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RE: Reality is... - 7/9/2007 1:14:13 PM

TallDarkAndWitty

Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elorin
Hours spent together on phone or computer isn't a fantasy. The only fantasy is what you do in your head "together" while you jerk off. The actual time spent together isn't fantasy, nor are the conversations shared, and the connections formed.

In 30 years, there will be hardware and software sophisticated enough to reproduce all of the interactions you are experiencing in your hours of conversations. The connections exist only in your head...you are not actually being touched, or embraced, or felt. It is fantasy, and only appears not to be if you don't have reality to compare it against.

quote:

Maybe the problem here is your use of the world real.

Or maybe the problem is your use of the word real.

quote:

A fantasy is something you dream up.

That is one type of fantasy. Another is what the John is thinking as he fucks the prostitute. Another is what the abused wife tells herself as she cakes on the make-up to cover her black eye. Another is the relationship created out of text messages and webcams.

quote:

I didn't dream up 2 years of knowing a sub online before he became my submissive and came to meet me in person. Those weren't fantasies. The online "scenes" we had were fantasies, but the relationship wasn't, nor were the conversations or phone calls.

So you didn't build up any false ideas of who he was before you met? Everything was exactly like you dreamed (or should I say fantasized) it would be? I find that hard to believe...

quote:

Different, but real and valid.

Again you bring up validity when no one else has...what does being real have to do with being valid?

Taggard

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Post #: 141

RE: Reality is... - 7/9/2007 1:26:26 PM

Elorin

Posts: 970
Joined: 8/22/2004
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty
In 30 years, there will be hardware and software sophisticated enough to reproduce all of the interactions you are experiencing in your hours of conversations. The connections exist only in your head...you are not actually being touched, or embraced, or felt. It is fantasy, and only appears not to be if you don't have reality to compare it against.

It is only fantasy if I'm claiming ot have been touched, embraced, or felt. You seem to be assuming that the hours I spend on conversation are all spent cybering. I'm someone with years of experience in BDSM relationships in person. I HAVE reality to compare online relationships to. I KNOW that I haven't tied someone up, spanked them, or fucked them, and I don't imagine that I have.I know that an online only relationship isn't the same as a flesh relationship. That doesn't mean it isn't REAL - just that it isn't flesh.

quote:

Or maybe the problem is your use of the word real.

I'd love to see the definition you use for real versus unreal. Please do share.
For me, real means truly existing, instead of pretending. A pretend relationship is one I have with Sean Connery, or with an imaginary friend. A relationship I have with another human being via the internet and telephone is NOT a fantasy. It truly exists. I'm not creating the other person with my mind, I can provide concrete proof like phone bills, phone numbers, e-mails, and chat logs to establish the conversations and connections have occurred.

quote:

That is one type of fantasy. Another is what the John is thinking as he fucks the prostitute. Another is what the abused wife tells herself as she cakes on the make-up to cover her black eye. Another is the relationship created out of text messages and webcams.

I can't agree with you on this one. The relationship exists. It just isn't the same as one formed face to face in the flesh.

quote:

So you didn't build up any false ideas of who he was before you met? Everything was exactly like you dreamed (or should I say fantasized) it would be? I find that hard to believe...

Actually, I don't tend to assume what someone will be like, or project things onto him. When I first met my submissive in person, he was polite and mannerly, as he seemed online. He was naive and inexperienced with women, as he seemed online. He was truly 6'4" tall, he was truly the age he claimed (verifiable with his driver's license), and he could truly fix computers like he claimed. He had the same sense of humor, the same avid fascinations with anal play and CBT, and a lot of the same computer geeky dorky personality traits.
If you find it hard to believe that someone imposes what they "want" someone to be onto someone they haven't met yet, fine. Here is someone who does. If you find it hard to believe that I learned things about someone online that actually turned out to be true, fine. Here is someone who does. Just because lots of people create a fantasy in their head of what someone else is doesn't mean that everyone does.

quote:

Again you bring up validity when no one else has...what does being real have to do with being valid?

Real and valid are used interchangeably by a lot of people. Many people mean "you are invalid" when they say "you are not real."
And many of those who judge and criticize online relationships are challenging the validity of the relationships. I may be the only person using the word valid but I don't think I'm the only person who has brought it up, only with other words.

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Post #: 142

RE: Reality is... - 7/9/2007 1:30:28 PM

littlesarbonn

Posts: 1710
Joined: 12/3/2005
From: Stockton, California
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God, I hate when people try to respond to someone's post by taking it apart line by line. An opinion isn't argumentation to be picked apart piece by piece, but to be understood as a whole. It's like arguing with someone who uses a method from the 1980s. And this ends up being an opinion versus an opinion. You're NEVER going to be right.

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Post #: 143

RE: Reality is... - 7/9/2007 1:32:07 PM

chellekitty

Posts: 3923
Joined: 3/27/2005
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quote:

A pretend relationship is one I have with Sean Connery, or with an imaginary friend.

hey hey hey...leave Sean and Zip out of this...its as real as it can be...

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Post #: 144

RE: Reality is... - 7/9/2007 1:43:59 PM

Elorin

Posts: 970
Joined: 8/22/2004
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: chellekitty
hey hey hey...leave Sean and Zip out of this...its as real as it can be...

Ok your relationship with Sean Connery can be real. Mine is fantasy...trust me. ~grinnin~
Never met your zip, but I'm awfully fond of Madame Fosters! I want an Eduardo!!!

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Post #: 145

RE: Reality is... - 7/9/2007 1:51:08 PM

TallDarkAndWitty

Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elorin
It is only fantasy if I'm claiming ot have been touched, embraced, or felt.

That wouldn't be fantasy, that would be delusion. Fantasy is when you embelish a relationship with features that simply are not present.

quote:

You seem to be assuming that the hours I spend on conversation are all spent cybering.

I am not assuming anything about your relationship at all. I have nothing against cyber. At least those who cyber don't think they are not participating in a fantasy.

quote:

That doesn't mean it isn't REAL - just that it isn't flesh.

Hmm...there is an old cliche, "in the flesh"...one of it's meanings is "real".

quote:

I'd love to see the definition you use for real versus unreal.

Real, in this context, means non-fantasy. It means built on something physical.

quote:

A pretend relationship is one I have with Sean Connery, or with an imaginary friend.

I think you are again confusing fantasy with delusion.

quote:

A relationship I have with another human being via the internet and telephone is NOT a fantasy.

The internet and telephone are communication tools (and quite imperfect ones at that), not relationship tools. Perhaps if you got off the computer more, you'd notice the distinction.

quote:

I can provide concrete proof like phone bills, phone numbers, e-mails, and chat logs to establish the conversations and connections have occurred.

The Bunny Ranch in Reno, Nevada gives out receipts too...at least that is what I hear. *wink*

quote:

The relationship exists.

Does it? Obviously you can prove you spent time communicating with one another electronically, but what proof is there of a relationship? The simple truth is that until you actually meet, you have no idea who you are speaking to or chatting with. It could be a machine, or a woman. Was Roxanne's relationship with Christian real or was she really in love with Cyrano?

quote:

He was truly 6'4" tall

So is wasn't Domiguy then...

quote:

Just because lots of people create a fantasy in their head of what someone else is doesn't mean that everyone does.

Everyone does, it is human nature.

quote:

Real and valid are used interchangeably by a lot of people.

And a lot of people think Burger King is fine dining. I would hope we are better than that... *smile*

Taggard

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Post #: 146

RE: Reality is... - 7/9/2007 1:58:38 PM

TallDarkAndWitty

Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: littlesarbonn

God, I hate when people try to respond to someone's post by taking it apart line by line.

And why is that?

quote:

An opinion isn't argumentation to be picked apart piece by piece, but to be understood as a whole.

No it isn't.

quote:

It's like arguing with someone who uses a method from the 1980s.

If my acid wash jeans are still cool, so is my debate method.

quote:

And this ends up being an opinion versus an opinion.

That is just your opinion.

quote:

You're NEVER going to be right.

Some people don't come here to be right. Some people don't argue to convice others, but rather to bring their own arguments into focus. I couldn't not care less what Elorin or whomever I am arguing with thinks. From her first post, I knew she had nothing to offer me but a sounding board that I could throw my ideas against and see how they came back. If you don't like it, don't read it.

Taggard

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Post #: 147

RE: Reality is... - 7/9/2007 2:11:51 PM

Elorin

Posts: 970
Joined: 8/22/2004
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty
The internet and telephone are communication tools (and quite imperfect ones at that), not relationship tools. Perhaps if you got off the computer more, you'd notice the distinction.

Nice attempt at insult.

quote:

quote:

I can provide concrete proof like phone bills, phone numbers, e-mails, and chat logs to establish the conversations and connections have occurred.
The Bunny Ranch in Reno, Nevada gives out receipts too...at least that is what I hear. *wink*

In other words, when a man says he's fucked a woman at the Bunny Ranch, he can prove it's not fantasy. He can prove it's real. He didn't imagine it.

quote:

Does it? Obviously you can prove you spent time communicating with one another electronically, but what proof is there of a relationship? The simple truth is that until you actually meet, you have no idea who you are speaking to or chatting with. It could be a machine, or a woman. Was Roxanne's relationship with Christian real or was she really in love with Cyrano?

Your point is granted - you can fall in love with a lie and a creation based on lies. Does that mean you aren't in love, or does it just mean that someone lied? My proof of a relationship is that I change my behavior because the person is in my life, I interact with them regularly, and I feel strongly towards them. An online only relationship can't provide anymore "proof" of a relationship than a flesh one can. Except a body beside me - and that's not proof of a relationship, it's just a body beside me.
What proof can you provide of a relationship in the flesh? "Look here's a ring" - something someone online could send me. "Look, here's a baby" - something I can get from a one night stand. "Look, here's a picture of him" - I can get those too.

I decline to participate further in this debate with you Taggard, because you seem to define words like "real", "relationship", "valid" and "fantasy" differently than both the common usage, and than the dictionary. The same goes for phrases like "in the flesh".

Each time I try to point out a definition, you choose another word to use for which you use a definition that is non-standard and doesn't exist.

I'll accept, Taggard, that for you, fantasy, reality, relationships, and in the flesh only mean what you choose to have them mean. Too bad you don't use definitions that give you things in common with anyone else.

~Elorin

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Post #: 148

RE: Reality is... - 7/9/2007 2:17:05 PM

TallDarkAndWitty

Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elorin

In other words, when a man says he's fucked a woman at the Bunny Ranch, he can prove it's not fantasy. He can prove it's real. He didn't imagine it.

So you think the man had a "real" relationship with the whore? You think there was no fantasy involved?

quote:

Does that mean you aren't in love

No, but it does mean that your love was based on fantasy.

Taggard

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A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.

My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

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Post #: 149

RE: Reality is... - 7/9/2007 2:38:29 PM

littlesarbonn

Posts: 1710
Joined: 12/3/2005
From: Stockton, California
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty

Some people don't come here to be right. Some people don't argue to convice others, but rather to bring their own arguments into focus. I couldn't not care less what Elorin or whomever I am arguing with thinks. From her first post, I knew she had nothing to offer me but a sounding board that I could throw my ideas against and see how they came back. If you don't like it, don't read it.

Taggard

That's where we're different. I come here to read what other people have to say, not to broadcast only what I have to deliver to the masses. I care what Elorin says. I even care what people say, even if I don't normally agree with them. I gave up on you mainly because it's too annoying to read your insultive style of cutting up someone's full paragraphs so you can make childish retorts. I learned a long time ago that insultive humor actually isn't funny but to the lowest common denominator of society. But you don't care, so what's it matter anyway?

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Post #: 150

RE: Reality is... - 7/9/2007 2:48:12 PM

TallDarkAndWitty

Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: littlesarbonn
But you don't care, so what's it matter anyway?

Good point!

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Post #: 151

RE: Reality is... - 7/9/2007 5:26:32 PM

teamnoir

Posts: 226
Joined: 4/5/2005
From: San Francisco Bay Area California
Status: offline

In my opinion, the issues are radically different between online and rt relationships.

Certainly the issues and types of play are hugely different.

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Post #: 152

RE: Reality is... - 7/9/2007 7:24:30 PM

stella40

Posts: 417
Joined: 1/11/2006
From: London, UK
Status: offline

Intimacy isn't just about lying naked next to someone in a bed, being able to stick one's face in someone's genitals or engaging in play.

Intimacy is also being able to share with another person all that you hold deep within you, those innermost feelings, those secrets that you hold within, intimacy is being completely open, honest and emotionally transparent with another person.

And you can do that just as much online as you can in real life. In fact, there are some who have real issues with being intimate with anyone in real life.

A relationship is about feelings, it's about being able to communicate, being able to interact, and it's that depth of feeling and intimacy you share with someone which decides whether it's a relationship or not.

It's got nothing to do with how you communicate, how much time you spend with each other, how many times you meet, but it's how you FEEL towards that other person.

This is an international community. Relationships can be formed across great distances, between states and even between countries and continents. Not always can you jump in your car and drive to a coffee shop to meet that other person.

Some people are in online relationships which they plan to change to real time when they've got the opportunity. Not everyone can go from a couple of e-mails to real time.

The idea that when someone switches off a computer then the relationship ends is in my opinion ridiculous and preposterous. And does this also mean that when we switch off the computer and television the fighting stops in Iraq as well?

Starting a relationship this way may not be to everyone's tastes, but it doesn't and shouldn't take any of the value away from the relationships of the people who do.

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Post #: 153