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RE: Yet another political rant... - 5/19/2005 1:28:24 PM

fourpeas

Posts: 243
Joined: 5/6/2005
Status: offline

I agree... living in the NYC area I am ashamed that we ran away from the true war on extremist terrorists and ran straight into a war with a country that had absolutely nothing to do with it, thus spurring more hatred for the US in Islamic countries where terrorists are trained and told what to do.

I also want to say that I find it really hilarious how people who never saw the twin towers, or never knew what it is like to know every day that you live in the #1 site in the US for terrorism, are usually all about the "war"... NYC *NEVER* got the money it was promised after 9/11, and the economy and job market *still* hasn't recovered in our area.... *arrrrrrrr insert ranting and raving here*

Sometimes living near this area I feel that there is literally a target above all of our heads and it is not that great of a feeling I gotta say...

I don't think it's good when *any* human being is being killed, for any cause, period. The sooner there is peace in Iraq, the sooner there will be more peace and civility in our own country as well.

(in reply to onceburned)

Post #: 21

RE: Yet another political rant... - 5/19/2005 1:47:29 PM

MrThorns

Posts: 919
Joined: 6/4/2004
Status: offline

Wow... so many ways to go with this one. Economics, balance of power, war in Iraq, wardrobe choices of past and present dictators, invitation to join the Greens...wow...so much diverse information for me to get in a twist over.
But first, my addition to some of the humor that has been presented so far:

www.piratesandemperors.com

Lam...
Yanno, I think I would make a damned good Green, but I think the frustration of not seeing my party's candidate as having a realistic chance for being elected would get the better of me. I think that some of our social problems could be resolved with a better developed sense for the environment. (This is an emerging theory here, so please bear with me through this)
but the basic principle of this theory is that if people are willing to shit on their own dining room table, what makes you think they are going to be considerate for your property? I'll add more to the theory as it develops, but I thought this was a fairly good analogy to get started with.

Ssilver...

You are absolutely right. We are in debt, way beyond anything we could have imagined. I wonder who calls the US government several times a day to remind them that their bill is overdue. Wouldn't that be fun? Getting every collecting agent in the country to call the Treasury Department Officials...at their homes...at dinner.. to inform them that their wages will be garnished if the US doesnt pay off this debt?
Problem is that the US doesnt produce anything anymore. We are a service based economy that out sources that service to be provided by people in other countries that will work for less money than a US citizen. I called my Tech Support Center regarding a question about my modem...and I was connected to an office in Pakistan. But the modem said it was made in the US!!! Gah! We import more than we export and we spend more than we earn. It's a recipe for bankruptcy...but of course, those laws are being changed so that if an individual finds themselves in financial ruin, they will no longer be protected from their creditors. (But I'll save that for another rant)

happy pervert..

I never noticed that before...lol..but you're absolutely correct. More sex scandals!

Lepidoptera...

I don't think there are any Democrats or Republicans left. It's an empty title that used to define where you prefered the balance of power to sit with. Strong Central government voted on by the people, or decentralized government where the people's desires are represented by an elected official. Now we have Progressives and Neocons, but even those labels aren't entirely accurate. Maybe we need new party names that are more decriptive:

The We will tax you to pay for programs to protect the environment, but sometimes we are way too touchy-feely and emotional about certain issues that we make occasional judgement errors Party.

or

The We won't tax you but we will cut all of your social programs because people are responsible for their own actions unless they say something offensive to God or the government then it's our responsibility to shut them up Party.

Might be a bit of a mouthful...but I'm sure it will catch on by the next election.

BlkTallFullfig...

I've taken to watching Jerry Springer, as watching other people's misery makes me realize just how wonderful my life is.
And I'll look just as curious as I wanna...because I'm Dom, hear me roar.

Riotgirl...

I can think of a lot of people who aren't afraid to stand and fight, but the one's I've seen do it in the same manner Bush has, are usually drunk as a skunk and swinging a broken beer bottle saying, "Yer lookin' at mah girl!".
You are right, we are a super power, but as the late, great Ben Parker said to Spiderman, "With great power, comes great responsibility." We have yet to display some form of responsibility when it comes to Iraq. Afghanistan? I'm with ya all the way. Those Taliban bastards attacked us and should pay dearly....so...why are we being diverted into Iraq? Doesn't make sense to me.

onceburned...

Durned tootin'

Thanks to everyone who has posted here..and for keeping it clean. I look forward to reading more.

~Thorns

_____________________________

~"Do you know what the chain of command is? Its the chain I beat ya with when ya don't follow my command."

"My inner child is a mean little fucker"

(in reply to onceburned)

Post #: 22

RE: Yet another political rant... - 5/19/2005 3:01:54 PM

kisshou

Posts: 2425
Joined: 2/11/2005
Status: offline

MrThorns,

http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/faq.html

You got me thinking so much about all this that I looked it up. The above webpage explains all about the national debt on one easy to understand page. It is chilling. I think I focus so much on the debt because money = power when it comes to countries. I want our country to remain strong and powerful and this debt erodes that power daily.

I completely agree with you about our economy being service based, this is especially true where I reside.

Do you think that US based manufacturers should be given tax breaks so they can compete with the lower wages of other countries?

Is there a difference between a moral and a political issue? I thought Bush won the election based upon how his moral values over a few specific issues were portrayed and not really on his political or fiscal agenda.

(in reply to MrThorns)

Post #: 23

RE: Yet another political rant... - 5/19/2005 3:07:20 PM

darkinshadows

Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline

My God is of Bible blood with pointed ears
Victorious, victorious steel
Can your spending kneel?
Marching forward hypocritic
And hypnotic computers
You depend on our protection
Yet you feed us lies from the tablecloth

Kneeling roses
Disappearing into Moses' dry mouth
Breaking into Fort Knox
Stealing our intentions
Every city, gripped in oil
Crying freedom!
Handed to obsoletion
Still you feed us lies from the tablecloth

Why don't presidents fight the war?
Why do they always send the poor?
They always send the poor!
They always send the poor!

D.Malakian & S.Tankian

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to MrThorns)

Post #: 24

RE: Yet another political rant... - 5/19/2005 3:25:16 PM

Lordandmaster

Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline

Someone else knows about Pirates & Emperors! I thought it was hilarious the first time I saw it.

Yeah, for now at least, Green candidates don't have much of a chance of getting elected. But I wouldn't be too surprised to see a Green congressman one day soon. And in fifty years everyone will know we were right.

Anyway, I'm not sure I follow your theory. If people are willing to shit on OUR dining-room table (not THEIR dining-room table), my strategy would be to get them to stop.

Lam

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrThorns

www.piratesandemperors.com

Lam...
Yanno, I think I would make a damned good Green, but I think the frustration of not seeing my party's candidate as having a realistic chance for being elected would get the better of me. I think that some of our social problems could be resolved with a better developed sense for the environment. (This is an emerging theory here, so please bear with me through this)
but the basic principle of this theory is that if people are willing to shit on their own dining room table, what makes you think they are going to be considerate for your property? I'll add more to the theory as it develops, but I thought this was a fairly good analogy to get started with.

(in reply to MrThorns)

Post #: 25

RE: Yet another political rant... - 5/19/2005 4:42:56 PM

MrThorns

Posts: 919
Joined: 6/4/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kisshou

Do you think that US based manufacturers should be given tax breaks so they can compete with the lower wages of other countries?

Is there a difference between a moral and a political issue? I thought Bush won the election based upon how his moral values over a few specific issues were portrayed and not really on his political or fiscal agenda.

In my opinion, yes. Manufacturers should be given some kind of incentive to keep their businesses in the US and employ US citizens. That incentive could be any number of things. Tax breaks, free/semi-free medical coverage for the company's employees in order to relieve the company of the burden of having to pay for medical care, bonus payments to companies that have been able to maintain good employee retention, supplementing the income that employers pay unskilled labor. (Example: If the job would normally be a minimum wage type job, and the company could outsource the work overseas for less than minimum wage, perhaps the company pays $2.75/hr and the government pays $2.75/hr. The work stays in the country, the government is able to collect tax revenues, and the company is able to cut it's employee costs.) I'm sure there are probably several flaws with this idea, but it's a work in progress.

I believe there should be a difference between moral and political issues, but unfortunately, people become emotionally attached to their values (for obvious reasons) and find it hard to keep personal values out of their politics. I believe a true leader is someone that can see a situation for what it really is and act without bringing their personal belief system into it. We have a collective belief system in the US and it is based in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. Prohibition is an excellent example of how personal beliefs became intertwined with our laws...and the result was disasterous.

~Thorns

< Message edited by MrThorns -- 5/19/2005 4:43:47 PM >

_____________________________

~"Do you know what the chain of command is? Its the chain I beat ya with when ya don't follow my command."

"My inner child is a mean little fucker"

(in reply to kisshou)

Post #: 26

RE: Yet another political rant... - 5/19/2005 5:08:23 PM

Lordandmaster

Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline

Yeah, and you want to know another govt. program that would be a godsend for American corporations? National health insurance. Ford and GM would be saved overnight. Oh, but wait, I thought national health insurance was a left-wing idea...

(in reply to MrThorns)

Post #: 27

RE: Yet another political rant... - 5/19/2005 5:21:48 PM

MadameDahlia

Posts: 2021
Joined: 8/11/2004
From: SoCal aka Hell
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: onceburned

quote:

ORIGINAL: RiotGirl
War makes money as well for that national debt, you know?

War doesn't make money. It may stimulate the economy but any government spending will do that. And unlike spending money on increasing access to health care, or education or transportation etc there is little multiplier effect. Military spending is a dead end.

And the massive increase in the national debt will haunt the U.S. for years to come. We already spend 12% of the national budget ($321 Billion) simply for interest on the national debt. Compare that to the $15 Billion spent on NASA. We could have colony on Mars with the money we spend in just one year of debt service.

quote:

i believe in our troops over there

So do I and I am very sorry that their lives have been jeopardized needlessly.

quote:

AND how can we not believe in something our troops are fighting for?

Because Bush lied. There was no reason to go to war against Iraq except to provide a test of the "Bush Doctrine". Remember that? He seems to have abandoned mentioning it. Wars should not be started unless there is a extremely good reason to go to war, and yes, everyone should be able to get behind the effort. Unfortunately, Bush behaved irresponsibly - and our troops are paying the price.

quote:

So what if its for oil. We ar a super power. We can do that.
So what if its to convert the middle east to our way of gov. We can do that.

With an attitude like that is it any wonder that so much of the world hates us?

BTW, Iraq has shown that we can *not* simply throw our weight around and get whatever we want. The war in Iraq should be a wake up call to Americans that we need to behave more responsibly on the world stage.

quote:

Our country would of been outraged if we didnt go to war. ::rolls eyes::

Oh that is silly. Iraq posed no threat to America. The CIA, a year before the invasion, reported that Saddam had no hostile intentions towards the U.S.

I think Americans should be outraged that Bush has abandoned the War on Terror for an optional war against a country which wasn't even threatening us. A year before the invasion of Iraq the CIA and the Pentagon both agreed they knew where Abu Musab al-Zarqawi was in Jordan and we had the means to kill him. But the White House decided that a strike inside Jordan would interfere with the planned invasion of Iraq. So now this al-Qaeda leader is running around Iraq directing the insurgents to blow up our troops. Thanks Bush!

And thank you for putting it into perspective so eloquently...

_____________________________

Insanity -- a perfectly rational adjustment to an insane world.
--R. D. Laing

"Oh, but if I went 'round sayin' I was Emperor, just because some moistened bint lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away."

(in reply to onceburned)

Post #: 28

RE: Yet another political rant... - 5/19/2005 7:10:33 PM

BlkTallFullfig

Posts: 5585
Joined: 6/25/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: dark~angel
Why don't presidents fight the war?
Why do they always send the poor?
They always send the poor!
They always send the poor! [/size] [/font]
D.Malakian & S.Tankian
Angel

THAT WAS BEAUTIFUL... And incredibly sad... M

_____________________________

a.k.a. SexyBossyBBW
""Touching was, and still is, and will always be, the true revolution" Nikki Giovanni

(in reply to darkinshadows)

Post #: 29

RE: Yet another political rant... - 5/20/2005 1:28:34 AM

UtopianRanger

Posts: 3251
Status: offline

quote:

Is there a difference between a moral and a political issue? I thought Bush won the election based upon how his moral values over a few specific issues were portrayed and not really on his political or fiscal agenda.

Whether it be ''Neocons'', ''Rinos'' or whatever other term one may wish to apply to them, we need to keep in mind that they are both brilliant and highly manipulative people.

They've taken advantage of what they consider to be a weak and vulnerable part of the bulk of American voters, which is their religious views.

By infusing Bush with a sort of ''Divinity'' and having the media exploit the Gay marriage issue right before the election, they set up a competing loyalty scenario that brought out many of the ''Fire and Brimstone'' type thinkers that normally always withdraw from politics. It's my feeling that this is what put Bush over the top.

As far as the original poster who may have thought that ''going to war for oil'' wasn't that bad of an idea :

Let me remind you that we've slapped down one very greedy dictator, that had control of the world's second largest oil reserves, but in one fell swoop handed it over to entities that are ten times as greedy.

At least the dictator put the oil on the market to sell, while the greedy oil companies have taken the oil off the market and instructed their cronies to fabricate one hell of a tall tale that says we're running out.

Try to keep your nationalistic instincts in check. Pick up a copy of the Wall Street Journal and follow the money trail.

I'll gladly forget all about the Monroe Doctrine and the false war on terror, because consumer's and financial market's from the western hemisphere will be much better off if Hugo Chavez and Saddam keep the oil.

- The Ranger

< Message edited by UtopianRanger -- 5/20/2005 2:13:07 AM >

(in reply to kisshou)

Post #: 30

RE: Yet another political rant... - 5/20/2005 10:41:43 AM

MadameDahlia

Posts: 2021
Joined: 8/11/2004
From: SoCal aka Hell
Status: offline

I have just one word for all the Bush supporters... for all those who think that this war is a good idea... for those who believe we're actually doing something for those people over there...

ENLIST

_____________________________

Insanity -- a perfectly rational adjustment to an insane world.
--R. D. Laing

"Oh, but if I went 'round sayin' I was Emperor, just because some moistened bint lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away."

(in reply to UtopianRanger)

Post #: 31

RE: Yet another political rant... - 5/20/2005 12:25:21 PM

UtopianRanger

Posts: 3251
Status: offline

No offense to you Madame as I've seen you make some very fine post's, but if you really want to shift the paradigm it would be a good idea to actually dissuade folks from joining the military, rather than encouraging them. Even if you don't agree with Bush supporters, I have a good feeling you really don't want to see them exposed to depleted uranium.....

Remember, without the military they have no instrument for war.

- The Ranger

(in reply to MadameDahlia)

Post #: 32

RE: Yet another political rant... - 5/20/2005 1:39:48 PM

cellogrrlMK

Posts: 672
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kisshou

Who are we borrowing from? That is what I really want to know.

The Peoples' Republic of China... we owe them beaucoup bucks... really really scary to me!

(in reply to kisshou)

Post #: 33

RE: Yet another political rant... - 5/20/2005 1:47:34 PM

cellogrrlMK

Posts: 672
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: UtopianRanger

No offense to you Madame as I've seen you make some very fine post's, but if you really want to shift the paradigm it would be a good idea to actually dissuade folks from joining the military, rather than encouraging them. Even if you don't agree with Bush supporters, I have a good feeling you really don't want to see them exposed to depleted uranium.....

Remember, without the military they have no instrument for war.

I heard today that the Army took the day off from recruiting efforts; apparently they haven't been so successful lately and their failure to get people to enlist is causing them to be rude and nasty to their intended victims. I hope they continue to have reasons to take the day off!

(in reply to UtopianRanger)

Post #: 34

RE: Yet another political rant... - 5/20/2005 1:57:51 PM

BlkTallFullfig

Posts: 5585
Joined: 6/25/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadameDahlia
I have just one word for all the Bush supporters... for all those who think that this war is a good idea... for those who believe we're actually doing something for those people over there...
ENLIST

I feel exactly the same... I've always wondered how the mothers of the fallen soldiers feel, how okay they are/were with going to war. I work with women who support the war in Iraq, and the only way I'd respect their view is if they had children whose lives they were willing to sacrifice for these ??principles..
It's just too easy to support something being done far away that doesn't affect you or anyone you love.. M

_____________________________

a.k.a. SexyBossyBBW
""Touching was, and still is, and will always be, the true revolution" Nikki Giovanni

(in reply to MadameDahlia)

Post #: 35

RE: Yet another political rant... - 5/20/2005 5:10:56 PM

MadameDahlia

Posts: 2021
Joined: 8/11/2004
From: SoCal aka Hell
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: UtopianRanger

No offense to you Madame as I've seen you make some very fine post's, but if you really want to shift the paradigm it would be a good idea to actually dissuade folks from joining the military, rather than encouraging them. Even if you don't agree with Bush supporters, I have a good feeling you really don't want to see them exposed to depleted uranium.....

Remember, without the military they have no instrument for war.

- The Ranger

I want to see the hardcore supporters put their money where their mouths are. I want them to witness it first hand. I want them to know the horrors of war in graphic detail. I want them to see what the bombs and guns are doing to those who are already over there. I want them to see the splattered brains and blood across dry, hot sands. I want those images burned into their minds. And then I want them to look me in the eye and tell me that fighting and dying for oil is okay. I want them to tell me that the soldiers are dying for a worthwhile cause.

Yes. I would very much like them to enlist. If they want to fight for the cause... they should. Let that be what opens their eyes...

_____________________________

Insanity -- a perfectly rational adjustment to an insane world.
--R. D. Laing

"Oh, but if I went 'round sayin' I was Emperor, just because some moistened bint lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away."

(in reply to UtopianRanger)

Post #: 36

RE: Yet another political rant... - 5/21/2005 9:59:15 AM

MrThorns

Posts: 919
Joined: 6/4/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: UtopianRanger

...but if you really want to shift the paradigm it would be a good idea to actually dissuade folks from joining the military, rather than encouraging them.

Remember, without the military they have no instrument for war.

- The Ranger

Even though I really understand where you are coming from on this, I couldn't disagree more.

There will always be a military and that military will be used if the powers that be decide to use it. When people don't enlist in the military, all it truly accomplishes is to place a greater burden on the soldiers who are already in harms way. If the government hasn't fulfilled its mission and there are no more soldiers available, well...there's always the draft.

As I have mentioned in other posts, I believe government service should be mandatory. Either 2 years military service, or 2 years of generalized civil service. If you dont serve, you can't vote or run for a public office. Don't you think our elected officials would put more thought into their decisions if they actually knew the human costs for their actions? Or how their perspective might be changed after working for 2 years in a homeless shelter? (Also, no special treatment for people, just because their daddy went to Yale, or is the Director of the CIA)

Unfortunately, the government will always find an instrument for war. Not enlisting simply increases the work load for the soldiers already in the fight.

~Thorns

_____________________________

~"Do you know what the chain of command is? Its the chain I beat ya with when ya don't follow my command."

"My inner child is a mean little fucker"

(in reply to UtopianRanger)

Post #: 37

RE: Yet another political rant... - 5/21/2005 10:12:41 AM

darkinshadows

Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline

quote:

As I have mentioned in other posts, I believe government service should be mandatory. Either 2 years military service, or 2 years of generalized civil service. If you dont serve, you can't vote or run for a public office. Don't you think our elected officials would put more thought into their decisions if they actually knew the human costs for their actions? Or how their perspective might be changed after working for 2 years in a homeless shelter? (Also, no special treatment for people, just because their daddy went to Yale, or is the Director of the CIA)

Mr Thorns - usually I agree wholeheartedly with you - but on this I disagree.

What about the people who are against war? Or taking anothers life? Are you saying that because of their belief, they must serve for two years? That to not do so, would mean they loose their right to vote - something that america is 'supposedly' fighting other countires to try and install these rights? Thats something that contadicts itself. Sounds a bit henry ford to me.

Peace and Love

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to MrThorns)

Post #: 38

RE: Yet another political rant... - 5/21/2005 10:23:32 AM

MrThorns

Posts: 919
Joined: 6/4/2004
Status: offline

Dark~Angel,

If someone is opposed to war, they don't have to join the military. There is civil service. Working in a nursing home, homeless shelter, hospital, etc. Providing a service for the colelctive good of the nation without the potential for violence that may come with military service.
Perhaps restricting the right to vote is excessive, but maybe some other restriction or benefit? Free healthcare for people who have served? Social security benefits? Additional money for retirement? Money for school?

Perhaps those incentives/restrictions would be more in line with the constitution.

~Thorns

_____________________________

~"Do you know what the chain of command is? Its the chain I beat ya with when ya don't follow my command."

"My inner child is a mean little fucker"

(in reply to darkinshadows)

Post #: 39

RE: Yet another political rant... - 5/21/2005 11:31:14 AM

darkinshadows

Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline

Whilst I am not against the 'do two years of civil service' suggestion... it really isn't something that should be forced. America prides itself on being a 'free country'... and to force anyone to do anything goes against what america often fights for. Possibly - yes, offer people that to do such a thing with pay incentive(ok - so that is materialistic, but then - people have to live and may already have children or families to support ie - oldest siblings etc).. and of course, certification that such service has been done to aid with job security after completion would be a good incentive to, not to mention aiding the country by offering 'in house' training.

America aside - In the UK - you couldn't take away health benifits and benififts or schools payments as these are already 'paid for' within our tax system - so for our country, those incentives would be null and void.

But military service is a personal thing, and not something to be forced. For Demons best friend, his Mother is south African , His father British - living in south africa at a time where he was supposed to do his commision - he refused and had to escape his home because he didn't agree with what the army did to the black peoples of south africa - the suggestion that everyone should do military service is not always that cut and dried.

Peace and Love

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to MrThorns)

Post #: 40

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