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[Poll]

golliwogs - racially offensive?


I'm black/Afro-Caribbean; I find them offensive
  7% (3)
I'm black/Afro-Caribbean; I dont find them offensive
  4% (2)
I'm not black/Afro Caribbean; I find them offensive
  36% (15)
I'm not black/Afro-Caribbean; I dont find them offensive
  51% (21)


Total Votes : 41
(last vote on : 8/12/2007 7:50:26 AM)
(Poll will run till: -- )
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golliwogs - racially offensive? - 5/31/2007 10:57:02 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		We just had a story on the local TV news tonight which has led me to posing this question.

A man in Leek (Staffordshire England) has been cautioned by police after an anonymous member of the public reported him for racism, on account of the fact that he was displaying a golliwog on his car. The man concerned collects them apparently and has done since he was a child.

We had a bunch of reactions from passersby in the town as part of the report. We'll never know how representative those reactions are of the whole population of course, nor how they might have been edited down, but in all but one of the reactions broadcast, no one saw any problem or offence - including two black/Afro-Caribbean respondents.

For me, I'd have said that perhaps ten years ago and before, I might have seen some form of offence in golliwogs. But nowadays I dont think that way - its a child's toy and nothing to do with a racist stereotyped depiction of black/Afro-Caribbean people to me, as I believe the complainant in this case might be claiming. I dont know - maybe I feel that our society has moved on a bit from all that?

What do others think?

E

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RE: golliwogs - racially offensive? - 5/31/2007 10:59:17 AM   
Lordandmaster


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Status: offline 		Golliwogs are from a different age when racial stereotypes were culturally acceptable.  Today, they're not.  I don't accept the "Please, it's just a child's toy" argument.  There are all kinds of child's toys that parents can buy; child's toys aren't innocuous just because they're child's toys.

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RE: golliwogs - racially offensive? - 5/31/2007 11:00:56 AM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		What is a "gollywog?"
And, if anonymous sources can "report" you for this kind of thing you do truly live in a police-state!

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RE: golliwogs - racially offensive? - 5/31/2007 11:03:53 AM   
cjenny


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

What is a "gollywog?"
And, if anonymous sources can "report" you for this kind of thing you do truly live in a police-state!


http://www.ferris.edu/jimcrow/golliwog/

They make me feel a bit queasy inside. Oddly Little Black Sambo never bothered me, I loved that book as a little girl but the golliwogs have always bothered me on a visceral level.

< Message edited by cjenny -- 5/31/2007 11:06:26 AM >

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RE: golliwogs - racially offensive? - 5/31/2007 11:08:45 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
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From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		A golliwog - I'm sure Google will have plenty of references, is a child's toy, much like a ragdoll. Its face and hands are black, and it has red lips, black hair and so on and often come dressed in pinstripe trousers and a bow tie. They first appeared in a book from the late 19th century from the report tonight and have been in British culture since, most notably in the Robertson's jam merchandising and the children's books by Enid Blyton.

The problem was (is) that regardless of the original motivation for their creation - which may or may not have been based on ignorant racist ideas of their time - the white population certainly identified them as "humourous" stereotyped depictions of black/Afro Caribbean people. I havent heard the word "golli" used about a black person since the 70s, but it was certainly used. "Wog" for the same purpose, (and applied equally to anyone of colour), is certainly still in use. What's notable though is that "wog" appears to have been extant long before golliwogs were created, and so there is undoubtedly a link.

E

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RE: golliwogs - racially offensive? - 5/31/2007 11:11:30 AM   
Zensee


Posts: 1564
Joined: 9/4/2004
Status: offline 		Gollywogs were given away with jars of jam when I was a kid in England (I'm 47). We were also read Little Black Sambo stories at school (not exclusively but they were favourites). Are these depictions racial stereotypes? Yes they certainly are. Are they offensive? They certainly can be.

In the case of the collector, perhaps they are an innocent fixation but he should have the sense to recognise that they will be offensive to some people and justifiably so. Don't display them in public unless you can give them context.

My concern is that by allowing "harmless" displays of offensive stereotypes it will allow skin heads and the likes to display truly harmful depictions under the guise of just being a collector. Gollywogs, lawn jockeys and the like may be legitimate and informative artifacts from a different time but that does not make it appropriate for them to be displayed without explanation or context.


Z.

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RE: golliwogs - racially offensive? - 5/31/2007 11:26:58 AM   
FatDomDaddy


Posts: 3183
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Status: offline 		The things you learn on CM!

I had never heard of them.

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RE: golliwogs - racially offensive? - 5/31/2007 12:51:47 PM   
IEvolve


Posts: 543
Joined: 12/22/2006
Status: offline 		You mean it's not a girl polliwog???

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RE: golliwogs - racially offensive? - 5/31/2007 12:58:54 PM   
LightHeartedMaam


Posts: 296
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quote:

ORIGINAL: IEvolve

You mean it's not a girl polliwog???


I thought it meant an astounded pollywog~ "golly!" wog

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RE: golliwogs - racially offensive? - 5/31/2007 1:08:35 PM   
tatangel


Posts: 507
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		I know this will not be a popular opinion, but really, I am sick of this kind of thing. There will always be someone who takes offense to something someone else does, says, wears, writes, reads, teaches blah blah blah. This guy had something on his personal car that he collected and loved, and to me, suggesting he take it off because someone somewhere is certainly going to find it offensive is rediculous. I have many bumper stickers on my car, all of which a Catholic would find offensive. Does that mean that I should remove them? I don't think so. I think that assuming that everything is ''racist'' or is a ''racist statement'' is absurd. When there is violence and hate involved, it is different, that is racism. To sport a sticker that you like and feel is cute is not the same thing, and I see so damn many of these comparisons. My family is German, does that make me a Nazi? Of course not. This guy had a sticker on his car from a 1700's childrens' book and that makes him a racist? WTF ever.

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RE: golliwogs - racially offensive? - 5/31/2007 1:13:57 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		Well, I agree that reporting someone for "racism" just because he has a golliwog on his car is kinda absurd (besides, how exactly do you report someone for racism?), but I also have to wonder why someone is prominently displaying it.  Collecting golliwogs is one thing; displaying them on your car is another.  Sounds to me like someone really is trying to make some kind of divisive statement and is hiding behind innocent-sounding "Oh I just collect them for fun" talk.

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RE: golliwogs - racially offensive? - 5/31/2007 1:16:41 PM   
Vendaval


Posts: 10297
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline 		Hello Lady E,
 
I had heard of these before and did a quick search for the images
and explanations.
 
The site is not public domain and many of the terms discussed
are inflammatory, so click on the link for the text and images.
 
What I can tell you from scanning the article is that the term
is a racial slur in many countries; England, Germany, Ireland,
Greece and Australia.
 
So to answer your question, yes,I do find the term and image
objectionable.



http://www.ferris.edu/jimcrow/golliwog/

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RE: golliwogs - racially offensive? - 5/31/2007 1:25:39 PM   
NakedOnMyChain


Posts: 2431
Joined: 11/29/2004
From: Indiana
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Golliwogs are from a different age when racial stereotypes were culturally acceptable.  Today, they're not.  I don't accept the "Please, it's just a child's toy" argument.  There are all kinds of child's toys that parents can buy; child's toys aren't innocuous just because they're child's toys.


Exactly.  Because if we accept the "It's just a toy" argument, then suddenly the "Little Black Sambo" Golden Books are OK again.  Nothing racist is innocuous, no matter the argument.

Edited to add:  If I'd read all the responses before responding I would have known that my first point was already mentioned.  So take the second for what it's worth.

< Message edited by NakedOnMyChain -- 5/31/2007 1:27:43 PM >

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RE: golliwogs - racially offensive? - 5/31/2007 1:26:50 PM   
tatangel


Posts: 507
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Well, I agree that reporting someone for "racism" just because he has a golliwog on his car is kinda absurd (besides, how exactly do you report someone for racism?), but I also have to wonder why someone is prominently displaying it.  Collecting golliwogs is one thing; displaying them on your car is another.  Sounds to me like someone really is trying to make some kind of divisive statement and is hiding behind innocent-sounding "Oh I just collect them for fun" talk.
Now, this is just my opinion, and I certainly don't expect everyone to agree, nor am I trying to start an arguement, but I really don't see the validity in this. To start collecting something as a child and continue the tradition into adulthood does not a racist make, IMO. I think we as a nation have gotten too ''PC'' to the point where it is interfering with other people's personal rights/freedoms. I think tattooing a statement onto your face is making a ''decisive statement'' not a sticker on your car.

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RE: golliwogs - racially offensive? - 5/31/2007 1:31:11 PM   
NakedOnMyChain


Posts: 2431
Joined: 11/29/2004
From: Indiana
Status: offline 		If it was just a collection, that would, perhaps, be true.  Feeling the need to proudly display such a hobby for the world to see is questionable at best.  Also questionable is the mature adult who would realize that a childhood hobby is in fact racist and would continue despite that fact.

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RE: golliwogs - racially offensive? - 5/31/2007 1:35:14 PM   
cjenny


Posts: 1736
Joined: 11/27/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tatangel

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Well, I agree that reporting someone for "racism" just because he has a golliwog on his car is kinda absurd (besides, how exactly do you report someone for racism?), but I also have to wonder why someone is prominently displaying it.  Collecting golliwogs is one thing; displaying them on your car is another.  Sounds to me like someone really is trying to make some kind of divisive statement and is hiding behind innocent-sounding "Oh I just collect them for fun" talk.
Now, this is just my opinion, and I certainly don't expect everyone to agree, nor am I trying to start an arguement, but I really don't see the validity in this. To start collecting something as a child and continue the tradition into adulthood does not a racist make, IMO. I think we as a nation have gotten too ''PC'' to the point where it is interfering with other people's personal rights/freedoms. I think tattooing a statement onto your face is making a ''decisive statement'' not a sticker on your car.


The question was 'golliwogs-racially offensive'? If you take the time to read the link that Vendaval & I offered you would learn the actual history behind the word. It wasn't just a doll, they were pervasive characters that portrayed blacks as :
The Upton Golliwogg was adventurous and sometimes silly, but, in the main, gallant and "lovable," albeit, unsightly. Later Golliwogs were often unkind, mean-spirited, and even more visually hideous.
 
http://www.ferris.edu/jimcrow/golliwog/

It isn't being over PC, there is a fairly long history of understanding just what a golliwog 'is'.

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RE: golliwogs - racially offensive? - 5/31/2007 1:36:02 PM   
drawntothedark


Posts: 572
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From: Arkansas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tatangel

I know this will not be a popular opinion, but really, I am sick of this kind of thing. There will always be someone who takes offense to something someone else does, says, wears, writes, reads, teaches blah blah blah. This guy had something on his personal car that he collected and loved, and to me, suggesting he take it off because someone somewhere is certainly going to find it offensive is rediculous. I have many bumper stickers on my car, all of which a Catholic would find offensive. Does that mean that I should remove them? I don't think so. I think that assuming that everything is ''racist'' or is a ''racist statement'' is absurd. When there is violence and hate involved, it is different, that is racism. To sport a sticker that you like and feel is cute is not the same thing, and I see so damn many of these comparisons. My family is German, does that make me a Nazi? Of course not. This guy had a sticker on his car from a 1700's childrens' book and that makes him a racist? WTF ever.


what I find offensive is not the images themselves. It's the intent. If you click on that link provided you will see that these "toys' were used in a racial way. The agatha Christy book that started out as poem about the slaughter of 10 black children is an example.

It does not matter if this was from 1700 or 2007. Racial hatred is not cool whatever the era.

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RE: golliwogs - racially offensive? - 5/31/2007 1:41:38 PM   
NakedOnMyChain


Posts: 2431
Joined: 11/29/2004
From: Indiana
Status: offline 		I agree with your sentiments.  However, and I could be wrong about this, I don't believe the Agatha Christie book's intent was racist.  It was more a satiric murder-mystery.  The poem it is based on most certainly was racist.

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RE: golliwogs - racially offensive? - 5/31/2007 1:45:28 PM   
kittensmailbox


Posts: 744
Joined: 1/7/2005
From: Youngstown, Ohio
Status: offline 		i too had to look up the word golliwog to be sure what it was... personally i think it is just a ugly doll regardless of the color of the cloth it is made from... 

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RE: golliwogs - racially offensive? - 5/31/2007 1:48:33 PM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		Just to be clear - this incident took place in England.

A "hate crime" here can be reported by the victim or a third party witness. An offence is treated as a hate crime if the victim or a third party witness perceives the commissioning of the offence to have been motivated by hate for a particular group. Upon conviction, the penalty for offences treated as hate crimes is increased by comparison to non hate crime instances.

We also have laws which govern community relations and free speech. One can do and say and publish whatever one wishes, but one may not promote hatred or violence against a particular group. Fred Phelps (Westboro Baptist Church) would last about a day over here, if his entry to the UK were not deemed to be against the public interest that is. Placing a golliwog on a car might fall into this category of offence in that it could be construed as publishing an image which promotes a negative image of an ethnic group.

Although personally, I see no connection in our day and age between golliwogs and black/Afro Caribbean people, the point is that someone did perceive such a connection, felt offended by it and reported it, so my opinion doesnt come into it on that side of things. I had hoped we had grown up from those attitudes - I certainly feel I have - but I accept that many people in our society perhaps have not and that therefore on balance the time is not yet come when we as a whole can accept such public displays.

E

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