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ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

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ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

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Any healthy relationship places children above all other needs and wants.

Accepting your opinion that I live in an unhealthy relationship I see this resulting in an ultimately unhappy or at least frustrating life not only for you and your partner but for the children as well.

Placing children above all means that you're making decision favoring them over your relationship. What happens when they are adults? Does your commitment to them place the responsibility of your happiness and contentment on them? At that point would you then put your relationship on a priority status should your partner agree to wait for that passage of time? What if, realizing how good it is/was, and finding no similar reliable emotional, physical, economic, "you come first" benefactor they never leave or rebound? At that point would you try to make them function outside your influence, 18, 21, 25, 40?

I agree.

I have never understood the "what about the children" cry and the idea of building the entire family around them. I mean, weren't you a couple before them? I think the core of the family is the couple, if they aren't stable and aren't happy nothing else is going to run smoothly or be happy.

Nobody (and by that I mean me) said that being stable as a couple isn;t important to children - but now see - I see your statement as putting the children above anything else.  It's there in black and white.  If the relationship is healthy and and stable you already are bulding the family around them and yourselves.

I did not say 'what about the children'.  There is no pity for children and I find that completely inappropriate .  I also find it unethical(trying to stick with the OP) that you are putting words in my mouth.  What I have said is that if you can't be responsible for children - .DONTHAVETHEM.

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ORIGINAL: aurora31

Okay on the children vs relationship thing I believe it is a matter of balance. I believe that you should put the children first but that does not always mean you cater to them, it is a matter of priorities. An example do you attend your child's graduation ( from what ever, grade school, high school, scouts, camp etc etc etc) or do you take a weekend to yourself. Most here I think would agree the graduation comes first. But if your child wants to have an impromptu sleep over and you have a weekend away planned then the weekend away is probably going to win out. Part of raising a well rounded independent adult is telling them no as kids and teaching them to deal with disappointment. To me this is putting the child first but not at the expense of the relationship.

aurora

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Any healthy relationship places children above all other needs and wants.

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ORIGINAL: BossyShoeBitch

Many people make the mistake of giving to their children at the expense of the marriage. The real answer is to give to the marriage. Ultimately this is what will benefit our children the most.

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ORIGINAL: domiguy

Ethics rarely change.

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ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

Ethical behavior doesn't allow for D/s, and especially not M/s! We violate ethics in adopting this lifestyle, at least in the view of larger society.

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In our own society? It depends where you define us. Still, I feel that the mature among us allow for people to follow their desires as they will, so long as it does not largely contradict the consent of another.

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A parasite feeds from a host without any benefit to the host [...].  They live at the expense of the host.

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You have children as part of your relationship then you take them into consideration.

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And the Hitler quote is used completely out of context.

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First define parasite.

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You can't take a word, completely redefine it and make it something else without your opinion being incorrect to the majority/others.

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Maybe symbiosis.

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But neither to I hold to the notion that the parents objectively owe them anything.

Now that is very Hitler.

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To ascribe them rights opens a huge can of worms.

Again, very nazi-Hitleresque. People have rights - even small peoples. Otherwise, lets just take yours away, shall we?

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I think it is bizzaro just how far out of context one sentance can be taken just to make a point.

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No one said that a relationship must suffer because of children.

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And ethics tend to be completely subjective.

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ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

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ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

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ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

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Any healthy relationship places children above all other needs and wants.

Accepting your opinion that I live in an unhealthy relationship I see this resulting in an ultimately unhappy or at least frustrating life not only for you and your partner but for the children as well.

Placing children above all means that you're making decision favoring them over your relationship. What happens when they are adults? Does your commitment to them place the responsibility of your happiness and contentment on them? At that point would you then put your relationship on a priority status should your partner agree to wait for that passage of time? What if, realizing how good it is/was, and finding no similar reliable emotional, physical, economic, "you come first" benefactor they never leave or rebound? At that point would you try to make them function outside your influence, 18, 21, 25, 40?

I agree.

I have never understood the "what about the children" cry and the idea of building the entire family around them. I mean, weren't you a couple before them? I think the core of the family is the couple, if they aren't stable and aren't happy nothing else is going to run smoothly or be happy.

Nobody (and by that I mean me) said that being stable as a couple isn;t important to children - but now see - I see your statement as putting the children above anything else. It's there in black and white. If the relationship is healthy and and stable you already are bulding the family around them and yourselves.

They are your dependants, just as your s-types are.

I did not say 'what about the children'. There is no pity for children and I find that completely inappropriate . I also find it unethical(trying to stick with the OP) that you are putting words in my mouth. What I have said is that if you can't be responsible for children - .DONTHAVETHEM.

Yes, you may have been a couple before them (sometimes-but this isn't exclusive) - but if you want to remain only a couple and not take others into consideration, then don't have dependants. Is it ethical to take on a s-type you wouldn't place your own welfare above if it meant it wasn't detrimental to that s-type? Is it ethical to have dependants if ultimately you are going to put yourself above them when it may hurt them?

Examples -

So, your in a LDR relationship - it's fucking amazing. But you have children and they have school and college and friends and everything stable - you are going to uproot them from all that move to be with your partner because the relationship is more important and in the long run 'may' be the best thing? What about the other in the relationship moving to you? How about compromise? Or do you do you sit with them and discuss the situation and then do the best you can until the time to move is appropriate?

I am just so surprised by the selfishness of people frankly.

You don't want to make the odd sacrifce - then don't have children. Don't have a dog. Or a cat, or birds. Or neighbours. Or even friends.

It really is that bloody simple.

Peace

the.dark.

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ORIGINAL: aurora31

Okay on the children vs relationship thing I believe it is a matter of balance. I believe that you should put the children first but that does not always mean you cater to them, it is a matter of priorities. An example do you attend your child's graduation ( from what ever, grade school, high school, scouts, camp etc etc etc) or do you take a weekend to yourself. Most here I think would agree the graduation comes first. But if your child wants to have an impromptu sleep over and you have a weekend away planned then the weekend away is probably going to win out. Part of raising a well rounded independent adult is telling them no as kids and teaching them to deal with disappointment. To me this is putting the child first but not at the expense of the relationship.

aurora

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ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

Thanks again to everyone who understood the point I was getting at with the questions and contributed such wonderful replies without one line cliches or sidestepping the questions with posts about how the relationships arent ethical to begin with.

One of my secondary purposes of this thread was more to provide perspective into the fabric of M/S and D/S relationships...a perspective that is missing a lot.

By talking about the ethics and the big issues in a M/S and D/S relationship, one can see from the replies that the majority of the relationships here are not very different from the average vanilla relationship.

The perspective (or misconception) of the powerful Master who fulfills his desires and the passive and humble slave who's only purpose is to serve changes to two equal adults in a healthy relationship, not much different then the average vanilla one, but with the aspects of authority, service, and S/M worked into them.

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ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

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ORIGINAL: BossyShoeBitch
Dark,
I completely disagree with you.  Many people make the mistake of giving to their children at the expense of the marriage. The real answer is to give to the marriage. Ultimately this is what will benefit our children the most.

I understand your point, however children do not ask to be created.  If you can't have a good marriage and have children, don't have children - it is that simple.

 

If you are a dominant in a poly relationship that includes numerous s-types, you don't favour one over the other if you want harmony and productivity - you deal with everyone on the same level unless it is pre- agreed that there is one s-type over another.

When you have children, they don't get to make that agreement.  If you are in a relationship and you decide to have children - as long as they are your dependents you do what is right for them - otherwise you are acting irresponsibly in having them in the first place.  You have a child, you are accepting responsibility for that dependant... you can't selfishly want to procreate only to go - 'well, this will make me/us happy, fuck what happens to them'.  Thats like saying a dominant taking on a submissive then changing his mind later on and just doing what is best for him is completely ok if the s-type hasnt been prewarned and doesn't agree with it.

 

You can't handle the responsibility of having to care for someone - don't do it then.  If you can't handle having the responsibility and may have to make sacrifices and putting others above yourself on occasion - don't enter any relationship - and that includes a parent/child one.

 

Peace

the.dark.

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I think you may be getting a bit too emotionally attached to this question, Darcyandthedark. I wasn't commenting about you in particular but this fetish the culture has for the "think about the children" crap I hear every day.

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Any healthy relationship places children above all other needs and wants." and both and and Mercnbeth completely disagree with that. Offspring to be healthy functional adults than anyone wants to be around need to learn they are not the center of the universe. I've college students who grew up in these "offspring centered" families and frankly I'm not impressed at all at their lack of even basic coping skills.

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I find it ironic that as a culture we do this big display about how important offspring are and use the mantra that we should "think about" them whenever we don't like someone else's job or lifestyle. Yet when I look at our culture all I see is real confusion and even distain for them. I think what it really is is selfishness on the part of adults who feel they need those offspring yet do not want the responsibility to care for them. So they demand mechanical devices, laws, censorship, and that other conform to their idea of proper all so they can hide those offspring from reality and avoid the responsibility of teaching them to be adults

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ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

My two-cents on children......

Of course the relationship between the two parents/participants in the main relationship is important, but to then make the decision to bring a child into the world has to come with some responsibility to the offspring and must entail responsibility to the child.

I applaud Aswad for his recognition that he has no use for a child of his own, and is actively acting on that belief. If only other parents had the capacity or foresight to consider this before they bring something into the world that they clearly see as a burden rather than a wonderful addition to the unit. Kids aren't for everyone, which is fine.

A child does not choose who its' parents are, which is a shame because frankly I see people on an almost daily basis who should never become parents because they do not have the intelligence, the sense of responsibilty or the commitment to devote a good portion of their existence (particularly in the early years) to the life they have created. A child should be nurtured and cared for and taught and loved, and if you see your children as a burden rather than a blessing then frankly you might as well give them up for adoption and let someone who really wants to care for them take over while you focus on your relationship at hand. (Which is fine, not everyone has what it takes to be a parent, it's just a shame so many of these people seem to have children.)

As for children being a parasite, I echo what .dark. said in that you actually choose to have these small creatures live inside you (even if you are anti-abortion and the pregnancy is an accident you are still choosing by way of your beliefs to have the child) - they don't suddenly turn up one day out of thin air. There is a mutual benefit in the whole relationship - the child is nurtured, taught and supported, and the parent(s) gain joy from seeing their offspring grow and develop (and again, if they don't then put them up for adoption and get yourself sterilised perhaps?). (Props again to Aswad for recognising that a child would not benefit his relationship and vice versa.)

To conclude, by all means put your own relationship first above the welfare and wellbeing of your child, but they are your legacy and the future, and thus entirely your responsibility to fuck up or otherwise. I personally look forward to the day when the two I have an influence on look back and reflect on the positive influence I am hopefully having on them.

Darcy