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RE: Yet another political rant... - 5/21/2005 12:00:13 PM

onceburned

Posts: 2117
Joined: 1/4/2005
From: Iowa
Status: offline

quote:

Either 2 years military service, or 2 years of generalized civil service.

I don't think the military would like this idea for two reasons. First, they don't need so many recruits. Second, because they believe that by the time they are trained, the recruits would be eyeing the door. Even in the new 15 month active duty service contract, an individual is committing to several extra years in the National Guard or in the Reserves.

And I don't think that politically mandatory national service is feasible since such a major increase in federal spending would require tax increases - which aren't going to happen.

(in reply to MrThorns)

Post #: 41

RE: Yet another political rant... - 5/21/2005 3:45:20 PM

UtopianRanger

Posts: 3251
Status: offline

quote:

If the government hasn't fulfilled its mission and there are no more soldiers available, well...there's always the draft.

You really do see where I'm going.....

My hope is exactly that they voluntarily stop enlisting and the Neocon's take the bait and hatch a plan to enact the draft.

I 'll be foaming at the mouth waiting to hear their arguments on why we need more troops to attack Iran or Syria. The people are getting smarter every day. They are!

If they think they had problems in Vietnam, hang around for a while and wait and see what happens. My prediction is that you will see change from both ends of spectrum like you've never ever seen before. And they won't be able to do much about it.

I'm betting all the cash that they'll find another way, and not take the bait.

- The Ranger

(in reply to MrThorns)

Post #: 42

RE: Yet another political rant... - 5/22/2005 6:12:07 AM

kisshou

Posts: 2425
Joined: 2/11/2005
Status: offline

UtopianRanger,

I don't see where you are going. Would you please elaborate? Do you think our country needs no military at all? Are you saying if a draft is enacted, people will protest thus ending the military in the US? By the term Neocon, do you mean Neo conservative and could you please define that for me. Who are you referring to when you say 'they".

thanks in advance

kiss

(in reply to UtopianRanger)

Post #: 43

RE: Yet another political rant... - 5/22/2005 7:59:16 AM

Lordandmaster

Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline

I thought what he said was pretty clear. What part don't you understand?

(in reply to kisshou)

Post #: 44

RE: Yet another political rant... - 5/22/2005 12:14:47 PM

MrThorns

Posts: 919
Joined: 6/4/2004
Status: offline

kisshou,

My interpretation of Ranger's statement was that if people stop enlisting in the military, there will be no one left to fight.

If there is no one left to fight, the government, if it decides to continue its present course of action, will have to institute a draft.

The American people, most likely won't stand for a draft, and may protest and resist in such a way as to make the protests against the Viet Nam war seem insignificant. Perhaps to go as far as a full on rebellion against the state.

That's my understanding of what Ranger had to say. I'm sure that if I am wrong in my interpretation, he will enlighten me.

~Thorns

_____________________________

~"Do you know what the chain of command is? Its the chain I beat ya with when ya don't follow my command."

"My inner child is a mean little fucker"

(in reply to kisshou)

Post #: 45

RE: Yet another political rant... - 5/22/2005 6:46:59 PM

kisshou

Posts: 2425
Joined: 2/11/2005
Status: offline

MrThorns,

thank you so much for explaining. I have seen the Vietnam war era portrayed in the movies, there seemed to be alot of unrest. I wonder if someone who lived through it feels the same way about the military/war now as they did back then. Now of course I am imagining the US with no Army, Navy, Air Force or Marines. There will be no one left to fight but also no one left to defend. I would think if faced with a choice between our country having no military at all or having a military by instituting a draft. People will go for the draft. At least a draft is impartial and fair.

kiss

(in reply to MrThorns)

Post #: 46

RE: Yet another political rant... - 5/22/2005 9:15:21 PM

onceburned

Posts: 2117
Joined: 1/4/2005
From: Iowa
Status: offline

quote:

At least a draft is impartial and fair.

Oh no it wasn't - not the draft we had between 1949 to 1973!

quote:

By the time of the Vietnam War, the answer was rather clear - the children of the privileged classes could avoid military service if they wished. As Vietnam became both bloody and controversial, large numbers of them wished exactly that. The draft laws and regulations aided their mission. Extensive physical disability standards provided ways for otherwise healthy young men to be physically disqualified, often with the help of supportive family doctors. Extensive occupational deferments provided a way to avoid military service, as did enrollment in higher education, which encouraged some students to pursue a decade-long ramble through undergraduate and graduate institutions.

http://news.mainetoday.com/war/news/040411militarydraf.shtml

< Message edited by onceburned -- 5/22/2005 9:18:00 PM >

(in reply to kisshou)

Post #: 47

RE: Yet another political rant... - 5/22/2005 9:18:32 PM

Lordandmaster

Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline

But who ever said that those are the only two choices? You're presenting a false set of alternatives.

Besides, anyone who was alive during the Vietnam War knows that the draft was not impartial or fair.

Lam

quote:

ORIGINAL: kisshou

I would think if faced with a choice between our country having no military at all or having a military by instituting a draft. People will go for the draft. At least a draft is impartial and fair.

(in reply to kisshou)

Post #: 48

RE: Yet another political rant... - 5/23/2005 1:38:31 AM

MsMacComb

Posts: 808
Joined: 3/30/2005
From: My Mothers womb.
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RiotGirl

Oh boy oh boy oh boy Politics = ) For the first time in days i've read every post in the thread!

First off our country is nuts. Secondly how can anyone realled expect our politicians to keep on the straight and narrow with all that power at their finger tips? i've no "party"

But i believe in Bush, and i believe in the war. War makes money as well for that national debt, you know? i believe in our troops over there (and if you've read any of my posts) my brother served as well as 2 childhood friends. AND how can we not believe in something our troops are fighting for? When you fight for something if you dont believe and your support doesnt believe, you tend to lose faith. Anyone ever heard that the person with the most faith in what they are fighting for usually wins? (because they fight the hardest?)

So what if its for oil. We ar a super power. We can do that.
So what if its to convert the middle east to our way of gov. We can do that.

Its called survival of the fitest.

Atleast we have ONE president who isnt afraid to stand and fight. Would we all just rather that we sit and take it? Our country would of been outraged if we didnt go to war. ::rolls eyes::

What i dont believe in is the way our government is using the threat of terrorism to restrict the bits of freedom we have left. i dont believe in the useless way our gov spends money on programs that are ridiculous. i dont believe in this Terry thing. Honestly and really, it completely proves my point about whats wrong with our "justice" system. Suicide is illegal and murder is illegal. Un natural death is illegal, but our government sanctioned it this time. The justice system and those that enforce it dont hold up their own laws (and never have). i will not rant about it (repeat 3 times to your self and move on)

And how can you not be a "real" republican?

Wow. As a Republican (who voted for Kerry) I would just like to mention as a disclaimer that some of us (Pubs) watch news, real news, not Fox and rehydrate with a substance besides Kool-Aid.

_____________________________

Not looking for anyone for anything, any time.

(in reply to RiotGirl)

Post #: 49

RE: Yet another political rant... - 5/23/2005 1:51:34 AM

UtopianRanger

Posts: 3251
Status: offline

Before I make any of the good people here mad at me, because they think I'm a complete liberal and against the military, let me just tell you that I spent four years in the US Marines during the back end of the Iran hostage crisis. And I have nothing but good words and feelings for my fellow Marines, Soldiers, Airmen, and Navy Personnel.

It makes me sick to my stomach, everyday, when I pick up my copy of the Oregonian newspaper and find that many more Americans have died.
What's even worse, is when I read that one of those members, who fought so gallantly, has now been discharged and is living in a homeless shelter somewhere. Especially when their brethren from Halliburton Army is being paid between 100 - 200 k on the backs of the tax payers.

Mr.Thorns has my line of thinking pegged, exactly.

I don't want to sell anyone short, but I think that by the time the everyday, honest hardworking American comes home after their 8-12 hr work day, they just barely have enough time to mix a drink, pop open a beer and sit down and watch Monday night football, their favorite ''Reality'' show or Desperate Housewives. They have very little time to really find out what's going on in the world around them. And Dan Rather, Peter Jennings and the Corporate media just don't cut the mustard.

As Mr.Thorn's put it : I wanna see the people in this country get so angry and mad that they'll actually start to really pay attention. I think a draft would possibly do it. It will open up many doors in ways that I think will promote change.

As far as the Military goes, we will always have and need one, but to be perfectly honest, I'd bet a nickel against donut that even the youngest member that participates in these forums will never in their lifetime, see a invading foreign army touch this soil - With of course the exception of the one that's currently invading us on our Southern border ; }

- The Ranger

< Message edited by UtopianRanger -- 5/23/2005 3:11:05 AM >

(in reply to kisshou)

Post #: 50

RE: Yet another political rant... - 5/23/2005 5:45:49 AM

kisshou

Posts: 2425
Joined: 2/11/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

But who ever said that those are the only two choices? You're presenting a false set of alternatives.

Besides, anyone who was alive during the Vietnam War knows that the draft was not impartial or fair.

Lam

quote:

ORIGINAL: kisshou

I would think if faced with a choice between our country having no military at all or having a military by instituting a draft. People will go for the draft. At least a draft is impartial and fair.

I will amend that to: a draft is theoretically impartial and fair. If no one enlists and there is no draft enacted what other alternatives are there?

respectfullly,
kiss

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 51

RE: Yet another political rant... - 5/23/2005 6:05:33 AM

pantera

Posts: 210
Joined: 1/7/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrThorns

I still claim that I am an Independant, but the GOP is really beginning to push me fully into the Dem camp.

~Thorns

Being against certain GOP ideals is no reason to join the dems, instead, think of reasons why you would feel more at home with "the donkey" (set a lot of time aside for this task, though- it's going to be harder than you think)

and you don't have to give yourself a label....it would be hard for me to do this since I am extreme right in economy issues, for small government, I think drugs should be legal, I am not religious (pretty much an atheist), I am for personal freedom and RESPONSIBILITY, but above all these things I understand how important it is for this country to be strong... so... I am an american-flag-waving Cuban LOL!!!

< Message edited by pantera -- 5/23/2005 6:07:55 AM >

(in reply to MrThorns)

Post #: 52

RE: Yet another political rant... - 5/23/2005 6:23:24 AM

pantera

Posts: 210
Joined: 1/7/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: UtopianRanger

It makes me sick to my stomach, everyday, when I pick up my copy of the Oregonian newspaper and find that many more Americans have died.

- The Ranger

well, it made me sick to see those towers falling and how thousands died.... it would make me sicker (if I was around to see it) to wake up one morning and hear that a nuclear bomb, or any other "weapon", was used against one of our cities....

I will never forget the images of people (everyday americans that work 8-12 hour days) jumping to their death out of those buildings (Univision showed it)

We need to put aside our own agenda also, and realise that those islamic extremists want to kill us (yes you, Mr. Green;...and you Mr. Left; ...and you, Mr. I-hate-W; ..and you, Mr. Global Citizen)

Is it so hard to see who your friends and enemies are??? You don't agree with conservatives because you think they want to impose their moral values on you or because you want to be free to smoke pot if you want? then fine, be against them!!! but don't say the things that your true enemy wants to hear because you hate W...some things are more important than others...

I am certain that if we had a Democrat in the white house fighting this war you wouldn't be so against it (yeah, yeah... you would be also...~whatever~)

(in reply to UtopianRanger)

Post #: 53

RE: Yet another political rant... - 5/23/2005 6:27:40 AM

pantera

Posts: 210
Joined: 1/7/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Yeah, and you want to know another govt. program that would be a godsend for American corporations? National health insurance. Ford and GM would be saved overnight. Oh, but wait, I thought national health insurance was a left-wing idea...

oh yes!!!! let's go ahead and ruin the best health care system in the world!!!!!

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 54

RE: Yet another political rant... - 5/23/2005 6:28:30 AM

BlkTallFullfig

Posts: 5585
Joined: 6/25/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: onceburned

quote:

At least a draft is impartial and fair.

Oh no it wasn't - not the draft we had between 1949 to 1973!

quote:

By the time of the Vietnam War, the answer was rather clear - the children of the privileged classes could avoid military service if they wished. As Vietnam became both bloody and controversial, large numbers of them wished exactly that. The draft laws and regulations aided their mission. Extensive physical disability standards provided ways for otherwise healthy young men to be physically disqualified, often with the help of supportive family doctors. Extensive occupational deferments provided a way to avoid military service, as did enrollment in higher education, which encouraged some students to pursue a decade-long ramble through undergraduate and graduate institutions.

You're just so awesome... There's no point in hiding our affair, everyone already knows I love you.

M

_____________________________

a.k.a. SexyBossyBBW
""Touching was, and still is, and will always be, the true revolution" Nikki Giovanni

(in reply to onceburned)

Post #: 55

RE: Yet another political rant... - 5/23/2005 9:42:27 AM

darkinshadows

Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline

noooooooo... Hes mine!!!!!!....

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to BlkTallFullfig)

Post #: 56

RE: Yet another political rant... - 5/23/2005 10:16:07 AM

darkinshadows

Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline

quote:

I will amend that to: a draft is theoretically impartial and fair

How?

Peace and Love

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to kisshou)

Post #: 57

RE: Yet another political rant... - 5/23/2005 10:21:02 AM

MrThorns

Posts: 919
Joined: 6/4/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: pantera

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrThorns

I still claim that I am an Independant, but the GOP is really beginning to push me fully into the Dem camp.

~Thorns

....it would be hard for me to do this since I am extreme right in economy issues, for small government, I think drugs should be legal, I am not religious (pretty much an atheist), I am for personal freedom and RESPONSIBILITY, but above all these things I understand how important it is for this country to be strong...

And I am actually inclined to agree with a lot of those ideals...aside from your desire for small government. I have no fear of a large, responsible government. Small government is too disorganized...too many cooks in the kitchen, so to speak.

I don't see any logic in the conservative economic policies. Conservatives seem to think that the performance of the Dow Industrials are a reflection of how the economy is doing. Conservatives also seem to believe in this "trickle down" theory. I would agree with this if I thought for one moment that the CEOs of those large companies were responsible people. I mean, how can a company, in good conscience, lay off 10,000 employees and yet have enough money to pay huge bonuses to their board of directors? It's irresponsible.

I'm all for keeping the US strong...but what has that strength been used for? Imposing our will on others? I'm all for our invasion of Afghanistan in search of the people who attacked us on 9/11, but isn't it a bit hypocritical not to have done a little more investigation into the house of Saud? To be distracted by Iraq? To continue to push all this money and effort in an attempt to get cheap oil? This isn't responsible behavior and it's being driven by the people who claim that individuals should be more responsible. Maybe if they practiced what they were preaching...

~Thorns

_____________________________

~"Do you know what the chain of command is? Its the chain I beat ya with when ya don't follow my command."

"My inner child is a mean little fucker"

(in reply to pantera)

Post #: 58

RE: Yet another political rant... - 5/23/2005 12:28:27 PM

kisshou

Posts: 2425
Joined: 2/11/2005
Status: offline

I feel so dumb but irregardless of that fact, you all (especially angel) have made me research what I thought was a truth. (see below) I had no idea that women would not be drafted. I can't believe that males have to register but females don't. It is 2005! It states right on the page that "(Note: Current law does not permit females to register)"

Selective Service System

Draft Gear Up?
Who Has To Register?
All male U.S. citizens and male aliens living in the U.S. between the ages of 18 and 25
Dual nationals of the U.S. and another country, regardless of where they live
Young men who are in prison or mental institutions do not have to regsiter while they are committed, but must do so if they are released and not reached age 26
Disabled men who live at home and can move about indiependently.
Myths
Contrary to popular belief, only sons and the last son to carry a family name must register and they can be drafted.
What Happens In A Draft
Congress would likely approve a military draft in a time of crisis, in which the mission requires more troops than are in the volunteer military.
Selective Service procedures would treat married men or those with children the same as single men.
The first men to be called up will be those whose 20th birthday falls during that year, followed by those age 21, 22, 23,24 and 25.
The last men to be called are 18 and 19 years of age.
Historical Facts
The last man to be drafted was in June 1973.
Number of Drafted for WWI : 2.8 million
Number of Drafted for WWII: 10 million
Number of Drafted for the Korean War: 1.5 million
Number of Drafted for the Vietnam War: 1.8 million
Source: Selective Service System

© 2004 The Brownsville Herald

(in reply to darkinshadows)

Post #: 59

RE: Yet another political rant... - 5/23/2005 1:09:54 PM

BlkTallFullfig

Posts: 5585
Joined: 6/25/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: dark~angel

noooooooo... Hes mine!!!!!!....

Angel, I can't fight you for anything, you're so kool... What to do?

. M

< Message edited by BlkTallFullfig -- 5/23/2005 1:11:45 PM >

_____________________________

a.k.a. SexyBossyBBW
""Touching was, and still is, and will always be, the true revolution" Nikki Giovanni

(in reply to darkinshadows)

Post #: 60

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