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RE: Old Guard? - 7/24/2007 7:06:51 AM

LuckyAlbatross

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quote:

ORIGINAL: awmslave
I consider "old guard" practitioners having two major priciples: strict protocol and no switching. I personally value these principles.

No switching in old guard...that's a new one for me.

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RE: Old Guard? - 7/24/2007 7:13:18 AM

Rover

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

ORIGINAL: awmslave
I consider "old guard" practitioners having two major priciples: strict protocol and no switching. I personally value these principles.

No switching in old guard...that's a new one for me.

In today's vernacular, "Old Guard" traditions are made up on the fly.

John

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RE: Old Guard? - 7/24/2007 7:51:13 AM

Archer

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"Those who 'switch' are second class players and not to be taken as seriously because they haven't made their minds up. If you must switch, do so in another town."

The Old Guard (The History of Leather Traditions) by Guy Baldwin M.S.
linked in post #3 or 4 I think.

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RE: Old Guard? - 7/24/2007 7:56:49 AM

windchymes

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

"Those who 'switch' are second class players and not to be taken as seriously because they haven't made their minds up. If you must switch, do so in another town."

The Old Guard (The History of Leather Traditions) by Guy Baldwin M.S.
linked in post #3 or 4 I think.

Sounds like a homophobe to me

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RE: Old Guard? - 7/24/2007 8:08:22 AM

LuckyAlbatross

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer
"Those who 'switch' are second class players and not to be taken as seriously because they haven't made their minds up. If you must switch, do so in another town."

The Old Guard (The History of Leather Traditions) by Guy Baldwin M.S.
linked in post #3 or 4 I think.

Which means it happened, and happened often enough for a social standard to be created around it. Obviously the ones who chose to switch in that culture didn't think they were second class players :)

That would be like saying men didn't fuck men in the 50s just because they were ignored, castigated and made second class citizens.

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RE: Old Guard? - 7/24/2007 8:10:57 AM

Rover

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

"Those who 'switch' are second class players and not to be taken as seriously because they haven't made their minds up. If you must switch, do so in another town."

The Old Guard (The History of Leather Traditions) by Guy Baldwin M.S.
linked in post #3 or 4 I think.

I'm well aware of the passage. And frankly, it doesn't differ substantially from what a great many folks think today. It's nothing unique to "Old Guard". It is a value judgment, not a prohibition.

John

P.S. - It can reasonably be said that all of the "Old Guard" switched, in that they entered service as bottoms/slaves and via meritocracy achieved Master/Top status.

< Message edited by Rover -- 7/24/2007 8:12:06 AM >

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RE: Old Guard? - 7/24/2007 8:15:17 AM

atendersoul

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CeltricPrince has given the most respectful meaning to this posting here and it is welcome in seeing for someone has asked for the education....Respect, trust and truth was always of this Way and in many ways the foundations of what is the Path of today.....
Many involved in this Old Guard also were poly families that continued this practice into the future generation and having been involved in this style most of my life, you can find some have gone into Gorean now...
thank You CelticPrince for the honest answer.....

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RE: Old Guard? - 7/24/2007 8:16:56 AM

GhitaAmati

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I have "really" tried to stay quiet in this one for a while, but I cant. Ok, my mentor is a 45 year old gay male, his mentor is a 75 year old gay male (who happens to still be around and teaching actually, wonderful man, although in the hospital for some liver problems right now). Daddy Clyde has taught an awful lot of people over the years, and passed down his thoughts, philosophies, protocols, and everything else that just happens to be rolling around in his mind at the time. He would be the first to laugh at you if you suggested the term "Old Guard" to him. From the way he explained it to me, Old Guard is a term used to describe the "romanticized" version of the beginnings of Leather. No one back then would have ever labeled anything they did in that way, and there wasnt quite a cohesive community like there is today, so different groups had different protocols all over the place. The similarites came about because they all come out of the same military, and thats where most of the traditions came from. The idea that everyone started out at the bottom and worked their way up, which is no where near "switching" as its defined today. Yes, many Tops did the same things bottoms did, but only to prove their worth to the community, not because it was their "position".

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RE: Old Guard? - 7/24/2007 8:22:15 AM

Rover

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quote:

ORIGINAL: atendersoul

CeltricPrince has given the most respectful meaning to this posting here and it is welcome in seeing for someone has asked for the education....Respect, trust and truth was always of this Way and in many ways the foundations of what is the Path of today.....
Many involved in this Old Guard also were poly families that continued this practice into the future generation and having been involved in this style most of my life, you can find some have gone into Gorean now...
thank You CelticPrince for the honest answer.....

I was not aware that Gor had become heavily populated with gay male Leathermen. You learn something new every day.

John

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RE: Old Guard? - 7/24/2007 8:25:10 AM

Rover

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CelticPrince

What is missing so far is the evolution of the pricipal that were practiced by the "Old Guard" / trust, respect, honor and a few other considerations such as protocols.

Those sound like core values for the US Marine Corps, which are documented and can be read by anyone. Is there any documentation to your assertion that they were inherent to "Old Guard"? And if so, please direct me to it so that I may be enlightened.

John

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RE: Old Guard? - 7/24/2007 8:30:05 AM

GhitaAmati

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John, in all honestly....really studying Gor is actually a hobby of quite a few "leathermen" I know...there are enough similarities to make it an interesting read. Sometimes I wonder if it isnt natural for hetero's who are interested in Leather but cant really find a place for themselves if their local community is primarily gay male still....to automatically lean towards Gor. Ive seen it often enough but I dont know if I can really say there is a corrolation.

As for the "Marine Corps" values vs. Leather values....remembering that military played a key role in shaping the original "Leather" communities, is it a shock that they would be similar?

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RE: Old Guard? - 7/24/2007 8:33:51 AM

Rover

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Thanks for your contribution, Ghita. Daddy Clyde sounds like an exceptional gentleman, and I do hope one day to have the pleasure of meeting you, and him. I have no doubt that he has much to share, and I have much to learn.

What people forget is that people like Daddy Clyde are still around today, and that the recollections of many hundreds and thousands (living and dead) have been documented. Those recollections along with artifacts, memorabilia, contemporaneous writing, etc. reside in places like the Leather Archives & Museum (www.leatherarchives.org). The LA & M resides in Chicago, and anyone interested in Leather history is welcome to visit, just like any museum. Writers and historians have studied those collections, interviewed survivors, and written extensively about this period.

I'm not sure how anyone can credibly dispute documented factual history. But then, the internet is not bound by the constraints of fact and truth.

John

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RE: Old Guard? - 7/24/2007 8:38:48 AM

vield

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Many authors have written many things which can be quoted. Whether or not one agrees with a quote is one's own business.

One widely known description of "Old Guard" was World War 2 vets who gathered into gay male motorcycle clubs. In these clubs a person seeking to join had to serve any of the current membership as he was told to do. If he served all well enough he could "win" his leathers, and attain status to the point where possibly other newer men might serve him.

I believe status ranks in these groups worked a lot like military ranks, so one earned a place in the system and one served any of higher status who asked you to and one used anyone of lower status as one chose. Consensuality was NOT a requirement, but obediance was.

Naturally some people would seek to always submit, some would seek to always dominate, and some would accept their position serving some and dominating others.

There are lots of places in the scene where somebody figures they need someone to look down on, so many groups get singled out as second class kinksters by people who do not like their point of view. This includes bi's, switches, crossdressers, transgendered, gays, lesbians, straights, swingers, age players, spankers, nonspankers, ethnic groups and many, many others. My personal thought is that as long as your kink involves adults who knowingly consent to it, have FUN!

I may or may not have an interest in what you like, and I may or may not do what you like myself, but your consensual choices are not my business!

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RE: Old Guard? - 7/24/2007 8:40:32 AM

GhitaAmati

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What I think gets disputed, John, is alot of those writings try to set everything into black and white, either some things happend or they didnt. And we all know good and well that not everyone follows the mainstream. I am sure there "were" men who were part of that original post WWII community who didnt do things the same way everyone else did, so does that make them any less a part of that cultures history? Not in my mind but Im sure it does to some.

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RE: Old Guard? - 7/24/2007 8:42:29 AM

Rover

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GhitaAmati

John, in all honestly....really studying Gor is actually a hobby of quite a few "leathermen" I know...there are enough similarities to make it an interesting read. Sometimes I wonder if it isnt natural for hetero's who are interested in Leather but cant really find a place for themselves if their local community is primarily gay male still....to automatically lean towards Gor. Ive seen it often enough but I dont know if I can really say there is a corrolation.

I would find that argument more compelling if there were more real time Gorean communities. In fact, they're scarce.

quote:

As for the "Marine Corps" values vs. Leather values....remembering that military played a key role in shaping the original "Leather" communities, is it a shock that they would be similar?

That would be a much stronger intuitive argument, and there is ample documentation to suggest that they placed great value on honesty, for example. But then, so does the local gardening club. There's nothing that suggests their moral standards were any higher than any other group of people who associated with one another.

It's true that their shared military experience was pervasive in their lives. Many of the local rules and customs (note that they were local in nature and therefore not identifiable as representing "Old Guard" as a whole) dealt with appearance (or "uniform" in a military sense). I seem to recall that Guy Baldwin listed about fifty rules in his local scene, and about 48 of them were specifically related to appearance. I'm sure someone can come up with the specific passage, but as I am at work I don't have the time right now.

John

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RE: Old Guard? - 7/24/2007 8:47:24 AM

Rover

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GhitaAmati

What I think gets disputed, John, is alot of those writings try to set everything into black and white, either some things happend or they didnt.

The problem, in my view, is the portrayal of a unified code amongst all the "Old Guard" groups. By portraying a unified code, one can claim it to *be* "Old Guard". But the reality is (as you have noted) that each group operated independently in relative isolation. And in doing so, they developed their own local codes and customs.

Consequently, it's not black and white because there isn't anything that anyone can point to and say "that's Old Guard".

John

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RE: Old Guard? - 7/24/2007 8:53:50 AM

chellekitty

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always fun to stick your foot in your mouth...but it was with good intentions...

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RE: Old Guard? - 7/24/2007 8:56:46 AM

GhitaAmati

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

quote:

ORIGINAL: GhitaAmati

John, in all honestly....really studying Gor is actually a hobby of quite a few "leathermen" I know...there are enough similarities to make it an interesting read. Sometimes I wonder if it isnt natural for hetero's who are interested in Leather but cant really find a place for themselves if their local community is primarily gay male still....to automatically lean towards Gor. Ive seen it often enough but I dont know if I can really say there is a corrolation.

I would find that argument more compelling if there were more real time Gorean communities. In fact, they're scarce.

I apologize, I didnt mean they went and found more real time communities, I only meant I see alot of newcomers who are interested in the protocols and structure of leather, also study and read quite a bit on Gor

quote:

As for the "Marine Corps" values vs. Leather values....remembering that military played a key role in shaping the original "Leather" communities, is it a shock that they would be similar?

That would be a much stronger intuitive argument, and there is ample documentation to suggest that they placed great value on honesty, for example. But then, so does the local gardening club. There's nothing that suggests their moral standards were any higher than any other group of people who associated with one another.

At the time, probably not...but now, do you really think moral standards in society as a whole are the same now as they were back then? Thats part of the "romanticized" things of "Old Guard". Same as folks dream about courtly knights and chivalry. Im not saying I know whats going on in the minds of everyone out there, just what Ive seen in my one small community here in Florida. Do I think the Leather community was built "Around" those values? No, they were just a part of those men that came naturally. But now, its part of the draw.

It's true that their shared military experience was pervasive in their lives. Many of the local rules and customs (note that they were local in nature and therefore not identifiable as representing "Old Guard" as a whole) dealt with appearance (or "uniform" in a military sense). I seem to recall that Guy Baldwin listed about fifty rules in his local scene, and about 48 of them were specifically related to appearance. I'm sure someone can come up with the specific passage, but as I am at work I don't have the time right now.

I do know the passages you are reffering to, and Ive had alot of peope comment on it, after reading some of the "leather" writings, notice that a good bit was on dress and apperance...and other common courtesy things like introductions and they always ask..."there has to be more to it doesnt there?" My answer always is that the rest has to be learned from your experiance and not out of a book...but then im a smart aleck on most days anyway

John

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RE: Old Guard? - 7/24/2007 9:14:46 AM

spankmepink11

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I think of " Old Guard" as one of the cornerstones in the evolution of BDSM but not singularly so.
I think many younger dominant men who claim to be "Old Guard" are just looking for a way to glorify themselves, or make their relationship style...etc more special, or valid....supreme...whatever grandiose adjective that fits...in some way . I do know of several of my own age or older who seemed to have followed many traditions and protocols along the way, passed down much like Celeste's Grandmothers candy recipe. (no offense to anyone intended...my opinions have no impact on how anyone chooses to live or describe their own personal dynamic)

On a side note....i think John is much more attractive than Larry Hagman.

Edited to clarify (hopefully) and to correct a blanketing statement.

< Message edited by spankmepink11 -- 7/24/2007 9:57:45 AM >

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RE: Old Guard? - 7/24/2007 9:16:15 AM

Grlwithboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GhitaAmati

What I think gets disputed, John, is alot of those writings try to set everything into black and white, either some things happend or they didnt. And we all know good and well that not everyone follows the mainstream. I am sure there "were" men who were part of that original post WWII community who didnt do things the same way everyone else did, so does that make them any less a part of that cultures history? Not in my mind but Im sure it does to some.

Additionally, geography and interest creates as much diversity then as now. Look at the films of Kenneth Anger - there's ALWAYS been a struggle between a perceived "rigid established order" in leather and a percieved "new crazy kids with their heads up their butts" disorder. West Coast versus East Coast culture was different in musical styles, expression of every possible kind, and I'm certain in approach to leather, too.

I'm hardly going to dispute Guy Baldwin's list, but clearly it didn't speak for everyone. Eventually, women were included, just as an example. Someone split from the rulebook, or that's just one set of rules. How can you possibly categorize someone like Cynthia Slater as "not included" in that history?

Equally as important, I think, is the parallel history of fetishists and femdom - some of it well documented because of the overlap with the prodomination industry. These forces sometimes overlapped lightly.

< Message edited by Grlwithboy -- 7/24/2007 9:23:09 AM >

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