RE: Masterhood

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WhiplashSmile -> RE: Masterhood (5/8/2007 9:04:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: darkinshadows quote: ORIGINAL: WhiplashSmile The M/s dynamics when children are involved. At times when childrens needs and wants will come between the wants and needs of the M/s relationship itself. This is one area that can be a real challenge when dealing with. In terms of coming to a mutal agreement and understanding regarding the raising of children. Again "human beings" that did not agree to enter into a M/s relationship, however are effected by the M/s relationship itself. It's one thing to have an effective childless M/s relationship another thing to have M/s with children involved. Even more so when if a Master takes a slave that already have children. There are outside family forces that can come into play as well. Grandparents, Aunts and Uncles. In the case of a slave with children the outside chance that the childrens natural father has visitation and certain rights with the kids as well. To what end or level is M/s done and how does it effect the kids. Very interesting area to move into in terms of M/s concept relationship models. Really do not see this as a point. No one enters any relationship (Sanely anyway, but of course there are always exceptions of neediness and/or abuse) - regardless as to whether it is a D/s or Ms or vanilla relationship without taking family into consideration and dealing with said children and families. You just would not submit to someone who did not have the same core values as yourself or core values that you wish to follow. I have two children and if I didnt think Darcy was a positive influence in their life, or could manage their development in a healthy way with education on both a mental and emotional level, as well as maintaining their health - I would never have been in a relationship with him. Humans aren't even asked to be born, "let alone not agree to enter into a M/s relationship, however are effected by the M/s relationship itself. " That is such a moot point. When a person is born, that do not have a choice as to whether they are working class or middle class, or christian or athiest or Jew - whether their parents are disabled or mentaly impaired. Or if their father is a doctor or a steelworker single parent or gay - black or asian - Everything effects lives... thats is called growth and learning. And eventually when they become adults, they choose their own path. The mind boggles using this as an example. It makes no sense and is not in any way an issue. Peace This is a Good question for the OP to consider or factor into his M/s concept relationship model he's presenting on the message board. Many of the points being challenged deal with the concept of a Master taking complete responsibility of all the slaves actions. One of the primary foundations many parents try to instill in children is responsibility for actions. Now, these children a growing up in a household where responsibility and accountability are handled how again? I think this fair game to ask about this, do you not?

CuriousLord -> RE: Masterhood (5/8/2007 9:10:29 AM)
You're basing your entire argument around that I'm delusion about my own relationship and that the dynamic just can't work for unstated reasons. I'm sorry, Rabbit, but you're becoming argumenative and losing touch with anything outside of that. As for the opinions of others, a fair number of venerable posters live this dynamic have offered support on the issue. You are going to mark them up, yet claim.. who is the experienced person knocking it?.. you?.. are more certain than them on something you haven't experienced..? Yeah, people make mistake. People disobey. It's a lot of work to maintain a relationship. At least, when you're like this when something works. I'm happy in my relationship. Frankly, you're a bastard for claiming it's something else based solely on your own hope that it is.

ModeratorEleven -> RE: Masterhood (5/8/2007 9:36:44 AM)
Ok folks, enough. Please chill. XI

darkinshadows -> RE: Masterhood (5/8/2007 10:01:30 AM)
quote: This is a Good question for the OP to consider or factor into his M/s concept relationship model he's presenting on the message board. Many of the points being challenged deal with the concept of a Master taking complete responsibility of all the slaves actions. One of the primary foundations many parents try to instill in children is responsibility for actions. Now, these children a growing up in a household where responsibility and accountability are handled how again? I think this fair game to ask about this, do you not? I do not see how it adds anything constructive to the discussion. Children are raised in different environments all over the world. Being in a family where the dynamic is MS related is no different to being in a dynamic where a child is raised in a Christian dynamic or a single parent one. They learn from the experience within the family, but that doesn't mean they will take that and use it within their life when they turn 18 or whatever age they leave home and start their own lives. If one comes from a family of atheists, does not mean they will become an athiest. They just grow and watch that set of ideas and take it into their own life. Some parents do not instil responsibility into their children. Some instil no responsibility - heck - some parents do not even show responsibility. Showing and raising a child to understand a dynamic, doesnt mean you are forcing it upon them, or make them accept it as their own dynamic - simply that life is diverse. By your statement, you are basically indicating that if a parent is gay, their child will undoubtedly become gay as well - because thats the way they are raised - which is of course bull as we are mostly all aware. I think you are taking CLs statement and just tearing it apart simply because it isn't your dynamic and using out of this world examples to try and deny his exists. It can exist, without all the examples of drama that yourself and a handful of others are trying to thrust into the discussion to confuse the issue, quite frankly. We do things in wiitwd every day that can be classed as illegal - so bringing in the law is a completely moot point - because people ignore that everyday in their specific and unique relationships. And how raising a family when in a MS relationship is no different to any other orientation, belief or dynamic. Peace

CuriousLord -> RE: Masterhood (5/8/2007 10:03:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jaunty1 I read through this entire thread and decided to start at the very beginning with my comments. *You said that you believe ‘a Master is one who owns a slave(s);* “ I will agree with you here “who is solely responsible for the actions of his property as long as the slave(s) acts within his own guidelines and orders; “ I disagree with you here in the respect that if my slave goes against my orders; or does something that I did not authorize, her actions are still my responsibility. I failed to properly guide her; whether her disobedience is due to just a bad mood; or something more important; I failed her in this respect. As her owner, I must take responsibility for her obedience AND her disobedience; I must accept responsibility over ANY actions that ensue at any time. It’s a reflection on my ability to Master her. “and that everything a slave does is due to the responsibility and credit of the owner”** Again, I agree with you here. However, this statement alone contradicts what you stated above, that a Master is solely responsible for the actions of his property AS LONG AS the slave(s) acts within his own guidelines and orders. I don't see the contradiction just yet. The Master is responsible for his slave so long as she follows his guidelines- this is to say, he's responsible for her, so long as she remains responsible to him. Still, if there is a contradiction, I'd appreciate it being pointed out. quote: ORIGINAL: jaunty1 Moving on to your next posting: #3 You responded to LA with “is the slave, then responsible for her being able to cook an awesome apple pie? If she is property, then this falls to the Master” I agree yet disagree. As her owner, I did not teach her how to bake that apple pie. Yet, when she makes it for ME, it is cooked properly simply because she desires to please me. I can not take credit for her cooking skills; I can only take credit for her CONTINUED cooking skills. This is one of those subjects that I just have to default to saying "this is a mechanism of the dynamic". For instance, in your life, and in your relationships, you may not take credit for it. Which is really just fine- I just do it differently. My reason for doing it this way is that, when I collar a slave, I assume liability for her assets and flaws. Sort of a catch-all. quote: ORIGINAL: jaunty1 You also stated here that “if a Master causes his slave to go to jail, that it is his fault. Society is just jailing the slave despite the fault being the Master” My question here would be as her Master, and as one who believes that ALL responsibility should fall to you; why have YOU NOT stepped forward and in the eyes of the law and society taken the blame and responsibility for he actions? This isn't saying I wouldn't step forward. (Hell, I'm not planning on getting any slave into jail in the first place.) This quote was basically in response to others arguing, "if her actions are your fault, then why is she the one going to jail?" I was answering with, "Because society doesn't reconize the dynamic and would hold her accountable for her actions, regardless of how fault is assigned within the dynamic". quote: ORIGINAL: jaunty1 Example; my girl robs a bank because I tell her to. She gets arrested. As her Master, it is my duty to step forward and say ‘she did not do this; I forced her to. I should be the one behind bars, and she should be absolved of all blame. While it's a noble sentiment, I'm afraid she'd still get stuck with the charges, though perhaps reduced if you can claim coercion, and you'd get stuck with the crime and/or conspiracy to commit it. Still, it's sort of a moot question. If a Master orders his slave to rob a bank, he's probably not the honorable type to be concerned for her well being and wouldn't stick his neck out for her. The type that would be concerned for her well being wouldn't order her to rob a bank in the first place. quote: ORIGINAL: jaunty1 Yet, from what you have said in this post; this is not how you would do things; even though you state quite firmly that YOU are responsible. And yes, this was a question. You mean I said that, if I got my slave thrown in jail, I wouldn't do anything to try to help her? I can't recall, honestly- it's a subject I try to avoid. Frankly, it makes me sad to consider what I would see as a betrayal of her trust so horribly. If I did say I wouldn't, if you could show me where, I'd like to take another look at it. quote: ORIGINAL: jaunty1 Post # 28 You responded to LA with “they are the Master’s responsibility to see to their care. Now of course, he can say you are to care for them or something like this and this is a guideline and her responsibility to him. But she would care for them as a responsibility to him, not as a responsibility to the children or state” So basically, what you are inferring here is that a slave cares for her own children not out of love, or a sense of right and wrong; but simply because she has been ordered to? I am assuming that you do not have children of your own? If you did, you would recognize the fallacy of what you have said here. Yup, the idea of children came up later. The dynamic I'm illistrating in this post would call for that. However, this same dynamic is only a portion of my current one, as I've posted in response to my new-found words to express it. As it's an incomplete version of mine, and mine doesn't even have children involved in it, I'm not going to begin to claim it would work on the emotional level. My point behind this part is that, in this dynamic, as illistrated, this is how that would work. It would, too, provided people agree to it. If a mother would agree to care for her own children out of submission to the father or not, though, is an entirely other story. quote: ORIGINAL: jaunty1 Post # 42 You said ‘the Master just about always takes responsibility as the slave is living under his rule. He is not responsible when the slave deviates from her rule” I disagree with this here again. As an owner, if a slave goes against what I have ordered; I have FAILED her. It is my responsibility because I failed to recognize the issues that caused this. This is another place I'd say your disagreement appears to be based more on the fact we subscribe to different dynamics- even if similar. In my view and way of working with it, she's obligated to only one thing: to serve me. Now, I've made provisions for if a slave fails in her duty due to inability or misunderstanding, which would fault to me. It is an interesting point, though, that you would feel as you have failed your slave. My view is based off the idea that the slave, at the time of collaring, was dishonset about her nature- that she would not always do as instructed, thus invalidating the basis of the dynamic. However, your argument seems to be supported by the fact that disobidience may spawn during a relationship.. something which, while it doens't quite make sense to me, is a good point to consider. Do you know in what ways a Master may unintentionally inspire disobidence in a formerly devout and loyal slave? It's something neat to consider. quote: ORIGINAL: jaunty1 In post #55, you said ‘she is my property; I am responsible for her’ In accepting responsibility for her, you must also accept responsibility for when she is disobedient and does wrong. I have failed to see you yet mention this. If she fails as a slave because of disobedience; the fault falls on the owner for failing to address the issues that caused such. The owner must take responsibility in this case. The argument's noble in sentiment- though I'm afraid even I find it a bit overly romantic. What if a slave has been an actress? Simply acting the part- well- and then commits a grand crime, blantantly disregarding your rules? Would you be responsible for this? It may seem like a case that's not worth considering, but a previous slave had done something much like this. Ironically enough, she was a drama major. While she was legitimately submissive, part of her was deviant in loyality- enough to disregard my rules and commit actions I considered to be atrocities. While I set about trying to right many of her grounds- or, rather, put an end to the continued damage they caused- I could not claim I was responsible for her. Also, this relationship was not so strongly in the M/s dynamic. While I considered her a slave, I said this because I "owned" her and controlled her, but her responsibilties were still her own. It's only after this relationship did I acknowledge the flaw in this system. quote: ORIGINAL: jaunty1 In post # 73 you stated ‘this is a more extreme M/s sort of relationship, though that is not to say it’s better” I disagree. What you have presented here is a plausible, workable relationship that is severely flawed in one area. Your lack of total and complete responsibility when your slave fails. I would argue that, if she was truly my slave, why would she fail me for the sake of disobidience? (Again, if she's failed due to inability or misunderstanding, that is my fault.) Just a note part way though.. I'm glad for how many responses you've given. This point, however, your idea of the Master being liable for blantant disobidience- it's an interesting idea and one I'd like to pursue in debate, if you're up for it. I don't know the answer. quote: ORIGINAL: jaunty1 In post # 111 you said “a slave does not serve the guests of a dinner party; she has done nothing for them. Her actions were at the command of her Master and she did them for the sole purpose of filling such commands. She does not desire credit for the meal from others outside of the compliment of having served her Master well” I agree with this. Yet, what happens if the meal was not a good one? Is it your slave’s fault? Or yours? In addition to this is the aspect of WHY the meal was bad. What were the reasons for it? Do you take responsibility here? Or do you instead place the blame on your slave? It would be my fault. The idea of fault versus achomplishment is one I'd like to point out as a view I have in a contineous spectrum.. this is to say, she's done her job, and it turning out well or poorly is a matter of detail. This detail, while it would effect how others might view my ability as a Master or/and simply effect the quality of th meal, does not reflect either well or poorly upon the slave. The detail that does reflect well on the slave is her obidience to orders and guidelines and her expressed desire in performing as well as she can. Something I'm hesitant to bring up as it maintains loose ends. quote: ORIGINAL: jaunty1 In post #168 you said “now if my slave were rude to a Gorean Master, it would be me he addressed” You are very correct here; however, you forgot one important factor. If , as a Gorean, your slave was rude to a Master/Mistress/Free, she would also be punished by the person whom she was rude towards. Yup, I'm meaning to study up on Gorean idealogy. I would think a Gorean would empathize enough with me to respect that it should be me he would approach about my slave's misconduct, though he would be respectful of my dynamic in understanding that my slave is mine to deal with. This is my hope, in any case. quote: ORIGINAL: jaunty1 I admit that your idea of this dynamic can be accomplished, yet I am going to go with the crowd here and state that from what you have said here, it is flawed. I will repeat what I said I earlier. It is flawed because if your property acts outside of orders; it is still YOUR responsibility. You have failed to Master her in that respect. This is one of the most ironic and intersting parts of your reply. Most of the others have faulted my dynamic for the levying of both credit and fault to the Master in most cases, yet you would fault it in not levying the entirety of credit and fault to the Master. I'd happily debate this with you, if you're up for it. It was my sincerest of hopes to receive such contributions in the orignial post. While some posters have made contributions to the content of the thread, and others have made good points, this is the first thing I feel I could benifit from. To begin, should you be willing, I'll take the standpoint that a Master should not be responsible for instances of blantant disobidience. (As a debate, I'm receptive to your ideas and arguments, this is my stance as I seem to lean more towards it than you do, and I believe you're more comfortable arguing that a Master should take full responsibilty, even in the case of disobidience.) I would like to argue the basis, to begin with, before the practical effects and consquences. 1.)I feel there are two hypothetical sources of factors contributing to disobidience: those present at the time of collaring and those acquired since. 2.)I would argue that a pure slave, assuming she was without such factors at the time of collaring, would not gain disobidient factors under the thoughtful guidance of a Master. 3.)I would continue that, should one who has been guided by a thoughtful Master, she must have either been deceptive at the time of collaring as to the issue of her stance towards obidience or that the collar was offered prematurely and/or erronously. 4.)I would sum these up in that, should Master have conducted due process in consideration before collaring and acted thoughtfully since, it is most likely disobidient elements of a slave's personality existed at the time of collaring and were misrepresented by the slave. 5.)I would continue that a collaring made under the influence of willful deception is invalid. 6.)I would conclude that, at the time at which a collaring is known to be invalid, the collar itself may be invalidiated. (I've numbered the points so that they may be more specifically and easily picked up and referred to, such as (1) referring to the first argument.) (I'm entirely open for any sensible and reasonable person accepting the premises of both the dynamic, general; and logical debate to join in.)

CuriousLord -> RE: Masterhood (5/8/2007 10:14:26 AM)
Ah, yes, sort of a PS- I basically cut out and didn't reply to the parts were you were basically just expressing agreement. This isn't because I was unappreciative, but, well, the reply I posted to you was more than just a tad length as-is. :P On the same note, I didn't point out things you said that I agreed with. More or less to save room, since I'm finding the point I'd like to debate of interest. This said, I want to point out that I absolutely, nearly fanatically, enjoy debate on subjects of which I have either partial, incomplete, or no understanding. While it is, in some senses, an argument, I'd like to empathesize that I feel quite warmly on the subject and enter these with a postive view and constructive intention. I believe it's truly a great thing when such a feeling is mutual and points can be discussed freely and seriously. In any case, if I haven't said it yet, thanks for taking the time to read over the thread and compile such an extensive reply.

BeingChewsie -> RE: Masterhood (5/8/2007 10:16:53 AM)
I'm sitting here wondering where does any of this "Master orders slave to do all kinds of heinous pyromanic kleptomaniac thieving stuff" actually occur? I live a very sheltered life out here in Southern California. quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael This thread reminds me of a chatroom with the smell of imitation testosterone wafting through the air and prerecorded chest thumping booming out from cheep stereos. My favorite thing to do in this situation is to walk up to the offender in question, unzip my pants and relieve myself on his leg. Am I alone in this desire?

CuriousLord -> RE: Masterhood (5/8/2007 10:32:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: velvetears Idealism is necessary for young people to ever take upon themselves life's challenges. How many people would get married, for example if they were not idealistic about it - thinking love will conquer all and that they had all the answers and figured out everything. We tend not to think this way as we get older and approach things with more caution and wisdom. Young people have to have something to encourage them lol. Not idealism. Passion, fury, and even rage. This is how I approach anything I care for. I'm going to avoid responding to the other, more snarky takes on this idea, as, well, the moderator's aptly called it'd get out of hand. But I would like to empathesize idealism isn't what people are seeing. As I've already argued in this thread, I do not believe in free will. I do not believe people are more than complex reactions. I do not believe in God or an afterlife. I'm well aware that long-term love is often more commitment and mutual cooperation than it is a feeling or urge. This said, the dynamic highlighted in the post is part of the one I live; I know it's real. One may be able to argue that I'm just fooling myself, that she's really just in love and that's why she's so submissive, that it would fall apart once her feelings fade. I acknowledge the elements supporting my currect relationship may be transitory. While putting this out there, I will also put out there that this does not mean it's any less real or perfect in effect- it just may not last. A possible reality I'm prepared to accept. However, I carry no regrets. This love- this closeness- is like none I've ever had before. It is, by a leap and a bound, and improvement over pervious "M/s" relationships I've had, in which I only commanded the girls yet did not take responsiblity for them. I have come to this after such relationships. I realized the conflict in interests for one to be controlled by another yet still suffer both the good and ill consquences of such a control. I realize that, for the most part, it works just fine- but not perfectly. This is better. This is making me happy. And, as I'm pointing out, it's real, regardless of whether or not extraordinary factors may be supporting it. For those posters who have come to express their support and convayed the fact that they live, happily, well, and long, in similar dynamics, I have found hope that this may continue. It would be unrealistic to presume it would either last a lifetime or end at some point prior right now. My family and kin have a history of successful, happy first marriages. I feel I am well aware of the dynamics of a happy family, having lived in one for two decades while surrounded by others, and hope to be able to apply such dynamics with BDSM-esque aspects. Passion to pursure something, fury to fight for it, and even rage at times when trying to search for the truth admist confusion, but not idealism.

CuriousLord -> RE: Masterhood (5/8/2007 10:36:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BeingChewsie I'm sitting here wondering where does any of this "Master orders slave to do all kinds of heinous pyromanic kleptomaniac thieving stuff" actually occur? I live a very sheltered life out here in Southern California. quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael This thread reminds me of a chatroom with the smell of imitation testosterone wafting through the air and prerecorded chest thumping booming out from cheep stereos. My favorite thing to do in this situation is to walk up to the offender in question, unzip my pants and relieve myself on his leg. Am I alone in this desire? I'm not sure how your thoughts were stimulated by Micheal's insecurity, though, to answer your confusion, most of it's come up in arguments concerning hypothetical cases in which a Master's obligation to take responsibility for the actions of his slave are being debated and clarified. As far as I'm aware, no Master's or Dom's posting here are advocating using a sub or slave for purpose of theft or similar activity.

WhiplashSmile -> RE: Masterhood (5/8/2007 10:48:00 AM)
CuriousLord, You have had this on going relationship with the same slave for 4 years now, since you were 16. You are attending college now. How much time in this 4 year period has this been a 24/7 relationship? Does she dwell with you now, if so then what means are you supporting yourselves, by what income while you attend school? One could make the assumption you are in your 2nd-3rd year of college studies now based on your current age and the age people enter college after high school. It would appear that you established a working D/s or M/s relationship around your Sophmore or Junior high school year. We you living together while attending high school, how did you guys survive? What have been some of the challenges in your M/s relationship while attending school and being able to financially support things. I am somewhat confused and I know I'm not loosing my mind. In your opening post you stated you recently came to find the wording for what you believe it means to be a master. Am I correct that you recently found the correct wording to apply to the relationship you've had for the last four years? Or has your relationship just recently shitfed to M/s dynamics since you've been researching BDSM in depth? I know I'm not loosing my mind, because you made a comment (I beleive edited out and removed) about being suprised that there were actually women that wanted to be submissive, let alone wanting to be slaves. I know I'm not loosing my mind reading this last night. I've been scrolling the thread today looking for it and it's not there (hence why I believe it was edited out and removed). I know I read something very close to what I just stated in this paragraph. I'm not trying to challenge your intellect here, however I am challenging with a certain amount of suspion that your relationship claims with this slave is proof enough that your model works and can be maintained for a Long Term 24/7 relationship. I have not read any real time life experience examples in any posts you've made on the thread. You know sharing moments in your relationship as proof with other people as an example. Instead it's been limited to theortical examples of what if a slave did this or this or that. I've noticed many people posting on the boards that will cite specific moments or challenges in their relationship and use these things for examples. Hell, I myself will even do this from time to time. Where a little story from a past or current relationship is used for the example and proof itself, verses a theoretical examples. While yes, I myself did post theoretical examples it was for the sake of testing the OP's model under extremes. This is a common process in the initial development of any constructs or models like these. Am I suspicious and questioning regarding a few things going on in this thread? You betcha I am...

CuriousLord -> RE: Masterhood (5/8/2007 10:55:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WhiplashSmile This is a Good question for the OP to consider or factor into his M/s concept relationship model he's presenting on the message board. Many of the points being challenged deal with the concept of a Master taking complete responsibility of all the slaves actions. One of the primary foundations many parents try to instill in children is responsibility for actions. Now, these children a growing up in a household where responsibility and accountability are handled how again? I think this fair game to ask about this, do you not? It's a fair question, and an interesting one. I'm twenty, and have two more years of college ahead of me (doing the five-year double major thing). In my youth, I've observed that happy families tend to have have children towards and into their thirty's. I've since speculated a large part of this reason is being able to establish a more secure finicial base before taking on such a finicial strain. My slave's a little over a year behind me, having just celebrated her nineteenth a while back. But, in any case, we're both young and I'm not looking for children anytime soon. She keeps joking that she's due, in her family skip-a-generation trend, to have twins, constantly hinting at it.. But, no, this is off-topic, just my musings on how cute I find her at times. :) Anyhow, my point, again, is that I'm more worried about getting through college, then starting a career. I have every intention of providing an excellent home life and education for my young, as my parents had for me. Kids is a subject I really like, and not just with regards to the M/s dynamic discussion. I believe my childhood was a great, fond time in my life, before a sob-story of a follow up I'll spare everyone. For whatever pains I may have suffered since, or will endure in the future, I will always know that I have been fortunate for having been given life, if only to live for those years. It is with this in mind that I carry every intention of seeing my children growing happy and well. I'm not overy concerned about how the M/s dynamic would effect it as I feel it will be important to educate my kids. When they're eight, I'm going to tell them it's okay to masturbate and they don't have to feel so shitty about it, like I did. I'm likely not going to get into full-blown M/s discussions with them until they're older, but that would be more for the same reasons I wouldn't get into a full-blown marriage dating or marriage discussion with them until later. There's a lot of things I want to teach my kids. I've already started writing a book of notes, from highschool up, for them- just so, if nothing else, when I sit down to help them with their homework, I'll be able to look back and see how I thought about it at the time, what worked for me and what didn't, and to simply recall what it was like to be in their shoes. Ick. This doesn't answer the concern so much as goes on with my own rant, eh? Ah wells. I'll cut it off here. I'll conclude with, no matter what dynamic I may have at the time, my children will live a childhood that they will later be able to smile and tell strangers, "No matter what should come, for the rest of my days, I will always be happy to have been able to been alive."

WhiplashSmile -> RE: Masterhood (5/8/2007 10:58:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BeingChewsie I'm sitting here wondering where does any of this "Master orders slave to do all kinds of heinous pyromanic kleptomaniac thieving stuff" actually occur? I live a very sheltered life out here in Southern California. These were theoretical examples used in testing a theoretical construct or model. Flaws can not be discovered in a theoretical model unless tested. Call it mental exploration into how well the OPs M/s dynamics work and at what point does it all fall apart. He did respond to the lines of questioning, it actually added more clarity for many readers and the OP himself. These lines of questioning are designed to challenge a model and expand upon the model itself. It Gets people to think more and see things a little more clearly as well. This is not an uncommon process when building or dealing with constructs and models such as the OP is doing.

CuriousLord -> RE: Masterhood (5/8/2007 11:17:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WhiplashSmile CuriousLord, You have had this on going relationship with the same slave for 4 years now, since you were 16. You are attending college now. How much time in this 4 year period has this been a 24/7 relationship? Does she dwell with you now, if so then what means are you supporting yourselves, by what income while you attend school? One could make the assumption you are in your 2nd-3rd year of college studies now based on your current age and the age people enter college after high school. It would appear that you established a working D/s or M/s relationship around your Sophmore or Junior high school year. We you living together while attending high school, how did you guys survive? What have been some of the challenges in your M/s relationship while attending school and being able to financially support things. Four years? That's about as long as I've been in this lifestyle! No, my slave's been mine for one year. Have I misrepresented this somewhere? quote: ORIGINAL: WhiplashSmile I am somewhat confused and I know I'm not loosing my mind. In your opening post you stated you recently came to find the wording for what you believe it means to be a master. Am I correct that you recently found the correct wording to apply to the relationship you've had for the last four years? Or has your relationship just recently shitfed to M/s dynamics since you've been researching BDSM in depth? This relationship started as a BDSM relationship. Much to my surprise, actually. I had just come out of a four-month M/s relationship with one girl who I felt to be beautiful, brilliant, and wonderful. My relationship with her had followed the trend of, "Me boyfriend, you girlfriend. <insert grunts>." Then, well, the first night in bed, "..wait, you're into that, too?" (Excuse me if that's too much detail.) That previous relationship had failed under the pressure of long distance and my growing suspision my "slave" of the time was being disobidient, even unfaithful, behind my back. While I could never prove the unfaithfulness, the strain and pressure the suspisions- many of which were found as accurate- were enough to cause me to disband the relationship. She wasn't exactly in tears. It was just too hard at that point. I had thought I found one of the most wonderful girls ever, so I refused myself another relationship and warded off other females, even just friends. This one was one who knew me well enough to know about the M/s dynamic I lived in. She offered to be my slave- begged, really- and I laughed at her. After she protested she'd be able to serve well, I laughed at her and challenged her to do it. She ran away three days later. I expected it with certainty. Two days later, when she came back, she made her case. She didn't beg to return until two days after that. At this time, about a week after I initially accepted her plea to serve, is when I credit the start of our relationship, proper. She's tallied the days since, alerting me to each weekly and montly anniversery. We're still a bit shy of the one-year mark. Pft. Just like the kids rant. I'm going on too much. Moving on. quote: ORIGINAL: WhiplashSmile I know I'm not loosing my mind, because you made a comment (I beleive edited out and removed) about being suprised that there were actually women that wanted to be submissive, let alone wanting to be slaves. I know I'm not loosing my mind reading this last night. I've been scrolling the thread today looking for it and it's not there (hence why I believe it was edited out and removed). I know I read something very close to what I just stated in this paragraph. Strange. It shouldn't be removed, unless a mod took it out. In any case, your memory is accurate- I said that in response to "domken" or something like that. (I believe.) quote: ORIGINAL: WhiplashSmile I'm not trying to challenge your intellect here, however I am challenging with a certain amount of suspion that your relationship claims with this slave is proof enough that your model works and can be maintained for a Long Term 24/7 relationship. I'm afraid all I can really do is argue the mechanics in which it works and state that it does. This, being the Internet, I could simply be making this all up. While this is by no means a confession to doing so, it is an encouragement to look for substance, reason, and a concesus of opinion as opposed to verifiable specific facts concerning a particular individual's life. Though I would find it complimentary that you've foregone simply writing me off. quote: ORIGINAL: WhiplashSmile I have not read any real time life experience examples in any posts you've made on the thread. You know sharing moments in your relationship as proof with other people as an example. Instead it's been limited to theortical examples of what if a slave did this or this or that. I've noticed many people posting on the boards that will cite specific moments or challenges in their relationship and use these things for examples. Hell, I myself will even do this from time to time. Where a little story from a past or current relationship is used for the example and proof itself, verses a theoretical examples. While yes, I myself did post theoretical examples it was for the sake of testing the OP's model under extremes. This is a common process in the initial development of any constructs or models like these. I've been trying to keep my relationship, as something I value and cherish, away from the flames, accusations, and insults of more inconsiderate posters. What I have presented here is the dynamic I'm glad for- something I feel is shared by at least some of the community. The specific relationship, however, is more personal to me, and it is not something I would whore out to the choping block of a post here. quote: ORIGINAL: WhiplashSmile Am I suspicious and questioning regarding a few things going on in this thread? You betcha I am... Feel free, I suppose. While I find you an interesting debate partner, in reality, this is just a message board, and I'm not willing to open up details of personal or intimate life in an environment in which I do not feel they'd be respected. Hell, I doubt respect would be enough.. they'd need to be cherished. I do believe, to note, I was hoping for such an environment when I initially posted- that others would contribute the more cherished aspects of their own dynamics- for this post to be a celebration of the dynamic. While I tried to set it up, empathesizing how it was out of joy I made the OP, and made an extensive footnote disclaiming anything I felt might offend others, this hope has not been realized. Hostility and pretention have run amok, and, well, there's just nothing here in which would incline an individual to share that warm, fuzzy feeling, now is there? I guess I started in this post, a bit, as I did in the children's bit. I felt the pretention was a bit further past as the flames seem to have died down. I still forget myself, at times.

WhiplashSmile -> RE: Masterhood (5/8/2007 11:19:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: darkinshadows I do not see how it adds anything constructive to the discussion. Children are raised in different environments all over the world. Being in a family where the dynamic is MS related is no different to being in a dynamic where a child is raised in a Christian dynamic or a single parent one. They learn from the experience within the family, but that doesn't mean they will take that and use it within their life when they turn 18 or whatever age they leave home and start their own lives. If one comes from a family of atheists, does not mean they will become an athiest. They just grow and watch that set of ideas and take it into their own life. Some parents do not instil responsibility into their children. Some instil no responsibility - heck - some parents do not even show responsibility. Showing and raising a child to understand a dynamic, doesnt mean you are forcing it upon them, or make them accept it as their own dynamic - simply that life is diverse. By your statement, you are basically indicating that if a parent is gay, their child will undoubtedly become gay as well - because thats the way they are raised - which is of course bull as we are mostly all aware. I think you are taking CLs statement and just tearing it apart simply because it isn't your dynamic and using out of this world examples to try and deny his exists. It can exist, without all the examples of drama that yourself and a handful of others are trying to thrust into the discussion to confuse the issue, quite frankly. We do things in wiitwd every day that can be classed as illegal - so bringing in the law is a completely moot point - because people ignore that everyday in their specific and unique relationships. And how raising a family when in a MS relationship is no different to any other orientation, belief or dynamic. Peace I was looking at from the stand point like this... Kid goes to school.. Kid gets into trouble... Let's say for the sake theoretical example the Kid caused damage or harm to another... Now School calls home to talk to Parental Units... Is Mom is responisble or not for this Kid or is the Master the Only One Responsible for the Kid? If a Master is responsible for the Slave actions, then how can the slave be responsible to the kid! Don't tell me the Kid won't be expecting thier own mother to not be responsible for them? What who is responsible to who and when. Is there not responsibility in a Parent Child Relationship? If the Mom (slave) does have responsibility in your opinion for the child, then this conflicts a slave not being responsible and the master is responsible for it all.. Yes, Honey I'm your mommy but I'm not responsible for you, My Master is... The OPs model removes a slaves responsibility towards all others and places it solely upon himself. Don't get me wrong I do understand the OPs mode or model of thinking for this M/s dyanamic, however like many others here I see some flaws that can surface into real issues. Now does the Master assume the same level of responsibility for the Kids as he would his slave under the OP's model. If not, then does this not make the Kids more responsible when compared to their own mother?

jaunty1 -> RE: Masterhood (5/8/2007 11:20:23 AM)
quote: I don't see the contradiction just yet. The Master is responsible for his slave so long as she follows his guidelines- this is to say, he's responsible for her, so long as she remains responsible to him. Still, if there is a contradiction, I'd appreciate it being pointed out. The contradiction lies in your choice of wording. In one instance you say that a Master is solely responsible for the actions of his property as long as the property acts within his own guidelines and orders; in another instance you say that everything a slave does is due to the responsibility and credit of the owner. You have to choose one instance or the other. Either you, as the owner only take responsibility for her actions when she obeys; or you take responsibility always. quote: This is one of those subjects that I just have to default to saying "this is a mechanism of the dynamic". For instance, in your life, and in your relationships, you may not take credit for it. Which is really just fine- I just do it differently. My reason for doing it this way is that, when I collar a slave, I assume liability for her assets and flaws. Sort of a catch-all. Fair enough. quote: You mean I said that, if I got my slave thrown in jail, I wouldn't do anything to try to help her? I can't recall, honestly- it's a subject I try to avoid. Frankly, it makes me sad to consider what I would see as a betrayal of her trust so horribly. If I did say I wouldn't, if you could show me where, I'd like to take another look at it. I am asking you now how you would handle such a thing. Fairly straightforward and simple. quote: Yup, the idea of children came up later. The dynamic I'm illistrating in this post would call for that. However, this same dynamic is only a portion of my current one, as I've posted in response to my new-found words to express it. As it's an incomplete version of mine, and mine doesn't even have children involved in it, I'm not going to begin to claim it would work on the emotional level. My point behind this part is that, in this dynamic, as illistrated, this is how that would work. It would, too, provided people agree to it. If a mother would agree to care for her own children out of submission to the father or not, though, is an entirely other story. Again; since you do not have children, it is easy to understand why you can not wrap your head around the fact that a mother will care for those children IN SPITE OF the father/Master/Owner, etc. *quote:* This is another place I'd say your disagreement appears to be based more on the fact we subscribe to different dynamics- even if similar. In my view and way of working with it, she's obligated to only one thing: to serve me. Now, I've made provisions for if a slave fails in her duty due to inability or misunderstanding, which would fault to me. It is an interesting point, though, that you would feel as you have failed your slave. My view is based off the idea that the slave, at the time of collaring, was dishonset about her nature- that she would not always do as instructed, thus invalidating the basis of the dynamic. However, your argument seems to be supported by the fact that disobidience may spawn during a relationship.. something which, while it doens't quite make sense to me, is a good point to consider. Do you know in what ways a Master may unintentionally inspire disobidence in a formerly devout and loyal slave? It's something neat to consider. melissa is obligated to only two things within our relationship. Absolute obedience; and beauty of spirit. Refusal of those two and not only is she released; but divorced also. If she can not give me absolute obedience in all things; then I have somehow failed to inspire that in her. She has not failed as a slave; I have failed as her owner to Master her. Deliberate disobedience is never something that is spur of the moment. It happens because there are underlying issues that are being failed to be addressed. If I can not take the time to address these issues; then I have failed my slave. It's very simple. It does not matter what kind of issues she came into the relationship with or if they developed within the relationship. If I do not address them, I have failed. If she hides these issues from me; again, I have failed because I did not inspire her to be truthful. quote: What if a slave has been an actress? Simply acting the part- well- and then commits a grand crime, blantantly disregarding your rules? Would you be responsible for this? Yes. Because once again, I have failed to recognize the issues that lead up to such disobedience. quote: would argue that, if she was truly my slave, why would she fail me for the sake of disobidience? (Again, if she's failed due to inability or misunderstanding, that is my fault.) I would like to add something here before I go further. melissa is one of the most submissive women that I have ever come across; not only to me, but to others also. She does not have a mean bone in her body; yet, even she does and has on occassion, been disobedient. It's not the disobedience that becomes an issue though; it is what caused her to do so. If I can not get to the underlying issues and we can not work them out; then the failure of the relationship falls to my shoulders because it is I who have been given that responsibility. So, to answer once again, if she is not obeying my orders or wishes; it is my fault. Live well Alex

lovewithoutfear -> RE: Masterhood (5/8/2007 11:23:05 AM)
CuriousLord and Jaunty1, thank you for both the details and the spirit of this fascinating discussion!

lovewithoutfear -> RE: Masterhood (5/8/2007 11:28:44 AM)
"you can transfer authority but never responsibility" That about sums it up, I think.

CuriousLord -> RE: Masterhood (5/8/2007 11:46:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jaunty1 quote: You mean I said that, if I got my slave thrown in jail, I wouldn't do anything to try to help her? I can't recall, honestly- it's a subject I try to avoid. Frankly, it makes me sad to consider what I would see as a betrayal of her trust so horribly. If I did say I wouldn't, if you could show me where, I'd like to take another look at it. I am asking you now how you would handle such a thing. Fairly straightforward and simple. To answer this, I'd have to say it would require some soul-searching. I believe that people tend to follow their defintions of selves- their identity, as they believe it to be. As it is contradictory to my identity to cause such an event in the first place, how I would deal with it would depend on how the hypothetical me is different from the real me, as he would have to be. This is to say, I can not answer this, as my definition of self does not include such a provision. To answer if my slave, somehow, were to get arrested and taken to court for some reason (assuming this reason isn't in gross violation of me), I would probably end up fighting pretty hard for her. My legal knowledge isn't altogether futile, though the sources of it, my lawyer kin, would likely be able to help her a good bit. I do not believe I would claim sole responsbility for it as, though it would seem noble, I doubt any good would come of it. It would only break my slave's heart further to see me also put in jail, and I would be able to better fight for her freedom without such a stigma against my credibility in court. quote: ORIGINAL: jaunty1 Again; since you do not have children, it is easy to understand why you can not wrap your head around the fact that a mother will care for those children IN SPITE OF the father/Master/Owner, etc. This strikes me as likely to be generally true in effect, though I'm phobic of making assumptions about anything. I wouldn't assume every mother would be ready to override her concern for submission with her concern for her children. Not to sound jaded, but some mothers find an utter disconcern for their children's existence or well being. While I would never condone such a stance nor am I particularly happy about it existing, I feel it's a strong argument as to the fact that some women will put their own interests before their offspring. quote: ORIGINAL: jaunty1 melissa is obligated to only two things within our relationship. Absolute obedience; and beauty of spirit. Refusal of those two and not only is she released; but divorced also. If she can not give me absolute obedience in all things; then I have somehow failed to inspire that in her. She has not failed as a slave; I have failed as her owner to Master her. Here's a point where it can sound like there's a contradiction. It sounds like you're saying that, should yours refuse you, you would both release and divorce her; however, it also sounds like you're saying it would be your own fault. Could you elaborate? quote: ORIGINAL: jaunty1 quote: What if a slave has been an actress? Simply acting the part- well- and then commits a grand crime, blantantly disregarding your rules? Would you be responsible for this? Yes. Because once again, I have failed to recognize the issues that lead up to such disobedience. It's, again, a noble sentiment. In my most recent previous M/s relationship, my "slave" played the actress. The provision that I would not be responsible for actions that my current slave would take in contradiction to my orders comes from this. I argue the basis of disobidience in a well cared for slave would be present at the time of collaring and covered in an act of deception by the slave's person when this person was a free individual. This deception would be nullifying to contracts made with such an individual since the time at which it was commited, to include the collaring, effectively nullifying the collar and slave status. Still, I make this argument on more intellectual and less in-effect grounds. If, in your dynamic, you have found accepting fault for your slave's flaws has been conductive to your interests in the relationships, I will not fault you for excerising your free right to participate in a mutually consentual relationship as you see fit, nor would I fault you for following what feels right in such a spirit. quote: ORIGINAL: jaunty1 I would like to add something here before I go further. melissa is one of the most submissive women that I have ever come across; not only to me, but to others also. She does not have a mean bone in her body; yet, even she does and has on occassion, been disobedient. It's not the disobedience that becomes an issue though; it is what caused her to do so. If I can not get to the underlying issues and we can not work them out; then the failure of the relationship falls to my shoulders because it is I who have been given that responsibility. So, to answer once again, if she is not obeying my orders or wishes; it is my fault. I'm certainly glad that this works so well for you and brings you happiness. While I may not adopt it for my own life, I'm still glad you put it out here; it's good to know of and think about. I wish you well.

jaunty1 -> RE: Masterhood (5/8/2007 11:46:51 AM)
quote: I'd happily debate this with you, if you're up for it. It was my sincerest of hopes to receive such contributions in the orignial post. While some posters have made contributions to the content of the thread, and others have made good points, this is the first thing I feel I could benifit from. By all means. quote: To begin, should you be willing, I'll take the standpoint that a Master should not be responsible for instances of blantant disobidience. (As a debate, I'm receptive to your ideas and arguments, this is my stance as I seem to lean more towards it than you do, and I believe you're more comfortable arguing that a Master should take full responsibilty, even in the case of disobidience.) A view which I disagree with. As her owner, I am fully responsible; including the times when she is blatantly disobedient. quote: 1.)I feel there are two hypothetical sources of factors contributing to disobidience: those present at the time of collaring and those acquired since. I would agree; though let's keep the hypothetical out of it. In ANY relationship, there are always issues that are there before, and issues that will come up during and after. quote: 2.)I would argue that a pure slave, assuming she was without such factors at the time of collaring, would not gain disobidient factors under the thoughtful guidance of a Master. Bad moods happen. Bad days happen. There are things that are beyond our own scope and ability to control. They all contribute to instances where disobedience can and will happen. Willfully, and blatantly. How you handle these instances will decide how often they will happen. quote: 3.)I would continue that, should one who has been guided by a thoughtful Master, she must have either been deceptive at the time of collaring as to the issue of her stance towards obidience or that the collar was offered prematurely and/or erronously. My answer above would apply. quote: 4.)I would sum these up in that, should Master have conducted due process in consideration before collaring and acted thoughtfully since, it is most likely disobidient elements of a slave's personality existed at the time of collaring and were misrepresented by the slave. I disagree. Melissa and I talked at great length about what I expected from her in our relationship. I know she was fully truthfull in examining all angles before agreeing to become mine. Yet, there have been instances where she has deliberatly defied me. Not because she was not truthful; but because the learning process opens up whole new avenues, and she discovered something along the way that was unpleasant to her. quote: 5.)I would continue that a collaring made under the influence of willful deception is invalid. Under willful deception; I would agree. Live well Alex

CuriousLord -> RE: Masterhood (5/8/2007 11:50:02 AM)
I'm glad you found it worthwhile, lovewithoutfear. quote: ORIGINAL: lovewithoutfear "you can transfer authority but never responsibility" That about sums it up, I think. If you just wanted to express your opinion, and don't feel like getting into a debate, there's no need to respond to this- I appreciate hearing another's prospective in genearl. If you would be up for discussion on the topic, I would ask how this could be, if responsibility is typically attributed to those with the authority?

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