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RE: The Need to Know - 5/24/2007 10:19:33 AM   
darkinshadows


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quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

quote:

ORIGINAL: darkinshadows

But no one has it 'coming' velvet - two wrongs do not make a right.
 
If an abused woman meets someone who she suddenly finds she is falling in love with then she should just leave the relationship and be up front with her abuser. (Actually she should leave before she gets invovled but thats another thread) - not use the abuse as an excuse to lie and destroy her own integrity and respect.
 
Peace



I agree. An abused woman should get herself out of the situation regardless of meeting someone new. She shouldn't use that new person as a means of escape. Too often when this happens, once the air is clear she finds herself in another mess because she realizes the "appeal" of the new person was really just about them being their ticket out.


i never said she should erin - MrDiscipline made that assumption. 

You did say it, velvet, just in a different way.  And what it comes down to in the end that two wrongs do not make a right and that the woman is only destroy her personal integrity by cheating, or leaning on anyone to get her out of such a situation.  Believe me - It is hard and soul destroying - it is degrading and terribly painful to live through such abuse and then empowering to come out the otherside with your self respect in tact instead of riccchetting off every person who comes along and repeating the same or similar mistake over and over again.
 
Peace


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RE: The Need to Know - 5/24/2007 10:22:21 AM   
darkinshadows


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There is adequate support in most of the UK for abused men and women.  If you have a problem in this area, simply do not stick to your area, contact your nearest out of area and they will offer all kinds of support, including getting you away.  Even the CAB - social services and the samaritans can offer you assistance.  You just have to be willing to ask for help.
 
Peace


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...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

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RE: The Need to Know - 5/24/2007 10:36:08 AM   
velvetears


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

velvet, it's obvious that regardless of anything that anyone and everyone else has to say on the subject, you are going to choose to only try to understand it through the narrow and illogical view that is your own. I can only offer you a different view, if you choose not to even try to take a glimpse there is nothing more I can offer.


erin i understand the other side, i know what their points are and as i stated before of course they are entitled to them. i am just saying i am entitled to mine as well.  Why would anyone be so invested in trying to change a persons opinion unless they had some other underlying issue with the topic. i am not saying mine is the only way, or it is logically superior or any other claim as such. i am not putting anyone down for their opinion as others are doing to mine. We state our opinions and thats pretty much the end of it - i haven't tried to change anyones mind here or tell them they are wrong - so why be so vehement in trying to do so to me.... seems quite odd to me, or am i not entitled to an opinion that doesn't mesh with your own or eveyone elses? 

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RE: The Need to Know - 5/24/2007 10:41:20 AM   
velvetears


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

Erin - this is what you need to use as reply:





True to form katy, true to form - i would expect no better from someone who delights in antagonizing others - knock yourself out trying lol

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RE: The Need to Know - 5/24/2007 10:53:27 AM   
velvetears


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Status: offline 		Several people are standing on a corner waiting for the green light before crossing. Some will see no cars coming but wait anyway, others will use common sense and cross when they see no cars coming, are they breaking the law? Yeah technically i suppose.  i would use my good judgement and cross when i felt it was safe to do so. i bet there are others who would stand there for hours waiting because they want to uphold the law, well lets give them all a medal why don't we - aren't they grand people deserving of special status - i would rather cross and be on my merry way - but than again that's just me - others can stand there all day and wait for all i care

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RE: The Need to Know - 5/24/2007 10:57:54 AM   
RavenMuse


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Status: offline 		Yet again you show yourself as someone as familiar to logic as fish are to riding bicycles.

One does wonder at why you have SUCH a vested interest in defending cheating, even at the expense of logic (Not just others but your own, as your 'argument' even fell foul of your own example!). Wouldn't be guilt would it and trying to avoid the realisation that your past actions are unjustifiable? I can think of no other reason that someone would be so GROUNDLESSLY and illogicaly adamant!


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Profile   Post #: 106
RE: The Need to Know - 5/24/2007 11:02:09 AM   
velvetears


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RavenMuse

Yet again you show yourself as someone as familiar to logic as fish are to riding bicycles.

One does wonder at why you have SUCH a vested interest in defending cheating, even at the expense of logic (Not just others but your own, as your 'argument' even fell foul of your own example!). Wouldn't be guilt would it and trying to avoid the realisation that your past actions are unjustifiable? I can think of no other reason that someone would be so GROUNDLESSLY and illogicaly adamant!



Thanks for the insults - i don't feel the need to reply in kind. i could turn around what you say and ask you the same question. Just because you don't agree with my reasoning doesn't make it illogical - i personally think you have totally misunderstood my pov but i don't really care to try to correct it... so post away, insult, goad, etc... doesn't really matter. Sorry my OPINION pushed such a hot button for you.

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RE: The Need to Know - 5/24/2007 11:06:05 AM   
RavenMuse


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Status: offline 		You have NO reasoning, just blind statements that fail to stand up to any logical scrutiny.

_____________________________

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Owner of metalmiss

(in reply to velvetears)
Profile   Post #: 108
RE: The Need to Know - 5/24/2007 11:22:13 AM   
velvetears


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RavenMuse

You have NO reasoning, just blind statements that fail to stand up to any logical scrutiny.


So all reasoning has to be logical?  Do you believe in god? Many would say those who do are going against all logic as you cannot prove one exists. Others will argue there is a god without actual verifyable proof, although to them they feel they have proof he exists - so i guess the majority of the world is illogical in your eyes.

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Profile   Post #: 109
RE: The Need to Know - 5/24/2007 11:22:51 AM   
spankmepink11


Posts: 1310
Joined: 9/28/2005
Status: offline 		My ex husband cheated on me with a friend, the female half of a couple we were  friends with.  Not long after i was at a gathering of coworkers, and the subject of cheating came up...we shared our experiences, and a friend of my coworker offered to be a "revenge fuck"  (gallant i know...hah). 
My question to you  velvetears would be,  if i had taken this man up on his offer....would you consider it wrong?  Would you consider this cheating?   He  could be an asshole often...and was an alcoholic.  Under your logic, i could cheat, and it really wouldn't be cheating because he "deserved" it. 
 Maybe you didn't  mean it to sound like this,   here's another analogy of what i perceive you to be saying.  Lets say theres a wealthy man who was quite unscrupulous about how he attained his wealth, if you steal from him, is it not still stealing?   Even if  he "deserved" to be  stolen from due to his wicked ways? (as in karma).

I don't think anyone is  challenging your right to an opinion, but much like another poster stated, if you walked up to me and said  "in my opinion the world really is flat" i would agree that you have the right to that opinion, but i can't say i wouldn't comment on how that "opinion" made no sense.

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RE: The Need to Know - 5/24/2007 11:23:45 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


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quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears
- so i guess the majority of the world is illogical in your eyes.
It certainly is to my eyes. 

I just prefer when people are being illogical that they can admit it and be ok with it. 

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RE: The Need to Know - 5/24/2007 11:25:44 AM   
darkinshadows


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quote:

so i guess the majority of the world is illogical in your eyes.
 
Yup - totally.
But then to other people, I can be illogical - and I am ok with that.
 
Peace


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...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

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Profile   Post #: 112
RE: The Need to Know - 5/24/2007 11:26:08 AM   
mistoferin


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Status: offline 		You are on a D/s, M/s message board...a lifestyle that's basic tenets are supposed to be informed consent, trust and honesty. You are trying to "rationalize" and "justify" situations in which those basic tenets would become meaningless. If that is your opinion, you are correct in that you are entitled and even welcome to have it. But it is what it is so please don't  piss on my leg and try to convince me it's raining.

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Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

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RE: The Need to Know - 5/24/2007 11:27:11 AM   
darkinshadows


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears
- so i guess the majority of the world is illogical in your eyes.
It certainly is to my eyes. 

I just prefer when people are being illogical that they can admit it and be ok with it. 

Darnnit Em - you beat me to it -
Peace


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.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

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Profile   Post #: 114
RE: The Need to Know - 5/24/2007 11:33:27 AM   
MrDiscipline44


Posts: 1776
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Status: offline 		Believing in God is not about reasoning. It's about faith and they are two totally different things.

< Message edited by MrDiscipline44 -- 5/24/2007 11:35:13 AM >

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RE: The Need to Know - 5/24/2007 11:36:08 AM   
velvetears


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quote:

ORIGINAL: spankmepink11

My ex husband cheated on me with a friend, the female half of a couple we were  friends with.  Not long after i was at a gathering of coworkers, and the subject of cheating came up...we shared our experiences, and a friend of my coworker offered to be a "revenge fuck"  (gallant i know...hah). 
My question to you  velvetears would be,  if i had taken this man up on his offer....would you consider it wrong?  Would you consider this cheating?   He  could be an asshole often...and was an alcoholic.  Under your logic, i could cheat, and it really wouldn't be cheating because he "deserved" it. 
Maybe you didn't  mean it to sound like this,   here's another analogy of what i perceive you to be saying.  Lets say theres a wealthy man who was quite unscrupulous about how he attained his wealth, if you steal from him, is it not still stealing?   Even if  he "deserved" to be  stolen from due to his wicked ways? (as in karma).

I don't think anyone is  challenging your right to an opinion, but much like another poster stated, if you walked up to me and said  "in my opinion the world really is flat" i would agree that you have the right to that opinion, but i can't say i wouldn't comment on how that "opinion" made no sense.


Sorry spankmepink i missed your post, didn't mean to do that.  Yes in that case i personally would consider it wrong - i was not advocating revenge at all in my original op - maybe the wording or how people assume i think came into play i have no idea.  In my original op i was trying to make a point that someone who is so deviant, unscrupulous and bad (meaning the abuser) just doesn't even deserve consideration of any kind.  i wasn't saying the woman should go out and get revenge - not at all, nor was i saying she should use other people (as Mr Discipline put it so crudely her pussy) to get out of the situation.   Sometimes people, through abuse come to the end of their rope and if someone happened to come along who emotionally supported them and it turned sexual i would not condemn this woman as a cheater - did she technically cheat - yes, but like i said before what would be the point in holding to an oath that means absolutely nothing to the one you are married to... it just doesn't make sense to me - it's like the green light example i gave.  iam not advocating cheating or defending it - generally i think it is wrong - i just don't think black and white and i never will. Maybe others do and that's fine we all have to live life the way we see fit and what we can live with.

As with the earth being flat - that can be proved by science - whole different ballgame and a ridiculous example on RavenMuses part.  But you are right in that anyone can go around claiming anything they wish - look at all the conspiracy theories and how much debate that causes.


< Message edited by velvetears -- 5/24/2007 11:40:16 AM >

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RE: The Need to Know - 5/24/2007 11:38:16 AM   
velvetears


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrDiscipline44

Believing in God is not about reasoning. It's about faith and they are two totally different things.


And many say faith is illogical

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RE: The Need to Know - 5/24/2007 11:41:22 AM   
puella


Posts: 2457
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Status: offline 		I probably shouldn't be hopping in here because I have not read the thread, just this last bit of exchange.

Religion and mystical beliefs are not the same as logic... look to the Greeks, you have Mythos and Logos, both equally important but very different ways of approaching truth, and each really only applicable to certain truths... go love your Plato for a while.

The idea of throwing religious beliefs (mythos)  into a debate about logically formed opinions (logos) is sort of void from the outset.

< Message edited by puella -- 5/24/2007 11:46:07 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 118
RE: The Need to Know - 5/24/2007 11:49:04 AM   
velvetears


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

You are on a D/s, M/s message board...a lifestyle that's basic tenets are supposed to be informed consent, trust and honesty. You are trying to "rationalize" and "justify" situations in which those basic tenets would become meaningless. If that is your opinion, you are correct in that you are entitled and even welcome to have it. But it is what it is so please don't  piss on my leg and try to convince me it's raining.


erin where did i try to convince you of anything?  You and others took issue with an opinion i stated, some, including yourself then decided to throw insults at me (i don't hold any grudge) people get emotional when a topic effects them - i have done it as well.  The example i gave was a general one - the two could be dom sub or just husband and wife. i am aware of informed consent - which i am sure the beaten half to death woman never gave by the way.  People make promises and give their word many a time and have to break them for their own safety - what about the slave who committs to a master and vows to obey, be his forever etc etc and he snaps one day and tries to kill her - would you argue she should stay because she made a M/s vow?  Personally i would use common sense and save my life. 

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RE: The Need to Know - 5/24/2007 11:51:09 AM   
velvetears


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quote:

ORIGINAL: puella

I probably shouldn't be hopping in here because I have not read the thread, just this last bit of exchange.

Religion and mystical beliefs are not the same as logic... look to the Greeks, you have Mythos and Logos, both equally important but very different ways of approaching truth, and each really only applicable to certain truths... go love your Plato for a while.

The idea of throwing religious beliefs (mythos)  into a debate about logically formed opinions (logos) is sort of void from the outset.


If you read the whole thread you would see i was using it as an example of how logic simply cannot validate everything, some beliefs go beyond logic

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Religion is for people who are scared of hell, Spirituality is for people who have been there

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Profile   Post #: 120
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