RE: omg!!! TRAFIIC CAMERAS SUCK!!!

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RE: omg!!! TRAFIIC CAMERAS SUCK!!! - 7/6/2007 6:00:23 AM

farglebargle

Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: dragone

Hi, A friend of mine, getting off work, jaywalked accross the street to his car; cop saw him, drove up to him, asked for ID...which equated to his driver's license, wrote him up for jay-walking; a 200 dollar fine.

So, as Quitelyseeking would have it, if my friend should have refused to sign the ticket. He would be 'detained'; the cop and he would stand there, looking at one another I suppose. Till when?

Your driver's license is your ID which tells the officer you are a real person, without ID you are a non-person, and Bye, Bye. A police card, a green card, something on your person must prove you exist.

Free Men and Women don't Carry Papers.

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to dragone)

Post #: 121

RE: omg!!! TRAFIIC CAMERAS SUCK!!! - 7/6/2007 6:09:46 AM

Alumbrado

Posts: 5560
Status: offline

quote:

i was questioning HOW are they legal.

If you do something in plain view of the cops, it is pretty much a given that it is legal for them to bring you before a judge, and tell the court what you did...
a camera in this case is merely serving the purpose of being a different sort of reporting agency to the courts...also telling a judge what you did in plain view, i.e. in a public place like an intersection.

(in reply to LadyEllen)

Post #: 122

RE: omg!!! TRAFIIC CAMERAS SUCK!!! - 7/6/2007 8:33:48 AM

uwinceismile

Posts: 365
Joined: 5/29/2007
Status: offline

alum,
while i understand your point. the camera doesnt show who is driving. i guess id feel better if it did, so i could go to court and hold up thier own evidence, and say, it isnt me ...lol
all it shows is a vehichle in the intersection, and a closeup of the tag .....

(in reply to Alumbrado)

Post #: 123

RE: omg!!! TRAFIIC CAMERAS SUCK!!! - 7/6/2007 9:42:58 AM

slaveish

Posts: 1086
Joined: 2/19/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SubinMaine

Serious question, so bear with me. i certainly understand the reason the camera's are in place, but what happens if, say, you let someone borrow your car and they run a red light. It's considered a moving violation and the only info the authorities have to go on is the lisence plate. So, the owner of the car gets the moving violation even though they weren't driving?

I don't know about everywhere, but here it wasn't considered a moving violation. People love to blow yellows, the city (at the camera company's suggestion) speeded up the yellow-to-red time. It was a ploy to MAKE MONEY, not to assign points. One couldn't go to the courthouse to pay the fine either - had to mail it in. It didn't matter who was driving the car. Whoever was responsible for the car got the ticket.

_____________________________

You only lose what you cling to. ~~Gautama Sidharta

If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other. ~~Mother Teresa

(in reply to SubinMaine)

Post #: 124

RE: omg!!! TRAFIIC CAMERAS SUCK!!! - 7/6/2007 12:27:33 PM

Alumbrado

Posts: 5560
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: uwinceismile

alum,
while i understand your point. the camera doesnt show who is driving. i guess id feel better if it did, so i could go to court and hold up thier own evidence, and say, it isnt me ...lol
all it shows is a vehichle in the intersection, and a closeup of the tag .....

And that is of course where the cop = camera analogy breaks down... you cannot ask the camera. 'Exactly what did the driver look like?', and 'Are you sure the person you saw driving is here in the courtroom today?' ala Perry Mason.

So the courts have cobbled together a bandaid that if your car was in operation on the public roads, you can be fined for it's operation, unless you can provide the stolen car report mentioned earlier, or some other alibi that would trump the picture of your car/tags.

.

(in reply to uwinceismile)

Post #: 125

RE: omg!!! TRAFIIC CAMERAS SUCK!!! - 7/6/2007 12:50:25 PM

SugarMyChurro

Posts: 1912
Joined: 4/26/2007
Status: offline

Alumbrado:

I disagree. There are many ways to confront this so-called camera witness. You can even force them to bring the camera to court and gather all manner of evidence through discovery about how the unit has been tested, maintained, etc.

The notion that you are guilty until proven innocent is sadly something americans have gotten used to but isn't in any way a part of our system of justice - not even in tax court! Most people do not realize that even in an administrative court like a tax court that a prosecutor has to lay a minimal evidentiary foundation.

FWIW, a ticket for running the red light in my area of the world is $360 - not entirely trivial.

I often fight traffic tickets - my goal is waste enough time and resources that even if I lose they don't necessarily win either. I have noticed a trend to include some kind of administrative fee in the final cost of the ticket which I think may be illegal attempts to make a person pay for the court time - in effect paying for their own prosecution.

BTW, my whole family fights these kinds of tickets - we consider it a political imperative.

< Message edited by SugarMyChurro -- 7/6/2007 12:55:15 PM >

(in reply to Alumbrado)

Post #: 126

RE: omg!!! TRAFIIC CAMERAS SUCK!!! - 7/6/2007 12:53:09 PM

dragone

Posts: 215
Joined: 5/29/2007
Status: offline

hi Alumbrado; The traffic camera can be disputed in court, the very pictures can be brought in by order, as exhibit to your support. But here we have a case of no visable driver, yet the car in violation, it's plates, and registered owner is and belongs to...smiley.

So, the only dispute smiley has is..."you can't tell if it is me or not."

So, what should the judge do..."okay, yeah, bye, no charge".
The law is there to prosecute, and is not on your side, you defend, they are not obliged to defend you.

There is a mythical quote...'you are inocent until proven guilty.' Ask any attorney, and they will laugh in your face. Why do you think there are attorneys in the first place?

The reality is, you must prove your inocence, beyond a reasonable doubt of guilt.

In this case, Smiley says you cannot see the driver; the court says, yes, true, but the vehicle registration proves you are the legal owner, by the plates issued to you. People do not just willy nilly get into any vehicle and drive away to their hearts content, keys being left in the car for just anyone.That would constitute auto thieft. Smiley never filied an auto thief report. But the camera didn't show Smiley..true, but who else could it be, if someone else drove the car at that time, if you lent the car to someone,where is he/she? Smiley could bring no one to the court. Smiley says "but it's a camera', court says, "yes, photographic proof positive."....like an eye witness.

A traffic stop by a uniformed officer is a technical 'arrest'. The very word means to stop an action, to arrest, stop a movement, to hinder to proceed. or...it could mean...take a nap...no, that's a-rest.

(in reply to Alumbrado)

Post #: 127

RE: omg!!! TRAFIIC CAMERAS SUCK!!! - 7/6/2007 1:04:19 PM

Alumbrado

Posts: 5560
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

Alumbrado:

I disagree. There are many ways to confront this so-called camera witness. You can even force them to bring the camera to court and gather all manner of evidence through discovery about how the unit has been tested, maintained, etc.

The notion that you are guilty until proven innocent is sadly something americans have gotten used to but isn't in any way a part of our system of justice - not even in tax court! Most people do not realize that even in an administrative court like a tax court that a prosecutor has to lay a minimal evidentiary foundation.

FWIW, a ticket for running the red light in my area of the world is $360 - not entirely trivial.

I often fight traffic tickets - my goal is waste enough time and resources that even if I lose they don't necessarily win either. I have noticed a trend to include some kind of administrative fee in the final cost of the ticket which I think may be illegal attempts to make a person pay for the court time - in effect paying for their own prosecution.

BTW, my whole family fights these kinds of tickets - we consider it a political imperative.

You can force them to provide records attesting to the accuracy and reliability of any piece of equipment, but you cannot bring your twin brother to court and ask the camera which one of you was driving that day. (a similar trick was tried successfully in Virginia a few years ago.. the judge was irate, but had to let the defendant go when the officer pointed to the wrong person).

(in reply to SugarMyChurro)

Post #: 128

RE: omg!!! TRAFIIC CAMERAS SUCK!!! - 7/6/2007 2:02:45 PM

dragone

Posts: 215
Joined: 5/29/2007
Status: offline

Hi again, You are absolutely correct; in the item of 'You are inocent until proven guilty'; what is believed...however, when you get this ticket, you have been proven guilty... charged with violation, and sentenced, ...You are guilty as charged, sentenced to fine.....you have the right to challenge, however, for you to challenge the ticket equates to you...proving your inocence. If you cannot prove your inocence you pay.

On the 'You are inocent until proven gulity' the court would have to provide you with the prosposed charge of violation, it not yet being decided, and provide you with the proof. We are talking a very fine line of interpetation of the law; whereas now, you are simply ordered to pay, and the evidence is provided. But they always give you the option to dispute; and along with that option, the warning that should you wish to contest the evidence and lose, you will be subject to this and that fees and costs, etc. whereas, being inocent, there should be no cost, unless you lose.

The last part; of administrative costs...nail on the head guy, absolutely correct.

Now, a sidenote; the jews, herded to the camps, actually had to purchase their own train tickets. If the poor Jew could not afford the ticket, a fund was set up, to pool the moneys required for the ticket.

Hey Alambrado...more claims, ...extrodinary. Look it up, do some research.

Sorry SugarmyChurro, but I just had to remind this person, of another thread dispute; Sorry, I am weak. I won't do it again.

(in reply to SugarMyChurro)

Post #: 129

RE: omg!!! TRAFIIC CAMERAS SUCK!!! - 7/6/2007 5:00:31 PM

uwinceismile

Posts: 365
Joined: 5/29/2007
Status: offline

unfortunately, we dont get he luxury of a court date...its pay, or lose privelidge...
all dont thru the mail.....quite a nifty set up actually. wish i had thought of it, as i am a capitolist ;) lol

(in reply to dragone)

Post #: 130

RE: omg!!! TRAFIIC CAMERAS SUCK!!! - 7/6/2007 5:02:02 PM

uwinceismile

Posts: 365
Joined: 5/29/2007
Status: offline

to be more clear,,i could go to court, but for a 75 dollar ticket??? losing a days pay over thet is no choice really....
at least not for me

(in reply to dragone)

Post #: 131

RE: omg!!! TRAFIIC CAMERAS SUCK!!! - 7/6/2007 6:16:52 PM

dragone

Posts: 215
Joined: 5/29/2007
Status: offline

Hello Smiley; all this fuss over a 75 buck ticket, hell man, a family of 4 at Mickey D spends that much, or there about. I'd pay it and so what. However, the thing that may cost you is the insurance hike.

Take care good Buddy.

(in reply to uwinceismile)

Post #: 132

RE: omg!!! TRAFIIC CAMERAS SUCK!!! - 7/6/2007 9:26:59 PM

Alumbrado

Posts: 5560
Status: offline

quote:

Hey Alambrado...more claims, ...extrodinary. Look it up, do some research.

I have. You have not.
You cannot handle even the simple task of spelling my name right... I'll stick to the already supported presumption that you are equally inept on everything else.

(in reply to dragone)

Post #: 133

RE: omg!!! TRAFIIC CAMERAS SUCK!!! - 7/7/2007 7:24:30 AM

dragone

Posts: 215
Joined: 5/29/2007
Status: offline

Hello Alumbrado; Please supply the URL's, and other source material for your facts.

(in reply to Alumbrado)

Post #: 134

RE: omg!!! TRAFIIC CAMERAS SUCK!!! - 7/7/2007 9:54:01 PM

uwinceismile

Posts: 365
Joined: 5/29/2007
Status: offline

hey lone ranger,
its not the money.. i have a lil of that .
i just dont like that they can create a system that is patently unfair. hell, if i do something wrong, i have no issue with stepping up...but when im sitting on the beach with my kids,,,and i return home to see ( i ) have broken a traffic law in or around my hometown...and i was actually 200 miles east???its a lil disconcerting
nontheless, i pay, again, just a part of doing business.

(in reply to dragone)

Post #: 135

RE: omg!!! TRAFIIC CAMERAS SUCK!!! - 7/7/2007 10:11:23 PM

HaveRopeWillBind

Posts: 514
Joined: 7/15/2006
Status: offline

Toledo, Ohio was an early adopter of red-light cameras. They at first put up only a few, but I recall reading in the Toledo Blade about a year later that the city planned to expand it's red-light camera coverage because each camera was generating around $35,000 per week in fines. The same issues of who was driving the car came up so they just added another camera to simultaneously take a shot of the driver from the front. These things are going to be part of the American landscape it appears.

(in reply to dragone)

Post #: 136

RE: omg!!! TRAFIIC CAMERAS SUCK!!! - 7/7/2007 10:18:39 PM

thompsonx

Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: uwinceismile

to be more clear,,i could go to court, but for a 75 dollar ticket??? losing a days pay over thet is no choice really....
at least not for me

uwinceismile:
For the same $75 you could buy a pair (front and back plate) of those special covers that only allow your plate to be read from directly in front or directly in back of your vehicle. Then you can go through as many red lights as you have the courage to try.
thompson

(in reply to uwinceismile)

Post #: 137

RE: omg!!! TRAFIIC CAMERAS SUCK!!! - 7/7/2007 11:02:13 PM

uwinceismile

Posts: 365
Joined: 5/29/2007
Status: offline

lol,
thompson,,,its never really been my goal to run red lights my friend

(in reply to thompsonx)

Post #: 138

RE: omg!!! TRAFIIC CAMERAS SUCK!!! - 7/7/2007 11:55:39 PM

leakylee

Posts: 747
Joined: 7/2/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: uwinceismile

alum,
while i understand your point. the camera doesnt show who is driving. i guess id feel better if it did, so i could go to court and hold up thier own evidence, and say, it isnt me ...lol
all it shows is a vehichle in the intersection, and a closeup of the tag .....

now this was the reason, though i cant remember if it still holds, why Orlando didnt put the cameras in. so many people raised hell about this exact point, and with public transportation nonexsistant, the whole idea got scrapped. of course alot of that might also be something to do with the amount of rental cars running around here.

god forbid the tourons are scairt...

_____________________________

I am so not right, that I left..

(in reply to uwinceismile)

Post #: 139

RE: omg!!! TRAFIIC CAMERAS SUCK!!! - 7/8/2007 5:35:39 AM

Alumbrado

Posts: 5560
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: dragone

Hello Alumbrado; Please supply the URL's, and other source material for your facts.

For the fact that a traffic camera cannot answer direct questions? Either you are the most inept troll ever, or you are in an alternate reality.

(in reply to dragone)

Post #: 140

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