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RE: Death by Cop~ - 5/29/2007 10:55:46 AM   
philosophy


Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline 		Are there shades of unworthiness? i mean, let's assume a scale with 'worthy' at one end and 'unworthy' at the other.......are there any stages along the scale or do you, if you change at all, merely swap ends?

If not, then alongside your criticism of the military must be placed all the good and noble stuff they do........i'm not saying military types are either worthy or unworthy...or even mildly worthy for that matter......just that it's more complex than the general tenor of your posts suggest.

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RE: Death by Cop~ - 5/29/2007 11:00:10 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		No it isn't.

Either you HAVE honor and integrity, or you do not.

And if the military is unwilling to enforce discipline, starting at the top, and working their way down OR starting at the bottom and working their way up, then they have neither integrity nor honor.

I suppose the "Moral Relativists" would disagree.



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It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: Death by Cop~ - 5/29/2007 11:10:59 AM   
jauntyone


Posts: 543
Joined: 2/27/2007
From: Anchorage Alaska
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Greetings farglebargle
 
As a soldier, it is not my place to question a superior officer. The CiC, no matter what I may think of him or his actions; is still my superior. Not because the Constitution says so, but because I went into the military with a clear mind, and because I re-enlisted with an even clearer mind. There is no law that says I must agree, like, or even respect him; only that I am to follow orders when given to me by a SO.
 
I understand your passion on this subject and can feel sympathy for those who feel as you do. That does not mean, however, that I agree with you.
 
The CiC can send me to hell and back and I will go willingly, and with the same mindset that I have had since the day I arrived in boot camp. WHO the CiC is means very little to me.
 
Greetings wildflowers
 
I too saw that episode. Thank you for the links.
 
I never said that there were NOT soldiers that did not feel that this was wrong. I said that I HAVE YET to speak/hear ( to ) one who did.
 
I am sorry that my words on this thread caused such angst. It is one of the reasons why I tend to stay away from the discussions of the war/military on these boards.
 
I wish you all well on this beautiful day
 
melissa
 

(in reply to farglebargle)
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RE: Death by Cop~ - 5/29/2007 11:17:11 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		It is your place to question EVERY SINGLE ORDER for Lawfulness.

You're no slave. You are a CITIZEN FIRST, then a Soldier. And in a Constitutional Republic, you don't have the luxury of saying, "It's not my place to question."

The responsibilities of service go beyond showing up and obedience to orders. That's how the Commies run things, not Americans.

Of course, I expect those who are telling you it's not your duty to question EVERY order, have their own agenda.

What's the word "Lawful" used in the context of orders if YOU are not supposed to judge IF the order *is* Lawful?




_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: Death by Cop~ - 5/29/2007 11:18:24 AM   
philosophy


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Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

No it isn't.

Either you HAVE honor and integrity, or you do not.

And if the military is unwilling to enforce discipline, starting at the top, and working their way down OR starting at the bottom and working their way up, then they have neither integrity nor honor.

I suppose the "Moral Relativists" would disagree.




...and not just the moral relativists either........many many people would disagree, including those in the Ancient world who opposed the original draconian law. Most legal systems round the world recognise that trangressions can not be ordered by type and punished all the same. Honour and integrity really aren't simple two value systems, come to think of it barely anything is as easy as yes/no.

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RE: Death by Cop~ - 5/29/2007 11:21:34 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

You're no slave. You are a CITIZEN FIRST, then a Soldier. And in a Constitutional Republic, you don't have the luxury of saying, "It's not my place to question."

Of course, I expect those who are telling you it's not your duty to question EVERY order, have their own agenda.



I agree with garglebabble: it's harsh, but true. Our first duty is to question the moral rectitude of the orders that are given to us.

< Message edited by kittinSol -- 5/29/2007 11:22:45 AM >

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RE: Death by Cop~ - 5/29/2007 11:22:36 AM   
LightHeartedMaam


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Joined: 5/12/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jauntyone

Greetings farglebargle
 
As a soldier, it is not my place to question a superior officer. The CiC, no matter what I may think of him or his actions; is still my superior. Not because the Constitution says so, but because I went into the military with a clear mind, and because I re-enlisted with an even clearer mind. There is no law that says I must agree, like, or even respect him; only that I am to follow orders when given to me by a SO.
 
 
It is my understanding, that for an active soldier to voice an opinion or sentiment contrary to  the government's activity other than support, would be considered treasonous~ is this true?


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Now that I'm older, I thought it was great that it seems I have more patience. Turns out, that I just don't give a sh*t.

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RE: Death by Cop~ - 5/29/2007 11:25:12 AM   
BOUNTYHUNTER


Posts: 9259
Joined: 2/5/2004
Status: offline 		I believe you are wrong on this one,I served 24 years and bled 3 times for my country.A soldier is taught to react not thinking for moments trying to decipher right or wrong..I n my years of service to my country sure there were some times I thought the orders were wrong but went on about my business.BY the way I was just an ordinary soldier doing the best I could, I serve in the 82 and was a SF for 3 tours of nam...I also have served for a lenth of time as a SOF...bounty

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RE: Death by Cop~ - 5/29/2007 11:30:11 AM   
AquaticSub


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Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LightHeartedMaam

jauntyone,

Have ever lost ANYTHING you cherished deeply to a tragedy?

How long did it take you to think clearly?




Not everyone's mind is clouded by grief. People lose their loved one's and become police officers to fight crime, doctors to fight cancer, and join the forces to help save other enlisted.

It is her way of dealing with her loss. You have no business saying it's the wrong way.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to LightHeartedMaam)
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RE: Death by Cop~ - 5/29/2007 11:31:20 AM   
jauntyone


Posts: 543
Joined: 2/27/2007
From: Anchorage Alaska
Status: offline 		Greetings lightheartedmaam
 
quote:

  It is my understanding, that for an active soldier to voice an opinion or sentiment contrary to  the government's activity other than support, would be considered treasonous~ is this true?

Denouncing a superior officer; whether publically, orally, or in the written word would indeed lead to disciplinary action.
 
However, this does not mean that some SO's do not actively enlist the opinions of those who they command. I have been asked my opinion on occassion. However, once a decision is made; to not follow that order is to invite disciplinary action.
 
It is not seen so much as what some would consider treason though. Simply insubordination.
 
I wish you well
 
melissa

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RE: Death by Cop~ - 5/29/2007 11:31:34 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		Far from me the thought of devaluing your experience, Bounty, but it's not because you were injured in the course of battle that the battle was justified.

Let's not forget... that one of the reasons why the Holocaust occurred in the first place... was because so many people were happy not to question orders.

I can't believe we're still at this stage of the debate.

< Message edited by kittinSol -- 5/29/2007 11:32:28 AM >

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RE: Death by Cop~ - 5/29/2007 11:36:27 AM   
jauntyone


Posts: 543
Joined: 2/27/2007
From: Anchorage Alaska
Status: offline 		Greetings
 
this is just fast general reply; it is also my last on this subject.
 
I originally stated my thoughts with the idea that perhaps the young lady in question enlisted in the military for specific reasons unrelated to her husbands death; or perhaps related but not because of depression.
 
I did not enlist in the military because I had some grand idea of going to another country and coming back victorious. Personally, I thought going to Afghanastan and Iraq were horrible ideas to start with. I enlisted for one reason. Because I believe in this country. Pure and simple; no more, no less. It is the same reason why I re-enlisted.
 
Not because I believed in our leaders. But because I believe in this country.
 
I wish you all well with the rest of this thread.
 
melissa

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RE: Death by Cop~ - 5/29/2007 11:36:44 AM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Far from me the thought of devaluing your experience, Bounty, but it's not because you were injured in the course of battle that the battle was justified.

Let's not forget... that one of the reasons why the Holocaust occurred in the first place... was because so many people were happy not to question orders.

I can't believe we're still at this stage of the debate.


I can't believe you just said that.

This battle is being questioned and scruntized from all sides. We know about the torture and we did something about it. You might not think it was enough but we did something. We exposed it, it was front page, everyone was disgusted.

The holocost? One story, tiny section near shoe ads in the New York newspaper because the Jewish newspaper company were afraid to give it more press time and the government didn't want to admit what was going on in Germany because the AMERICAN PEOPLE didn't want to be involved and didn't give a shit who was dying. No country would take a boat filled with Jewish people and sent them back to die.

It's a lot different and comparing this to the holocost is a cheap emotional trick.

< Message edited by AquaticSub -- 5/29/2007 11:37:46 AM >

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to kittinSol)
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RE: Death by Cop~ - 5/29/2007 11:37:02 AM   
LightHeartedMaam


Posts: 296
Joined: 5/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

quote:

ORIGINAL: LightHeartedMaam

jauntyone,

Have you ever lost ANYTHING you cherished deeply to a tragedy?

How long did it take you to think clearly?




Not everyone's mind is clouded by grief. People lose their loved one's and become police officers to fight crime, doctors to fight cancer, and join the forces to help save other enlisted.

It is her way of dealing with her loss. You have no business saying it's the wrong way.


But I AM entitled to my opinion.   She is young and with youth comes idealism. That and $2.50 will get her a cuppa coffee.  There needs to be a cooling off period.  The rule of thumb is for the recently widowed to wait a year and make no  life altering decisions.  She's a warm body and they have her right were they want her.

_____________________________

Now that I'm older, I thought it was great that it seems I have more patience. Turns out, that I just don't give a sh*t.

(in reply to AquaticSub)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Death by Cop~ - 5/29/2007 11:37:57 AM   
Wildfleurs


Posts: 1650
Joined: 9/24/2004
From: Connecticut
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jauntyone


 
Greetings wildflowers
 
I too saw that episode. Thank you for the links.
 
I never said that there were NOT soldiers that did not feel that this was wrong. I said that I HAVE YET to speak/hear ( to ) one who did.
 
I am sorry that my words on this thread caused such angst. It is one of the reasons why I tend to stay away from the discussions of the war/military on these boards.
 
I wish you all well on this beautiful day
 
melissa
 



Hi Melissa,

There was no angst on my side, I don't get all worked up like some people about the political discussions on here.

Since you said you hadn't heard from any soldiers who felt differently (you never said speak to, you only said heard), I felt it would be helpful to show you some specific places that you could go if you wanted to hear from people who felt differently, and in fact since you saw the same episode as I did, you have heard from soldiers who feel differently on the war.

C~


_____________________________

"Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid." -despair.com

~~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
The heart of it all - http://www.wildfleurs.com
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RE: Death by Cop~ - 5/29/2007 11:38:04 AM   
kiyari


Posts: 631
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

It is your place to question EVERY SINGLE ORDER for Lawfulness.

You're no slave. You are a CITIZEN FIRST, then a Soldier. And in a Constitutional Republic, you don't have the luxury of saying, "It's not my place to question."

The responsibilities of service go beyond showing up and obedience to orders. That's how the Commies run things, not Americans.

Of course, I expect those who are telling you it's not your duty to question EVERY order, have their own agenda.

What's the word "Lawful" used in the context of orders if YOU are not supposed to judge IF the order *is* Lawful?



There is also some quibble re: difference between 'lawful' and 'moral' (just to add more vagueness... not with any ill intent)

Following orders which in hindsight prove to have been (morally legally politically or other-ly) INCONVENIENT, has in past been basis for one falling to 'war crimes' vilification.

Granted, historically this has been applied only to the losing party/parties, and it is inconceivable that the US of A could ever be the 'losing party'... but that is a technicality, if one would 'play fair'...

ya ya, silly thing to suggest

If the pawns did not go along with it all [and in so doing, through misguided allegiance to ... to what? -- enabling great evils to be perpetuated upon the whim of a madman or small cabal], much evil might be thwarted.

Think Globally (think of the world as your own backyard, and the peoples in it, as family], act Locally.

Ya, it's a bumper-sticker saying...

< Message edited by kiyari -- 5/29/2007 11:45:37 AM >

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RE: Death by Cop~ - 5/29/2007 11:38:35 AM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LightHeartedMaam

quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

quote:

ORIGINAL: LightHeartedMaam

jauntyone,

Have you ever lost ANYTHING you cherished deeply to a tragedy?

How long did it take you to think clearly?




Not everyone's mind is clouded by grief. People lose their loved one's and become police officers to fight crime, doctors to fight cancer, and join the forces to help save other enlisted.

It is her way of dealing with her loss. You have no business saying it's the wrong way.


But I AM entitled to my opinion.   She is young and with youth comes idealism. That and $2.50 will get her a cuppa coffee.  There needs to be a cooling off period.  The rule of thumb is for the recently widowed to wait a year and make no  life altering decisions.  She's a warm body and they have her right were they want her.


I'd still like to see that article where you are getting this from.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to LightHeartedMaam)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Death by Cop~ - 5/29/2007 11:41:46 AM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jauntyone

Greetings
 
this is just fast general reply; it is also my last on this subject.
 
I originally stated my thoughts with the idea that perhaps the young lady in question enlisted in the military for specific reasons unrelated to her husbands death; or perhaps related but not because of depression.
 
I did not enlist in the military because I had some grand idea of going to another country and coming back victorious. Personally, I thought going to Afghanastan and Iraq were horrible ideas to start with. I enlisted for one reason. Because I believe in this country. Pure and simple; no more, no less. It is the same reason why I re-enlisted.
 
Not because I believed in our leaders. But because I believe in this country.
 
I wish you all well with the rest of this thread.
 
melissa


While I agree with your line of reasoning, I don't think a lot of people will ever understand. I considered joining the services for a long time because I love this country. I wanted to help, even if I didn't agree with everything that was going on. In the end I decided that I really wouldn't be all that much use to the military. But, I may still join, if they ever express a need for someone who can do the things I can do. I admire you, and I agree that the young lady was probably inclined to join anyway.

If I lost my husband or loved one the way she did, I would want to join to and as I've already been inclined to join, I would try to get the waiting period waved.

Perhaps if we can be linked to the article or given a name to look up, we can see if she ever stated that this was an out of character move for her, or something she was already inclined to do.

< Message edited by AquaticSub -- 5/29/2007 11:42:31 AM >

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to jauntyone)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Death by Cop~ - 5/29/2007 11:45:43 AM   
HutchGarahl


Posts: 562
Joined: 1/10/2007
Status: offline 		If you want to see the video of this young lady, go to CNN.COM, click the link about "Crowd snipspieces of 37-foot beached whale, then click the link "Soldiers Widow Enlists"

Now, as for why the young lady is joining...Did you stop to think that part of it just may be her way to honor her husband and a small way of dealing with her loss? I wish the young lady well in her future.

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RE: Death by Cop~ - 5/29/2007 11:46:27 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		I disagree with you. I think that, on the contrary, there are many similarities in the way human beings acted, act and will act when they're dealing with the moral consequences of war. I think there are direct correlations in the way wardens treated prisonners at Guantanamo and what happened in the camps.

I also believe soldiers acting under command have undergone training akin to brainwashing: they have lost their will to make informed, humane decision. They have been molded to obey without question.

Come to think of it, war makes for ideal submissives *sigh*.

< Message edited by kittinSol -- 5/29/2007 11:51:23 AM >

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