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Slave behavior that irritates - 5/16/2007 6:03:48 PM   
gothique


Posts: 4
Joined: 10/9/2004
Status: offline 		I am the alpha female submissive to my Master who also owns a  female slave.  She and I have a relationship loosely based on the Japanese Sempai/kohai model.  When she misbehaves or fails in her assigned duties, it reflects badly on me.
There is one thing she does a lot of the time and I need some suggestions on how to motivate a better response.
When Master is dressing her down and telling her what she has done wrong, at the end, he always asks her for her thoughts and feelings regarding what has transpired.  He always tells her to feel free to speak and be honest.  She will kneel there with her hands behind her, her head bowed, and will not utter a word.  I know she has thoughts, she's not stupid by any stretch of the imagination. 
I need to know how others have handled reluctnat-to-speak sub/slaves.
What will motivate them to speak? 
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RE: Slave behavior that irritates - 5/16/2007 6:27:05 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		Unless she is going to offer a justification for her bad behavior, what is there for her to say? Seriously, sometimes it is better to keep one's mouth shut instead of keeping a problem going by commenting on it. Perhaps she just wants the dressing down over? I know I am getting to the point where when he verbally reprimands me for behavior he does not like I tell him "yes Daddy" so that we can move on and then I do not repeat it. If I repeat it, he will again tell me it bothers him and I will again endeavor not to repeat it. Talking about how I "feel" about it seems to serve no purpose other than to justify myself. I have attempted to do that a time or two also, but he nipped that in the bud too.

So I would ask, what is to be accomplished by her talking about how she feels about this? Perhaps she needs time to internalize how she feels and what she needs to do to be better? Is there something wrong with that?

_____________________________

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(in reply to gothique)
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RE: Slave behavior that irritates - 5/16/2007 6:29:20 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		Well really I'd do nothing.  The master at the time can remind her that she will not have an opportunity in the future and may be punished later if she admits she lied, but otherwise you have to just let her go on and think she may have thoughts but doesn't consider them relevant.

Immediately after being chastised might in fact be the WORST time for some subs to reflect and communicate.  They might be too overwhelmed, or confused or mired in their own sense of frustration and loathing to really do or say anything useful.  Perhaps allowing them to think about it for a day and THEN return to the issue.

If she's been accepted as a slave, one assumes that the master already knew this was her behavior and doesn't see a need to change it, nor has it caused any problems.

So stop looking for it to be one.

If you WANT, during happy quiet social time, bring it up that you notice she's reluctant to bring stuff up and ask if she knows why.  Keep it social, keep it easy, make sure you don't make her feel like you think she's doing something wrong- you just want to understand how her mind processes things.  And then give her feedback if you wish.

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RE: Slave behavior that irritates - 5/16/2007 6:31:10 PM   
TemptingNviceSub


Posts: 3054
Joined: 10/1/2005
Status: offline 		Although I agree with Julia..if you seek answers or responses then maybe ask a more direct question...Tempting

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RE: Slave behavior that irritates - 5/16/2007 6:33:17 PM   
paulthesub


Posts: 59
Joined: 2/9/2007
From: Calgary
Status: offline 		I know in situations like that I freeze up myself and desperately want to answer but can't. It's hard when you're put on the spot and pressured to come up with an answer when you get brain vapour lock. My suggestion would be to get her to write down whatever her answer is. That way she can do it in her own time (to a certain extent) and contemplate her own thoughts.

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RE: Slave behavior that irritates - 5/16/2007 6:35:11 PM   
adoracat


Posts: 1779
Joined: 2/16/2007
Status: offline 		fast answer....

perhaps gently giving her another *way* to get her feelings out?  i know i have a VERY difficult time with saying exactly where my mind is, especially verbally.  writing comes easier to me, it always has.

being allowed (or perhaps Ordered) to write her feelings on the situation might be a better way to let her express her feelings.

kitten, who struggles.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
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RE: Slave behavior that irritates - 5/16/2007 6:35:15 PM   
slaveish


Posts: 1086
Joined: 2/19/2007
Status: offline 		I do not know the protocol for the model you're talking about, but perhaps her sister on her knees on the floor next to her, speaking quietly to her Master, telling him how she herself has failed, setting a strong and good example of what is desired.

... or ... Master punishing the alpha for the other slave's failure. It works with my sister and me - we protect each other and do not want to be the cause of punishment for the other. 

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(in reply to juliaoceania)
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RE: Slave behavior that irritates - 5/16/2007 6:36:53 PM   
MadameButterfly


Posts: 29
Joined: 6/17/2005
Status: offline 		I agree with juliaoceania anything a slave says when being chastised for her shortcominigs is going to look like diversion and excuses.

Madame Butterfly

(in reply to juliaoceania)
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RE: Slave behavior that irritates - 5/16/2007 6:41:51 PM   
PhoenixLM


Posts: 79
Joined: 5/12/2005
From: Fort Wayne, Indiana
Status: offline 		I am also an alpha sub, when my owner has slaves in the house and they preform below standards it is my responsiblity to teach them and or correct them. A behavior should never get so bad that it draws her attention, unfortunatly that is not how it always works.
I have often just walked up to a slave and ask them what they are thinking, this normally takes them off gard so that they spill thier guts. On the rare occassions that a slave glares at me I simply remind them slaves have no privacy in thought or deed, and lying by ommission is the same as an out and out lie. This has always worked for me. By the same token the asker must be prepared to hear the slave out and "step outside" themself so as to not take things personaly. I have been told I am a bitch and that I push harder than any drill sargent they ever had. One was true the other was not and I can call a drill sargent to prove it!
I do come off as a bitch at times and I do push for excellence as this is my owners requirements.

This is just how we work here, it may or may not work for you.



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House Ds Haven
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(in reply to gothique)
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RE: Slave behavior that irritates - 5/16/2007 6:45:57 PM   
Lashra


Posts: 4900
Joined: 2/9/2006
Status: offline 		Perhaps she is angry and is fearful she may say something that she may end up regretting. This is usually true with people who have temper and are trying to curtail it. You may want to ask her how she feels when your Master treats her that way and just see what she says. If that is indeed the case, she may need sometime to think about what she wants to say and then come back to him.

~Lashra


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(in reply to gothique)
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RE: Slave behavior that irritates - 5/16/2007 6:48:00 PM   
soultoshare


Posts: 519
Joined: 8/24/2006
Status: offline 		i can understand her reluctance to speak.....i face the same issues when my Sir asks me about what i am thinking, whether he is punishing me or after he has done training with me.  Quite frankly, when i was being punished, i only wanted it to be over, so talking even more about it was not something i desired......i knew i screwed up, i sucked it up, and kept my mouth shut.  To me, anything i have to say before or after being "dressed down" or punished is just me trying to explain why, but it still sounds like an excuse.

It is easier for me to write my thoughts to him in an e-mail, and he understands this.  Quite frankly, i wish there was another sub or slave that i could talk to, he has another in the house, and she already hates me, as she's apparently spoken disrespectfully and badly of me, and has been severely punished for it.  Right now i'm more afraid of her than i am of anything else about the steps i will be taking in the next few months. 

If she will open up to you, get her to.  She's probably got things on her mind that she may not know how to approach Him about.  My Sir tells me that i can always speak freely, but i'm not secure enough yet to do so....Lord only knows why....considering everything we've already done, but i noticed that once he offered me his ownership, that suddenly, it's like i'm tongue-tied!  i'm seriously hoping that THAT goes away with more constant contact with him. 

Good luck!

m

(in reply to TemptingNviceSub)
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RE: Slave behavior that irritates - 5/16/2007 6:48:40 PM   
OsideGirl


Posts: 14441
Joined: 7/1/2005
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: gothique
She will kneel there with her hands behind her, her head bowed, and will not utter a word.  I know she has thoughts, she's not stupid by any stretch of the imagination. 
I need to know how others have handled reluctnat-to-speak sub/slaves.
What will motivate them to speak? 


From a psychological stand point, you've put her in a defensive position. It's in our very nature to defend ourselves when placed in this position. In this case it's her silence. So, unless you're prepared to change your approach, chances are you won't get a different reaction.



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The Accelerated Velocity of Terminological Inexactitude

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RE: Slave behavior that irritates - 5/16/2007 6:50:58 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MadameButterfly

I agree with juliaoceania anything a slave says when being chastised for her shortcominigs is going to look like diversion and excuses.

Madame Butterfly



Responses to being dressed down.

1)  The person might attempt to convince me that my perception is incorrect.  I will listen, ponder it, and if it is valid I will not be insistent that I am right and she is wrong.

2)  The person might attempt to convince me that my perception is incorrect.  I will listen, ponder it, and if it is not valid I will find a different way to frame my perceptions.  I have been told I can be extremely persuasive, but part of me thinks that if I have to extend a vast amount of energy to persuade somebody, they must be resistant to what I am trying to say.

3)  The person might attempt to apologize.  My thoughts on that is the only truly sincere apology is to not engage in the behavior one is apologizing for.  If it is a situation where I have not been explicit enough, I will make sure the person understands what I am objecting to.  I assume the person will ask questions until they fully understand it, and may ask questions to make sure.

4)  The person may not say anything.  From what was posted in the OP, it sounds as if the person is under adrenal stress and unable to articulate a response.  I would simply ask them to repeat back to me what I told them, and then indicate that we are "tabling" the discussion until a specific time in the future.

I also agree with the poster who stated that the best solution is to ask the people involved what is going on, in an emotionally neutral setting and conversation, and come to a workable solution.

Just me, etc

Sinergy

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"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to MadameButterfly)
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RE: Slave behavior that irritates - 5/16/2007 7:15:17 PM   
thetammyjo


Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: gothique

I am the alpha female submissive to my Master who also owns a female slave. She and I have a relationship loosely based on the Japanese Sempai/kohai model. When she misbehaves or fails in her assigned duties, it reflects badly on me.
There is one thing she does a lot of the time and I need some suggestions on how to motivate a better response.
When Master is dressing her down and telling her what she has done wrong, at the end, he always asks her for her thoughts and feelings regarding what has transpired. He always tells her to feel free to speak and be honest. She will kneel there with her hands behind her, her head bowed, and will not utter a word. I know she has thoughts, she's not stupid by any stretch of the imagination.
I need to know how others have handled reluctnat-to-speak sub/slaves.
What will motivate them to speak?


What will motivate?

I don't think that is an ideal question.

A better question in my opinion would be "How can we work on making it easier for her to communicate more freely?"

Here are my suggestions:

Ask for her opinions at other times. Make communication a standard activity in the household for every one.

Have her start journaling as a way to routinely develop the skills of self-reflection.

Use written responses instead of verbal -- creates a greater distance and may make initial discussion less intense or threatening.

Use art or visual responses instead of verbal.

On a different note, your master may want to think about why he has this "dressing down" time with her and what he hopes to accomplish with this activity.

Frankly if someone required a lot of correction I'd consider that they they were not a good fit into my household.

If the correction is not really necessary but more just his way of demonstrating his authority or power, he may be creating a negetative envirnoment that discourages her from communicating honestly and openly. Just because we can do things does not mean that it is wisest for us to do them as dominants and owners.

< Message edited by thetammyjo -- 5/16/2007 7:19:09 PM >

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(in reply to gothique)
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RE: Slave behavior that irritates - 5/16/2007 7:23:47 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: gothique

What will motivate them to speak? 


Well.. this maybe entirely to simple to make any sense..

but... maybe just maybe one should try to understand first why she is motivated not to speak in the first place.

Seems to me she is making a choice not to speak.... if you want her to make a different choice.... I suspect you need to understand why she is making the current choice. 


In addition.... I think Tempting has made an incredible perceptive suggestion... "Ask more direct questions"

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An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

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RE: Slave behavior that irritates - 5/16/2007 7:25:19 PM   
MagiksSlave


Posts: 2768
Joined: 9/11/2006
Status: offline 		There are times I cant speak... usually in sub space and aspecially right after getting into trouble for something.. One night I was goofing off a little to much and Master repremanded me.. he doesnt do it often so when it happens it really gets to me, I lost my voice and Master knew I had gone into a bad place, he tried for a while to get me to talk and I just couldnt no matter how I wanted to.. I even started talking to him in sighn language because I couldnt get words out I stayed silnet for a long time. I did eventually get my voice back moslty by Master breaking the tention I felt a reasureing me it was ok and he wasnt mad but he never got mad that I didnt talk he understood i couldnt when I got my voice back we talked but it took a while.

Magik's slave

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If you’re going through hell keep on moving
don't slow down
if you’re scared dont show it
you might get out
before the devil even knows your there.


-Rodney Atkins-



(in reply to thetammyjo)
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RE: Slave behavior that irritates - 5/16/2007 7:30:37 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline 		this slave has no experience in your japanese model/poly dynamic whatsoever so the only thing she has to offer is the univeral suggestion to TALK to the girl and make sure you have a CLEAR understanding that any displeasure Master has with her receiving her "dressing down" is going to reflect on you so here is how he likes it to be received:  then spell it out for her on no uncertain terms, if she behaves in a  manner inconsistent with what pleases him, she has to answer to you, because it reflects on you...and make that answering be as unpleasant for her as possible.
 
just a suggestion...

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 5/16/2007 7:31:27 PM >

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RE: Slave behavior that irritates - 5/16/2007 9:31:26 PM   
electrikfur


Posts: 12
Joined: 5/6/2007
Status: offline 		you should encourage via positive reinforcement. everytime she talks, reward her. even if you have to coax the response by asking a question and then making her pick an answer "did you like xzy? yes or no?"

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RE: Slave behavior that irritates - 5/16/2007 9:43:25 PM   
robertolapiedra


Posts: 520
Joined: 5/3/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: gothique

When Master is dressing her down and telling her what she has done wrong, at the end, he always asks her for her thoughts and feelings regarding what has transpired.  He always tells her to feel free to speak and be honest.  She will kneel there with her hands behind her, her head bowed, and will not utter a word.  I know she has thoughts, she's not stupid by any stretch of the imagination. 



Hello gothique. You are right , she is smart. Not answering in that context is a 'smart' answer. 'I have nothing to say' is an answer. On your knees, head bowed is a 'non verbal' answer and this combined to silence is the same as saying 'I am (feel) humbled at this moment and I have nothing to say to excuse my behavior'.

Personally, If one wants to use this style of 'reprimanding' you don't want the slave to answer and contradict you in a formal dressdown. You can always have a talk the next day after the slave had time to reflect (in a less formal mode).

In an other style ('old style') both of you would be dressed down. If you were really responsable for her, she would not witness your dressdown (but witness your punishment if there would be one). After seeing you, the dom dresses down 'your responsability' in front of you (and have 'you' punish her if this is required also). I'm talking major league here. I don't think you find this formalism to be very prevalent in these modern times.

It all depends on what you guys think works best for you. RL.

(in reply to gothique)
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RE: Slave behavior that irritates - 5/16/2007 11:20:02 PM   
aldompdx


Posts: 538
Joined: 10/24/2004
Status: offline 		It seems to me that it is a fear based relationship. Fear is not condusive to openness. The american culture of deterrent fosters fear, repression, closure. It takes a radical change in attitude towards reform culture and self improvement, starting with the master.

(in reply to robertolapiedra)
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