calculate how much time it would take to prepare each item. I can take all the calculations and present a time table that is solid and seemingly perfect and where the end results always equate to my cooks having the restaurant open for lunch. But yet amazingly...in reality...the restaurant is never ever ready for lunch by the time we open. One cook spent his whole night downing shots of tequilla and overslept. Another cook spent time on his cellphone as opposed to working. The delivery truck driver didnt have enough coffee and was slow in unloading so we didnt have the ingredients quick enough to make all the products. Models and constructs are pointless, to a degree, when it comes to human behavior...because the "Human Factor" will always throw a mechanic in the results produced by the model. If you think that all relationships that follow your model are going to have this end result... quote: ne thing that I'm still considering, though, is the obligation of relationship. In this dynamic, both Master and slave accept the premise: slave obeys Master, Master accepts full responsibility and credit. In my relationship, and those of similar nature which I've observed, slaves have been incredibly loyal, never disobeying (except in minor instances of misunderstanding, which I do not find blameworthy) nor rebelious. Masters have had no trouble guiding a slave to the degree which they desire. This is to say, I've found these relationships to be without strain nor drama. I'm curious if most following this dynamic are so blessed? with the kind of certainity your claiming, then you are a fool. I beleive you have a girl who gives you blowjobs that you call a slave. But your lack of understanding of how there is so many factors involved that cause strain or drama in all relationships regardless of the perfect model they are based on shows to me, that you lack the experience of having a committed long term relationship that involves people living together. Your failure to grasp what experienced people are telling you and that real life relationships go wrong for the weirdest and most illogical of reasons and that the end results you are describing here take a lot of work, effort and time to develop the kind of bond you speak of and are rarely ever without strain drama is a testament to your own lack of experience. How your own lack of emotional self control can cause constant damage to the growth of the relationship and the bond. How your own lack of discipline can destroy your own authority dynamic. How the irrational of human beings and their psyches causes things like passive agressive behavior, acting out, subtle disobedience, and resistance that causes strain and drama that no relationship is free of. How it takes a lot of work and time to develop this level of bond with such incredible loyalty, unquestioning disobedience and no resistance to ones will. How it takes a degree of self awareness to improve your own faults and irrational behaviors that can be destructive to the bond of trust that is slowly growing with the goal of total obedience....faults like arrogance and a god complex and lack of humilitiy... I can go on and on.... quote: Please understand that I am at an utter loss as to which part of this concept is not sinking in for other people. It is entirely accurate.. I can both justify it logically and demonstrate it, as I am living this dynamic. I beleive you are actually living the dynamic as opposed to just explaining some construct on the Internet that you created in your head one night about as much as I beleive you have four total years of experience as a Master that began when you were 16 or are in fact a chemical enginner when your still taking the chemical enginner exam. quote: It is not sane to deny the possibility of something logical and demonstratable. It is foolish to think that a model based on X + Y = Z logic bares any resmeblence to the results in real life with the certainity you are claiming. You will understand this more when as you grow up. I imagine a lot of this will go over your head because you dont have the experience and wisdom to understand the full scope of what slave ownership entails. The best of luck with your lust for omnipotence. Spend more time with people and not with computers.

jaunty1 -> RE: Masterhood (5/8/2007 5:49:06 AM)
I read through this entire thread and decided to start at the very beginning with my comments. *You said that you believe ‘a Master is one who owns a slave(s);* “ I will agree with you here “who is solely responsible for the actions of his property as long as the slave(s) acts within his own guidelines and orders; “ I disagree with you here in the respect that if my slave goes against my orders; or does something that I did not authorize, her actions are still my responsibility. I failed to properly guide her; whether her disobedience is due to just a bad mood; or something more important; I failed her in this respect. As her owner, I must take responsibility for her obedience AND her disobedience; I must accept responsibility over ANY actions that ensue at any time. It’s a reflection on my ability to Master her. “and that everything a slave does is due to the responsibility and credit of the owner” Again, I agree with you here. However, this statement alone contradicts what you stated above, that a Master is solely responsible for the actions of his property AS LONG AS the slave(s) acts within his own guidelines and orders. Moving on to your next posting: #3 You responded to LA with** “is the slave, then responsible for her being able to cook an awesome apple pie? If she is property, then this falls to the Master” I agree yet disagree. As her owner, I did not teach her how to bake that apple pie. Yet, when she makes it for ME, it is cooked properly simply because she desires to please me. I can not take credit for her cooking skills; I can only take credit for her CONTINUED cooking skills. In post #6, you stated that “I do not believe a slave gives a Master control over her; I believe she becomes his and control over her is simply a given. It’s not hers to give” Using the context of my own relationship; I will agree with this. You also stated here that “if a Master causes his slave to go to jail, that it is his fault. Society is just jailing the slave despite the fault being the Master” My question here would be as her Master, and as one who believes that ALL responsibility should fall to you; why have YOU NOT stepped forward and in the eyes of the law and society taken the blame and responsibility for he actions? Example; my girl robs a bank because I tell her to. She gets arrested. As her Master, it is my duty to step forward and say ‘she did not do this; I forced her to. I should be the one behind bars, and she should be absolved of all blame. Yet, from what you have said in this post; this is not how you would do things; even though you state quite firmly that YOU are responsible. And yes, this was a question. Post # 28 You responded to LA with “they are the Master’s responsibility to see to their care. Now of course, he can say you are to care for them or something like this and this is a guideline and her responsibility to him. But she would care for them as a responsibility to him, not as a responsibility to the children or state” So basically, what you are inferring here is that a slave cares for her own children not out of love, or a sense of right and wrong; but simply because she has been ordered to? I am assuming that you do not have children of your own? If you did, you would recognize the fallacy of what you have said here. Post # 42 You said ‘the Master just about always takes responsibility as the slave is living under his rule. He is not responsible when the slave deviates from her rule” I disagree with this here again. As an owner, if a slave goes against what I have ordered; I have FAILED her. It is my responsibility because I failed to recognize the issues that caused this. Post #49 You said ‘a slave is personally accountable to her Master because she is his servant. The dynamic emphasizes that she is not accountable to anyone or anything else but him” I would agree with this. In post #55, you said ‘she is my property; I am responsible for her’ In accepting responsibility for her, you must also accept responsibility for when she is disobedient and does wrong. I have failed to see you yet mention this. If she fails as a slave because of disobedience; the fault falls on the owner for failing to address the issues that caused such. The owner must take responsibility in this case. In post # 73 you stated ‘this is a more extreme M/s sort of relationship, though that is not to say it’s better” I disagree. What you have presented here is a plausible, workable relationship that is severely flawed in one area. Your lack of total and complete responsibility when your slave fails. In post # 111 you said “a slave does not serve the guests of a dinner party; she has done nothing for them. Her actions were at the command of her Master and she did them for the sole purpose of filling such commands. She does not desire credit for the meal from others outside of the compliment of having served her Master well” I agree with this. Yet, what happens if the meal was not a good one? Is it your slave’s fault? Or yours? In addition to this is the aspect of WHY the meal was bad. What were the reasons for it? Do you take responsibility here? Or do you instead place the blame on your slave? In post #168 you said “now if my slave were rude to a Gorean Master, it would be me he addressed” You are very correct here; however, you forgot one important factor. If , as a Gorean, your slave was rude to a Master/Mistress/Free, she would also be punished by the person whom she was rude towards. I admit that your idea of this dynamic can be accomplished, yet I am going to go with the crowd here and state that from what you have said here, it is flawed. I will repeat what I said I earlier. It is flawed because if your property acts outside of orders; it is still YOUR responsibility. You have failed to Master her in that respect. Live well Alex

darkinshadows -> RE: Masterhood (5/8/2007 5:54:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WhiplashSmile The M/s dynamics when children are involved. At times when childrens needs and wants will come between the wants and needs of the M/s relationship itself. This is one area that can be a real challenge when dealing with. In terms of coming to a mutal agreement and understanding regarding the raising of children. Again "human beings" that did not agree to enter into a M/s relationship, however are effected by the M/s relationship itself. It's one thing to have an effective childless M/s relationship another thing to have M/s with children involved. Even more so when if a Master takes a slave that already have children. There are outside family forces that can come into play as well. Grandparents, Aunts and Uncles. In the case of a slave with children the outside chance that the childrens natural father has visitation and certain rights with the kids as well. To what end or level is M/s done and how does it effect the kids. Very interesting area to move into in terms of M/s concept relationship models. Really do not see this as a point. No one enters any relationship (Sanely anyway, but of course there are always exceptions of neediness and/or abuse) - regardless as to whether it is a D/s or Ms or vanilla relationship without taking family into consideration and dealing with said children and families. You just would not submit to someone who did not have the same core values as yourself or core values that you wish to follow. I have two children and if I didnt think Darcy was a positive influence in their life, or could manage their development in a healthy way with education on both a mental and emotional level, as well as maintaining their health - I would never have been in a relationship with him. Humans aren't even asked to be born, "let alone not agree to enter into a M/s relationship, however are effected by the M/s relationship itself. " That is such a moot point. When a person is born, that do not have a choice as to whether they are working class or middle class, or christian or athiest or Jew - whether their parents are disabled or mentaly impaired. Or if their father is a doctor or a steelworker single parent or gay - black or asian - Everything effects lives... thats is called growth and learning. And eventually when they become adults, they choose their own path. The mind boggles using this as an example. It makes no sense and is not in any way an issue. Peace

velvetears -> RE: Masterhood (5/8/2007 6:12:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MadRabbit I imagine its as frustrating as me trying to explain to someone how "X + Y always equals Z" logic doesnt apply to human beings when they dont have the depth of perspective or the wisdom from life experience to understand it..... Logic has its place but human beings grow, change, make mistakes, have accidents, get sick etc. Using logic to make a basis to understand a relationship from your own perspective of what you may want from it based on your own ideas and needs is one thing but to expect to be able to contrust one based soly on logic is forgetting thet life is unpredictable and can throw curve balls at you when you least expect it. i wonder what the OP would do if 5 years into the relationship the slave was struck by a car and suffered a paralysis and could not serve in the same capacity - would she be released becasue she stepped out of the construct he made for the relationship? You can make a perfect construct and model that theorizes human behavior. It can be solid and logically sound. But when you actually try and apply it to real life, the results are going to be different then the results in your model..... The only way a person comes to understand this is through trial and error... ie living life and having the years behind you to reflect upon said trial and error. Your restaurant example reminded me of the many vacations i spent with my family and as much as we planned every hour spent and every penny as well we'd come home 100's of dollars poorer then we thought we would be and during the trip so many unexpected things would happen that perhaps 1/2 to 3/4 of the things we wanted to do actually got done. The more people you throw into the equation the harder it gets...... try using logic with kids as a factor if you realy want a challenge ! LOL But your lack of understanding of how there is so many factors involved that cause strain or drama in all relationships regardless of the perfect model they are based on shows to me, that you lack the experience of having a committed long term relationship that involves people living together. How can he at 20? Your failure to grasp what experienced people are telling you and that real life relationships go wrong for the weirdest and most illogical of reasons and that the end results you are describing here take a lot of work, effort and time to develop the kind of bond you speak of and are rarely ever without strain drama is a testament to your own lack of experience. How your own lack of emotional self control can cause constant damage to the growth of the relationship and the bond. How your own lack of discipline can destroy your own authority dynamic. How the irrational of human beings and their psyches causes things like passive agressive behavior, acting out, subtle disobedience, and resistance that causes strain and drama that no relationship is free of. How it takes a lot of work and time to develop this level of bond with such incredible loyalty, unquestioning disobedience and no resistance to ones will. How it takes a degree of self awareness to improve your own faults and irrational behaviors that can be destructive to the bond of trust that is slowly growing with the goal of total obedience....faults like arrogance and a god complex and lack of humilitiy... I can go on and on.... You can only be aware of this i beleieve in retrospect, which means living years and being able to look back and make adjustments. i absolutely agree with you in what i bolded above from your post. ......I beleive you are actually living the dynamic as opposed to just explaining some construct on the Internet that you created in your head one night about as much as I beleive you have four total years of experience as a Master that began when you were 16 or are in fact a chemical enginner when your still taking the chemical enginner exam. Was wondering when someone was going to mention that - i had similar thoughts. It is foolish to think that a model based on X + Y = Z logic bares any resmeblence to the results in real life with the certainity you are claiming. Nothing is certain in life and you can't take anything for granted - life has it's own agenda many times. You will understand this more when as you grow up. I imagine a lot of this will go over your head because you dont have the experience and wisdom to understand the full scope of what slave ownership entails. The best of luck with your lust for omnipotence. Spend more time with people and not with computers. Idealism is necessary for young people to ever take upon themselves life's challenges. How many people would get married, for example if they were not idealistic about it - thinking love will conquer all and that they had all the answers and figured out everything. We tend not to think this way as we get older and approach things with more caution and wisdom. Young people have to have something to encourage them lol.

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Masterhood (5/8/2007 7:33:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: velvetears Idealism is necessary for young people to ever take upon themselves life's challenges. How many people would get married, for example if they were not idealistic about it - thinking love will conquer all and that they had all the answers and figured out everything. We tend not to think this way as we get older and approach things with more caution and wisdom. Young people have to have something to encourage them lol. I'd prefer it to be reality. Maybe then we'd have more marriages that actually were fulfilling and successful rather than all the heartbreak, broken families, and divorces we have now.

darkinshadows -> RE: Masterhood (5/8/2007 7:51:52 AM)
quote: But your lack of understanding of how there is so many factors involved that cause strain or drama in all relationships regardless of the perfect model they are based on shows to me, that you lack the experience of having a committed long term relationship that involves people living together. How can he at 20? You can still have experience even vicariously. Parents, friends etc - all exude experience that you learn from and about... even if 'at 20' (irony included[:'(]) you do not have any 'hands-on experience' - people still learn. And even 'at 50' some people have no experience at longterm relationships. The mind boggles at such a condecending statement based on age vs. experience still... And bugger my typos Peace

darkinshadows -> RE: Masterhood (5/8/2007 7:53:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross quote: ORIGINAL: velvetears Idealism is necessary for young people to ever take upon themselves life's challenges. How many people would get married, for example if they were not idealistic about it - thinking love will conquer all and that they had all the answers and figured out everything. We tend not to think this way as we get older and approach things with more caution and wisdom. Young people have to have something to encourage them lol. I'd prefer it to be reality. Maybe then we'd have more marriages that actually were fulfilling and successful rather than all the heartbreak, broken families, and divorces we have now. I agree Em, would definately choose realism over idealism anyday - always have - even when 'only20' [;)] Peace

velvetears -> RE: Masterhood (5/8/2007 8:05:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: darkinshadows ....The mind boggles at such a condecending statement based on age vs. experience still... And bugger my typos Peace You don't see the catch 22 here? How can you gain experience without aging? You can't gain the same level of experience vicariously - if you could then we could all potentially be tennis pros just from watching it on television.

darkinshadows -> RE: Masterhood (5/8/2007 8:12:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: velvetears quote: ORIGINAL: darkinshadows ....The mind boggles at such a condecending statement based on age vs. experience still... And bugger my typos Peace You don't see the catch 22 here? How can you gain experience without aging? You can't gain the same level of experience vicariously - if you could then we could all potentially be tennis pros just from watching it on television. I didn't say that experience isnt gained from age. What I did say was that age is not always a indication of experience. Two totally different things and people still throw age around like its a big thing when they are trying to make a point that someone may be out of their depth in their personal opinion.. It isn't. It is .very.very. small. in the great scheme of things. But as you said, some people (and it isn't always the younger generation) like to be able to fall back on idealism (like experience comes from age) - which of course is always subjective and personal - so it makes a person have hope and IMO feel more secure. But that security is always misplaced - like I said, I have always prefered realism. Peace and Rapture

velvetears -> RE: Masterhood (5/8/2007 8:50:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: darkinshadows I didn't say that experience isnt gained from age. What I did say was that age is not always a indication of experience. No i agree and i didn't imply it was. It is what people are exposed to or engage in that ultimately gives them experience. You can live 100 years and have no experience in something if you never enaged in that activity. But generally speaking the older one is the more opportunity one has to avail themselves of life's opportunities. The only way to understand that life's experiences will make your perspective change about things, that you actually think are absolutes, is to live it and see it actually happening.

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