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Yet another political rant... - 5/17/2005 5:45:58 PM   
MrThorns


Posts: 919
Joined: 6/4/2004
Status: offline 		I still claim that I am an Independant, but the GOP is really beginning to push me fully into the Dem camp.

A few recent tidbits from various news agencies just really got under my skin. One, the Newsweek article that claimed that US interrogators at Guantanamo desicrated the Koran as a tactic for getting information from detainees. Okay, Newsweek screwed the pooch. It was a case of irresponsible journalism that had dire consequences. So, Newsweek takes responsibility for the article, retracts it, and makes a public formal apology.

The White House wants more than that. Excuse me??? Has the Bush administration taken responsibility for anything in the last 5 years? The recession was Clinton's fault. 9/11 was Clinton's fault. The war in Iraq is Saddam's fault for developing WMDs. The lack of evidence is the intelligence community's fault, etc etc ad nauseum. No apology for mistakes that had been made, no admission of "Hey, maybe we should have thought this out a bit more", but they have the balls to demand that Newsweek do more to make amends?

I understand that lives were lost as a direct result of Newsweek's actions, but again I direct you to the actions of the current administration. What amends have been made?

Secondly, this whole "Nuclear Option" business. Again, the GOP want's to change the laws that have governed this country, simply to satisfy their own agendas. There is a reason that we have checks and balances, but more and more, that centuries old buffer against tyranny is being eroded by partisan politics.

Does anyone else see this as a problem? Anyone else feel that laws are becoming more like inconvienences to our elected officials? Maybe I should just stop watching the news, turn on a lovely sitcom or reality show, get a lobotomy and enjoy the bliss that comes with ignorance.

Okay...done ranting.

~Thorns

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RE: Yet another political rant... - 5/17/2005 6:17:45 PM   
Hickory


Posts: 49
Joined: 2/9/2005
Status: offline
quote:

Does anyone else see this as a problem? Anyone else feel that laws are becoming more like inconvienences to our elected officials?


I hope LOTS of people see a problem with this. Unfortunately, ever since we allowed this country's presidential election to be decided by a panel of judges, rather than the people, we kinda get what we asked for. Until enough of us stand up it, it will only get worse.

As for Newsweek, at least the accounts I've heard and read, Newsweek may have been careless in not having confirming sources, but their big problem is the key source is recanting. In response, the government isn't actually saying they DIDN'T do those things, only that they weren't SUPPOSED to and that there's no RECORD that they did. It will be interesting to see the "anti-government press abuse" legislation that comes out of this. Meanwhile, we all get to take another one right up the ol' chimney, courtesy of Semantic Claus.

quote:

Maybe I should just stop watching the news, turn on a lovely sitcom or reality show, get a lobotomy and enjoy the bliss that comes with ignorance.


Yes, and become a member of the drooling class...

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RE: Yet another political rant... - 5/17/2005 8:49:58 PM   
kisshou


Posts: 2425
Joined: 2/11/2005
Status: offline 		Dear Mr. Thorns,

I was really interested to see someone write about politics. I see alot of problems and one I think about often is the deficit. Sometimes I think I am the only person who actually worries about how our country is so deeply in debt. What I have never understood is how US has a deficit and is in debt yet it still loans and gives money to other countries. To me this is so illogical. If I was personally in debt I would have no money to loan to anyone else, yet somehow our country as a whole is able to do this. Are we borrowing agains the future? If you could take a few minutes ofyour time to explain how this actually works or your feelings on this matter I would really appreciate it.

thank you

kiss

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RE: Yet another political rant... - 5/17/2005 9:13:38 PM   
Manawyddan


Posts: 701
Joined: 1/2/2005
From: Petaluma (Northern California)
Status: offline 		What's become clear to me ... and this is why I no longer engage in political discussions for the most part ... is that Dems and Reps don't just have differing economic policies. They have radically different perceptions of what counts as a crime, and what counts as evidence for a crime. I've seen little hope of connection over the gap at this point.

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RE: Yet another political rant... - 5/17/2005 9:23:28 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
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Status: offline 		Why don't you all just join us Greens?

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RE: Yet another political rant... - 5/17/2005 9:27:36 PM   
Ssilver


Posts: 53
Joined: 5/16/2005
Status: offline 		We're borrowing against our reputation and our ability to pay. Our debt is large, but so is our GDP. Also, unlike many other countries (Argentina, for example) a default on US government debt would have terrible consequences for the worldwide economy. That gives other nations a vested interest in keeping the US afloat.

That's a very simple version, though.

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RE: Yet another political rant... - 5/17/2005 9:58:59 PM   
onceburned


Posts: 2117
Joined: 1/4/2005
From: Iowa
Status: offline
quote:

What I have never understood is how US has a deficit and is in debt yet it still loans and gives money to other countries.


Soft power.

There is hard power, such as military force, aka threats. And there is soft power, which gets other nations to cooperate with you because they want the goodies. Its the carrot part of foreign policy. Foreign policy works best when there is a carrot -and- a stick.

But I agree with you. The national debt is worrisome and unfortunately politicians don't seem inclined to either cut spending or to raise taxes.

< Message edited by onceburned -- 5/17/2005 10:00:19 PM >

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RE: Yet another political rant... - 5/18/2005 1:55:02 AM   
UtopianRanger


Posts: 3251
Status: offline
quote:

I still claim that I am an Independant, but the GOP is really beginning to push me fully into the Dem camp.


With the exception of a few social aspects, there's very little difference between the two parties. And fiscally, there now seems to be no difference! The GOP might even be worse if you ask me.

I don't believe in redistribution of wealth, so I usually vote with my pocket book in mind. But the Republicans through what I would call ''fake tax breaks'' have played a dirty trick on their constituents and for the most part, haven't been caught yet - At least not by their constituents.

Because of this war and the homeland security thing, Bush and the Federal government have siphoned off much of the revenue stream that once trickled into the states. In an attempt to recapture some of the lost revenue, Cities and Counties have moved to enact local income taxes, gas taxes, and raise property taxes.

The Fed's have even cut off much of the grant money that would normally go for infrastructure improvements for things like local municipalities. So when an agency like the EPA mandates that all municipalities need be in compliance by a certain date for such things like the Federal Clean Water act, any upgrades and /or repairs that would normally be funded by grant monies are now instead funded by enormous increases in user fees and rate hikes. So consequently, for the average Joe, those minuscule tax cut's have been eaten up and then some.



- The Ranger

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RE: Yet another political rant... - 5/18/2005 9:10:32 AM   
happypervert


Posts: 2203
Joined: 5/11/2004
From: Scranton, PA
Status: offline 		I think the real difference in the parties can be found in their scandals.

Democrats have sex scandals -- Clinton had "bimbo eruptions" (or him erupting on bimbos), Kennedy had all his other gals though then the media didn't report it, and even Jimmy Carter had "lust in his heart".

The Republicans are all about abuse of power -- Watergate, Iran Contra, and now the current atmosphere of unjustified war in Iraq, Tom DeLay and that Schiavo mess. And for a party that claims to prefer smaller government, they sure seem to want to use government to cram their "morals" down everyone's throats.

I vote for sex scandals.

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RE: Yet another political rant... - 5/18/2005 10:36:26 AM   
kisshou


Posts: 2425
Joined: 2/11/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ssilver

We're borrowing against our reputation and our ability to pay. Our debt is large, but so is our GDP. Also, unlike many other countries (Argentina, for example) a default on US government debt would have terrible consequences for the worldwide economy. That gives other nations a vested interest in keeping the US afloat.

That's a very simple version, though.



Who are we borrowing from? That is what I really want to know. Are all the other nations in the world also in debt? It is so illogical when I think about it , it makes me nuts *grin*

I also agree with UtopianRanger, we have local taxes on everything. I live in Florida and due to the weak dollar , foreign investors are scooping up land and houses here at bargain rates. People who work and live here year round are being economically forced into sub standard housing due to this.

If there was a pay off the national debt initiative I would join it.

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RE: Yet another political rant... - 5/18/2005 11:07:42 AM   
Lepidoptera


Posts: 161
Joined: 4/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrThorns


Secondly, this whole "Nuclear Option" business. Again, the GOP want's to change the laws that have governed this country, simply to satisfy their own agendas. There is a reason that we have checks and balances, but more and more, that centuries old buffer against tyranny is being eroded by partisan politics.

~Thorns


These people are NOT real Republicans. Republicans would have never gotten into us into serious debt. Real Republicans would have NEVER had attempted to change several hundred years of tradition for 10 minutes of more power! Since when is being a party merely about advancing your party, even when in order to do so you change the very definition of WHAT YOUR PARTY IS? It does not make any sense.

Disgusting.

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RE: Yet another political rant... - 5/18/2005 10:00:28 PM   
BlkTallFullfig


Posts: 5585
Joined: 6/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrThorns
Does anyone else see this as a problem? Anyone else feel that laws are becoming more like inconvienences to our elected officials? Maybe I should just stop watching the news, turn on a lovely sitcom or reality show, get a lobotomy and enjoy the bliss that comes with ignorance.
~Thorns

Yes I do see the problem of which you speak, and feel completely powerless when it comes to "what to do", so holding breath, praying a lot more, and waiting for the next election again...

Well, that and I have begun watching a lot more sitcom, and just being more aware of my life/my fun.
I know that response is not helping AT All, whadda yah want, I'm just a new Domina... Don't stress me with that curious look!..M

< Message edited by BlkTallFullfig -- 5/18/2005 10:01:33 PM >

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RE: Yet another political rant... - 5/18/2005 10:05:19 PM   
BlkTallFullfig


Posts: 5585
Joined: 6/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: onceburned
quote:

What I have never understood is how US has a deficit and is in debt yet it still loans and gives money to other countries.

Soft power.
There is hard power, such as military force, aka threats. And there is soft power, which gets other nations to cooperate with you because they want the goodies. Its the carrot part of foreign policy. Foreign policy works best when there is a carrot -and- a stick.

That's the cutest way I've ever seen that put... M

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""Touching was, and still is, and will always be, the true revolution" Nikki Giovanni

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RE: Yet another political rant... - 5/18/2005 11:02:50 PM   
MadameDahlia


Posts: 2021
Joined: 8/11/2004
From: SoCal aka Hell
Status: offline 		http://www.mackwhite.com/dictator.html

Bush and Dictatorship...

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RE: Yet another political rant... - 5/18/2005 11:07:24 PM   
BlkTallFullfig


Posts: 5585
Joined: 6/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MadameDahlia
http://www.mackwhite.com/dictator.html
Bush and Dictatorship...

Oh My!!! Funny, than sad... Thanks for the link MadameDahlia.. M

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RE: Yet another political rant... - 5/18/2005 11:14:05 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		Was Ronald Reagan a "real Republican"?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lepidoptera

These people are NOT real Republicans. Republicans would have never gotten into us into serious debt.


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RE: Yet another political rant... - 5/18/2005 11:20:43 PM   
MadameDahlia


Posts: 2021
Joined: 8/11/2004
From: SoCal aka Hell
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BlkTallFullfig

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadameDahlia
http://www.mackwhite.com/dictator.html
Bush and Dictatorship...

Oh My!!! Funny, than sad... Thanks for the link MadameDahlia.. M


You're welcome. And.... my condolences. My father sent me the link to that one. He um... doesn't fancy Bush much.

- M.D.

_____________________________

Insanity -- a perfectly rational adjustment to an insane world.
--R. D. Laing

"Oh, but if I went 'round sayin' I was Emperor, just because some moistened bint lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away."

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RE: Yet another political rant... - 5/19/2005 8:02:17 AM   
RiotGirl


Posts: 3149
Status: offline 		Oh boy oh boy oh boy Politics = ) For the first time in days i've read every post in the thread!

First off our country is nuts. Secondly how can anyone realled expect our politicians to keep on the straight and narrow with all that power at their finger tips? i've no "party"

But i believe in Bush, and i believe in the war. War makes money as well for that national debt, you know? i believe in our troops over there (and if you've read any of my posts) my brother served as well as 2 childhood friends. AND how can we not believe in something our troops are fighting for? When you fight for something if you dont believe and your support doesnt believe, you tend to lose faith. Anyone ever heard that the person with the most faith in what they are fighting for usually wins? (because they fight the hardest?)

So what if its for oil. We ar a super power. We can do that.
So what if its to convert the middle east to our way of gov. We can do that.

Its called survival of the fitest.

Atleast we have ONE president who isnt afraid to stand and fight. Would we all just rather that we sit and take it? Our country would of been outraged if we didnt go to war. ::rolls eyes::

What i dont believe in is the way our government is using the threat of terrorism to restrict the bits of freedom we have left. i dont believe in the useless way our gov spends money on programs that are ridiculous. i dont believe in this Terry thing. Honestly and really, it completely proves my point about whats wrong with our "justice" system. Suicide is illegal and murder is illegal. Un natural death is illegal, but our government sanctioned it this time. The justice system and those that enforce it dont hold up their own laws (and never have). i will not rant about it (repeat 3 times to your self and move on)

And how can you not be a "real" republican?


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RE: Yet another political rant... - 5/19/2005 9:12:55 AM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		By that logic, we'd have to believe in the justice of every military action that our government ever initiates. That sounds like 1984.

quote:

ORIGINAL: RiotGirl

But i believe in Bush, and i believe in the war. War makes money as well for that national debt, you know? i believe in our troops over there (and if you've read any of my posts) my brother served as well as 2 childhood friends. AND how can we not believe in something our troops are fighting for? When you fight for something if you dont believe and your support doesnt believe, you tend to lose faith. Anyone ever heard that the person with the most faith in what they are fighting for usually wins? (because they fight the hardest?)


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RE: Yet another political rant... - 5/19/2005 9:29:56 AM   
onceburned


Posts: 2117
Joined: 1/4/2005
From: Iowa
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RiotGirl
War makes money as well for that national debt, you know?


War doesn't make money. It may stimulate the economy but any government spending will do that. And unlike spending money on increasing access to health care, or education or transportation etc there is little multiplier effect. Military spending is a dead end.

And the massive increase in the national debt will haunt the U.S. for years to come. We already spend 12% of the national budget ($321 Billion) simply for interest on the national debt. Compare that to the $15 Billion spent on NASA. We could have colony on Mars with the money we spend in just one year of debt service.

quote:

i believe in our troops over there


So do I and I am very sorry that their lives have been jeopardized needlessly.

quote:

AND how can we not believe in something our troops are fighting for?


Because Bush lied. There was no reason to go to war against Iraq except to provide a test of the "Bush Doctrine". Remember that? He seems to have abandoned mentioning it. Wars should not be started unless there is a extremely good reason to go to war, and yes, everyone should be able to get behind the effort. Unfortunately, Bush behaved irresponsibly - and our troops are paying the price.

quote:

So what if its for oil. We ar a super power. We can do that.
So what if its to convert the middle east to our way of gov. We can do that.


With an attitude like that is it any wonder that so much of the world hates us?

BTW, Iraq has shown that we can *not* simply throw our weight around and get whatever we want. The war in Iraq should be a wake up call to Americans that we need to behave more responsibly on the world stage.

quote:

Our country would of been outraged if we didnt go to war. ::rolls eyes::


Oh that is silly. Iraq posed no threat to America. The CIA, a year before the invasion, reported that Saddam had no hostile intentions towards the U.S.

I think Americans should be outraged that Bush has abandoned the War on Terror for an optional war against a country which wasn't even threatening us. A year before the invasion of Iraq the CIA and the Pentagon both agreed they knew where Abu Musab al-Zarqawi was in Jordan and we had the means to kill him. But the White House decided that a strike inside Jordan would interfere with the planned invasion of Iraq. So now this al-Qaeda leader is running around Iraq directing the insurgents to blow up our troops. Thanks Bush!

< Message edited by onceburned -- 5/19/2005 9:32:51 AM >

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