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RE: Death by Cop~ - 5/29/2007 11:51:53 AM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline 		Really? I think you should dig out your history books.

The stuff that is going on has been splashed all over the front pages. We know that bad stuff is going on. We know that our soliders have done some bad stuff and we know that people are being tortured and killed.

Nobody knew anything about the holocost until it was over because nobody in America wanted to know. We didn't care who was dying. We didn't care about the women and children. It was over there, it couldn't bother us! The newspapers didn't print it, the government didn't talk about it and our men didn't find the camps until the end of the war.

We only started caring when they bombed us.

Wait... maybe you are right. After all... Saddam and Bin Laden were only abusing their own people. We didn't care because they weren't hurting us. We only started to care after 9/11.

Maybe we still are just like pre-WWII America.

And it's disgusting.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to kittinSol)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Death by Cop~ - 5/29/2007 11:54:40 AM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

I also believe soldiers acting under command have undergone training akin to brainwashing: they have lost their will to make informed, humane decision. They have been molded to obey without question.

Come to think of it, war makes for ideal submissives *sigh*.


Armies, businesses and D/s households are a lot alike.

They don't function if everyone is running off in their own directions. They waste money, time and things don't get done efficently. Someone is in charge, they give orders, those get passed out.

You might as argue that all the submissives have been brainwashed because we don't speak up every time we think our dominant has given an order that doesn't make perfect sense or that we think should be done another way.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to kittinSol)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Death by Cop~ - 5/29/2007 11:56:48 AM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub
Wait... maybe you are right. After all... Saddam and Bin Laden were only abusing their own people. We didn't care because they weren't hurting us. We only started to care after 9/11.

Maybe we still are just like pre-WWII America.

And it's disgusting.



OUuuuu! Day it is!

oh wait thats right. i forgot about waco, murrah, ruby ridge, and lets not forget 911  :)

OUuuu Day it tis!



_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to AquaticSub)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Death by Cop~ - 5/29/2007 12:05:09 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		I completely agree with you there... except I object to the word 'we': first, because I am not american. Secondly, because even if I were, I wouldn't participate in the idea of belonging to the 'nation'.



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Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Death by Cop~ - 5/29/2007 12:07:52 PM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

I completely agree with you there... except I object to the word 'we': first, because I am not american. Secondly, because even if I were, I wouldn't participate in the idea of belonging to the 'nation'.




Then why live here?

This war is not like the holocost, athough America does still suffer from isolationistic thinking, which seems to stem from both pro and anti war factions.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to kittinSol)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Death by Cop~ - 5/29/2007 12:08:52 PM   
IrishMist


Posts: 7480
Joined: 11/17/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: HutchGarahl

If you want to see the video of this young lady, go to CNN.COM, click the link about "Crowd snipspieces of 37-foot beached whale, then click the link "Soldiers Widow Enlists"

Now, as for why the young lady is joining...Did you stop to think that part of it just may be her way to honor her husband and a small way of dealing with her loss? I wish the young lady well in her future.

first off, may I say thank you for posting where the link could be found.

Secondly, I watched the short clip they had and found nothing in this girls words or actions to show depression or to support a statement that the military is 'downgrading' their standards.

_____________________________

If I said something to offend you, please tell me what it was so that I can say it again later.


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Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Death by Cop~ - 5/29/2007 12:09:06 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LightHeartedMaam

quote:

ORIGINAL: jauntyone

Greetings farglebargle
As a soldier, it is not my place to question a superior officer. The CiC, no matter what I may think of him or his actions; is still my superior. Not because the Constitution says so, but because I went into the military with a clear mind, and because I re-enlisted with an even clearer mind. There is no law that says I must agree, like, or even respect him; only that I am to follow orders when given to me by a SO.
It is my understanding, that for an active soldier to voice an opinion or sentiment contrary to the government's activity other than support, would be considered treasonous~ is this true?



What does the OATH say?



The wordings of the current oath of enlistment and oath for commissioned officers are as follows:

quote:


"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God." (Title 10, US Code; Act of 5 May 1960 replacing the wording first adopted in 1789, with amendment effective 5 October 1962).

"I, _____ (SSAN), having been appointed an officer in the Army of the United States, as indicated above in the grade of _____ do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign or domestic, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservations or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office upon which I am about to enter; So help me God." (DA Form 71, 1 August 1959, for officers.)


FIRST support and defend the Constitution against domestic and foreign enemies.
SECOND bear true faith and allegiance to THE CONSTITUTION
THIRD obedience to all orders ACCORDING TO REGULATIONS AND UCMJ.

The OFFICER oath doesn't even say obey orders, but instead Faithfully Discharge the Duties.

So, we've learned that blind obedience is for Communist Slaves, and that AMERICAN SOLDIERS are duty bound to examine ALL orders for fidelity to THE CONSTITUTION, Regulations, and lastly the UCMJ.





_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to LightHeartedMaam)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Death by Cop~ - 5/29/2007 12:10:37 PM   
LightHeartedMaam


Posts: 296
Joined: 5/12/2007
Status: offline 		Is there a psychologist/psychiatrist lurking in the house? Maybe he/she can explain about grief and the mental state of traumatic events.  



_____________________________

Now that I'm older, I thought it was great that it seems I have more patience. Turns out, that I just don't give a sh*t.

(in reply to AquaticSub)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Death by Cop~ - 5/29/2007 12:11:52 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BOUNTYHUNTER

I believe you are wrong on this one,I served 24 years and bled 3 times for my country.A soldier is taught to react not thinking for moments trying to decipher right or wrong.


If the training and orders contradict that to which you've sworn an oath to, the training is wrong.

Don't excuse someones negligence in actively performing their sworn duty with poor training. There is a duty to question that, too.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to BOUNTYHUNTER)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Death by Cop~ - 5/29/2007 12:11:59 PM   
IrishMist


Posts: 7480
Joined: 11/17/2005
Status: offline
quote:

and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God." (Title 10, US Code; Act of 5 May 1960 replacing the wording first adopted in 1789, with amendment effective 5 October 1962).


sorry, but you are wrong. It DOES say that they WILL obey orders.

_____________________________

If I said something to offend you, please tell me what it was so that I can say it again later.


(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Death by Cop~ - 5/29/2007 12:13:28 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Far from me the thought of devaluing your experience, Bounty, but it's not because you were injured in the course of battle that the battle was justified.

Let's not forget... that one of the reasons why the Holocaust occurred in the first place... was because so many people were happy not to question orders.

I can't believe we're still at this stage of the debate.


We hanged Nazis at Nuremberg to prove the point that "Just Following Orders" wasn't an excuse.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to kittinSol)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Death by Cop~ - 5/29/2007 12:15:30 PM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LightHeartedMaam

Is there a psychologist/psychiatrist lurking in the house? Maybe he/she can explain about grief and the mental state of traumatic events.  




I think you are refusing to admit that you could be wrong.

I have experienced grief. But that does not mean this woman was taken advantage of. The one simply does not mean the other. While others have provided a source for us to learn about this woman, you have not. You did not even give us a name. I wonder why.

Plenty of people are motivated to do things by the death of a loved one. Some will join the fight against breast cancer. Some will join the police. Others may become teachers in hopes of educating youth to go against violence. This woman responded in a way that you do not approve of and therefore, she must be blinded from grief.

She may have been. But nobody has given us anything to anything either way. And I don't think it's respectful of her, her grief or her way of honoring her husband to twist it into this "warning" message.



_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to LightHeartedMaam)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Death by Cop~ - 5/29/2007 12:15:36 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

quote:

and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God." (Title 10, US Code; Act of 5 May 1960 replacing the wording first adopted in 1789, with amendment effective 5 October 1962).


sorry, but you are wrong. It DOES say that they WILL obey orders.


YEAH, only LAWFUL ONES, which are in line with both the Constitution, Regulations, and UCMJ.

You have a DUTY to judge each order for compliance with those sources.

You took an OATH to judge each order for compliance with those sources.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to IrishMist)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Death by Cop~ - 5/29/2007 12:17:23 PM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle


quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Far from me the thought of devaluing your experience, Bounty, but it's not because you were injured in the course of battle that the battle was justified.

Let's not forget... that one of the reasons why the Holocaust occurred in the first place... was because so many people were happy not to question orders.

I can't believe we're still at this stage of the debate.


We hanged Nazis at Nuremberg to prove the point that "Just Following Orders" wasn't an excuse.




And I do believe we have punished our own men for following bad orders.

It is a bit like submission in the ideal. You obey until something comes up that violates your ethics. Then you disobey, and just hope you were right.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Death by Cop~ - 5/29/2007 12:20:54 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:


This battle is being questioned and scruntized from all sides. We know about the torture and we did something about it. You might not think it was enough but we did something. We exposed it, it was front page, everyone was disgusted.


What justice has been done for Abeer Qasim Hamza al-Janabi , who was gang-raped and murdered, along with her family, premeditatedly, by soldiers wearing the US flag, acting in the name of the US, and The People?

Has Steven D. Green been Hanged?

Has the SGT who PERMITTED IT been hanged?

Why should they be permitted to rape and murder children in our name, without justice?

So, we refuse to hold the troops accountable, and we refuse to hold the CiC accountable.

Given the proven lack of Honor and Integrity, maybe those who believe the troops deserve to be spit upon aren't totally off base.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to AquaticSub)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Death by Cop~ - 5/29/2007 12:20:55 PM   
IrishMist


Posts: 7480
Joined: 11/17/2005
Status: offline 		You know...you seem hell bent on insiting that those who serve in the military should do so BY YOUR standards of excellence.

I served. I did things that I was not proud of. Yet, if I had to go back and do it all over again, knowing what I know now, I would in a heart beat.

There are some who take their duties as soldiers very seriously. They don't always agree with the orders that they are given; but they follow them because it is part of what they agreed to when they signed on. It is NOT their place to question an order. They may not agree with it, but it's not their place to question it.

The day that people like you rule this country farglebargle is the day I move to a communist country.

_____________________________

If I said something to offend you, please tell me what it was so that I can say it again later.


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Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Death by Cop~ - 5/29/2007 12:23:13 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

You know...you seem hell bent on insiting that those who serve in the military should do so BY YOUR standards of excellence.


Nope. Just the OATH they CHOSE to swear.

In a Communist nation, blind obedience to orders would be welcome.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to IrishMist)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Death by Cop~ - 5/29/2007 12:30:19 PM   
BOUNTYHUNTER


Posts: 9259
Joined: 2/5/2004
Status: offline 		I am not fighting with you guy,its just some of your dumb statements are off the wall.After all the purple hearts and SILVER STAR WITH A V wouldn't buy a cup of coffee.BOUNTY

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US going to hell in a hand basket/

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RE: Death by Cop~ - 5/29/2007 12:32:47 PM   
peepeegirl5


Posts: 214
Joined: 3/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

I disagree with you. I think that, on the contrary, there are many similarities in the way human beings acted, act and will act when they're dealing with the moral consequences of war. I think there are direct correlations in the way wardens treated prisonners at Guantanamo and what happened in the camps.

I also believe soldiers acting under command have undergone training akin to brainwashing: they have lost their will to make informed, humane decision. They have been molded to obey without question.

Come to think of it, war makes for ideal submissives *sigh*.


Yeah! Like with Harkonnen heartplugs.

If powerheads sub for balance, briggensub is more accurate ..?

< Message edited by peepeegirl5 -- 5/29/2007 12:37:22 PM >

_____________________________

"If we value so highly the dignity of life, how can we not also value the dignity of death? No death may be called futile." - Yukio Mishima

(in reply to kittinSol)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Death by Cop~ - 5/29/2007 12:40:17 PM   
peepeegirl5


Posts: 214
Joined: 3/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:


This battle is being questioned and scruntized from all sides. We know about the torture and we did something about it. You might not think it was enough but we did something. We exposed it, it was front page, everyone was disgusted.


What justice has been done for Abeer Qasim Hamza al-Janabi , who was gang-raped and murdered, along with her family, premeditatedly, by soldiers wearing the US flag, acting in the name of the US, and The People?

Has Steven D. Green been Hanged?

Has the SGT who PERMITTED IT been hanged?

Why should they be permitted to rape and murder children in our name, without justice?

So, we refuse to hold the troops accountable, and we refuse to hold the CiC accountable.

Given the proven lack of Honor and Integrity, maybe those who believe the troops deserve to be spit upon aren't totally off base.




They failed to follow the chain of command.

If the officers don't go first this is the kinda stuff you get.




_____________________________

"If we value so highly the dignity of life, how can we not also value the dignity of death? No death may be called futile." - Yukio Mishima

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 60
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