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RE: Old Guard? - 7/24/2007 11:04:17 AM   
Archer


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Rather than trying to pop psycology his life based on an isolated line quoted without much context why not gather the available information, 4 or 5 books worth at least and then make an educated guess at his mental health.

(in reply to Archer)
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RE: Old Guard? - 7/24/2007 11:06:27 AM   
chellekitty


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cause the former sounds much more fun and though highly innacurate, exciting than the latter?

(in reply to Archer)
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RE: Old Guard? - 7/24/2007 11:19:27 AM   
windchymes


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Yes, a little bit of fun was the only intent, no insults to any parties were intended, at least on my part. 

But, I will say that, based on my own personal experience with those who proclaim to be Old Guard, I feel no sense of awe or respect simply because they do so. 

_____________________________

You know it's going to be a GOOD blow job when she puts a Breathe Right strip on first.

Pick-up artists and garbage men should trade names.

(in reply to chellekitty)
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RE: Old Guard? - 7/24/2007 11:21:39 AM   
Archer


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Actualy I was a bit catty with that last bit. My appologies.


< Message edited by Archer -- 7/24/2007 11:27:44 AM >

(in reply to windchymes)
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RE: Old Guard? - 7/24/2007 11:43:09 AM   
BitaTruble


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~FR~

When I think "Old Guard" I think leather and chaps, Master Tops, gay guys, biker hats and uniforms,  anonymous fucking, being on your knees and submitting to a whip,  handkerchiefs or keychains in the right or left pocket. All that stuff makes me hot and pushes my buttons. When I hear Old Guard it reminds me of the smells of sex and leather. Two of my favorite things. When I hear Old Guard is doesn't instantly bring the words honor and integrity to my mind. More like glory holes and bootblacking, dark, seedy, dangerous.

::shivers:: It's just yummy. I don't have to worry about what the term conjures up in any else's mind.. I know what it does to my own and that's more than enough.

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


(in reply to Archer)
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RE: Old Guard? - 7/24/2007 1:02:44 PM   
windchymes


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

Actualy I was a bit catty with that last bit. My appologies.



No apologies necessary, didn't take it that way at all! 

_____________________________

You know it's going to be a GOOD blow job when she puts a Breathe Right strip on first.

Pick-up artists and garbage men should trade names.

(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 86
RE: Old Guard? - 7/24/2007 1:06:08 PM   
Wickad


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(fast reply)

As to the 'rules' of Old Guard .... (channelling here best Cpt. Barbossa) I like to look at them as more of a series of ... guidelines rather than rules - he he he.  Sorry folks, but I couldn't resist that - lol.

But in all seriousness ... I am part of a Leather household.  The founder of our household is a somewhat 'generationally removed', under 50, heterosexual, Old Guard trained leatherman.  He, of course, does not identify as Old Guard (he is a capped however) and he would never make claims to his lineage as such, but for the sake of argument, I will - lol.  His mentor was trained by an Old Guard leatherman.  His mentor is a capped gay leatherman ( I doubt he'd readily identify as Old Guard himself, either). Our household is regimented and does try to live up to the spirit of those who have come before us.  There is an influence of Old Guard in our thinking and in the way we view the world.  We are not Old Guard.  We are Leather.

The traditions that have been handed down from one Master to another to another do date back to the Old Guard tradition.  Have these protocols and traditions changed from when they were first 'cooked up'?  Yes, of course they have.  Our society has changed and there are not as many reasons for many of the protocols outlined in Guy Baldwin's and other's writings.  Conversely, there are other protocols which address today's reality and simply did not exist right after WWII - the internet, growing heterosexual BDSM, growing acceptance of BDSM and homosexuality, etc.

A bit of a rant ....

I always find it rather annoying when a thread is started on this site about Old Guard.  Rarely do you get the dialogue that has been happening here.  Mostly, you seem to get a series of snide remarks that deride those people who would endeavour to pay respect to one (of the many) founding traditions of our current BDSM world (yes, I'm hopeful for the world - lol).  I have met a few folks who claim to be Old Guard and are a 20yr old, heterosexual male.  I've also met a few women who claim to be Mistresses who are in fact glorified whores.  Just as the 'Mistress' is not a factual representation of what Female Domination is all about, niether is the 'old guard' child a realistic representation of what the Old Guard tradition is about.  I'm glad this thread has developed in the way it has.  Education and discussion about a topic are always better than a simple flame war based out of ignorance or mis-understanding.

.... end of rant.

Thank-you everyone for your fantastic contributions.

Wickad

(in reply to BitaTruble)
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RE: Old Guard? - 7/24/2007 1:36:04 PM   
Rover


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wickad

The traditions that have been handed down from one Master to another to another do date back to the Old Guard tradition. 


I don't have much of an issue with your post, with this exception.  What your Master knows, and what was passed down to him, may indeed date back to the "Old Guard" period.  But they are one Leatherman's traditions, that may (or may not) reflect one Leatherman's group's traditions.  But it's impossible for them to be representative of ALL Leatherman's traditions, just as any one individual today does not represent all of BDSM.
 
Where people go astray is to portray "Old Guard" as a singular, unified set of traditions.  That's patently false. 
 
John

_____________________________

"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to Wickad)
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RE: Old Guard? - 7/24/2007 6:53:24 PM   
Wickad


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Possibly I forgot to add "'their' Old Guard tradition'.  I do agree that Old Guard doesn't come with an instruction manual and that it very much took on the flavour of the people and places involved.

Wickad

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wickad

The traditions that have been handed down from one Master to another to another do date back to the Old Guard tradition. 


I don't have much of an issue with your post, with this exception.  What your Master knows, and what was passed down to him, may indeed date back to the "Old Guard" period.  But they are one Leatherman's traditions, that may (or may not) reflect one Leatherman's group's traditions.  But it's impossible for them to be representative of ALL Leatherman's traditions, just as any one individual today does not represent all of BDSM.
 
Where people go astray is to portray "Old Guard" as a singular, unified set of traditions.  That's patently false. 
 
John

(in reply to Rover)
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RE: Old Guard? - 7/24/2007 10:02:40 PM   
Alumbrado


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quote:

Mostly, you seem to get a series of snide remarks that deride those people who would endeavour to pay respect to one (of the many) founding traditions of our current BDSM world (yes, I'm hopeful for the world - lol)....


Well in the vein of 'imitation being the sincerest form of flattery', you are right, and are certainly generous as to the motives of some current claimants of Old Guard status.

But some people are just begging to have snide remarks made about them and who am I to deny them their due?

(in reply to Wickad)
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RE: Old Guard? - 7/24/2007 11:06:12 PM   
AdventurousLife


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When Guy Baldwin talks about "Switches" he's talking about people who, literally, can't make up their mind, or switch as the mood strikes them.

However, Switching as it's commonly used today was a matter of course. It would not be unusual to have a situation of three guys named Steve, Bob and Jim, where Jim is collared by Bob, and Bob is topped by Steve. Steve and Bob are both Masters, but when Steve and Bob play, Bob is always the bottom. Why this is the arrangement can depend on a variety of factors (and not based on some sort of a rules system.) Typically, Jim and Bob would be the couple here and Steve would be an occasional friend, or past Top of Bobs. But the relationship would be fixed-- they wouldn't "switch" in the sense that Bob would never top Steve, Jim would never top either of them. But Bob was always top to Jim and bottom to Steve.

Bob is not a "switch" his relationships stay constant.


(in reply to Alumbrado)
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RE: Old Guard? - 7/25/2007 5:16:33 PM   
thornhappy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

The "Formal Leather Dinner" stories have that kernnel of truth to them that all good myths have. There most certainly were dinner parties amoung Leather People, and you can be sure they were based on "Dinning In's" from the shared military service background. Now Dinning In's are not what most people thik about as "formal" They are fun ties where formal manners are practices on pain of penalty. Point of Order Mr Vice. The Chair recognizes Archer I have just witnessed the most horrid display of poor manners by Mr Rover. I witnessed him place his napkin on the table and then return to his chair after excussing himself to the facilities and place his napkin back in his lap. As all Gentlemen of refinement know a napkin never returns to the table until after the meal has been finished so that the other guests don't see scraps of food or smudges on it. Mr Rover how do you plead. Guilty Mr Vice I lost my mind and did not pay attention to detail and throw myself on the mercy of the court. We the court find you guilty and being mercifull sentance you to a mear 3 fingers from the grog bowl.

Now doesn't that sound much more in keeping with the rough and tumble image of a bunch of Leathermen than some boring formal dinner. LOL


and never, ever, choose the non-alcoholic grog.  evil things reside there, like miniature marshmellows.  impossible to drink in one attempt.  you are thereby sentenced to more grog.

oh yeah, don't forget to salute before you leave the bowl!

thornhappy

(in reply to Archer)
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RE: Old Guard? - 7/25/2007 7:10:40 PM   
SimplyMichael


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You guys can be that new fangled Old Guard but I was trained by the very secretive "Older Guard" which unlike Old Guard traces its history back to WWI instead of WWII.  They are MUCH cooler!

< Message edited by SimplyMichael -- 7/25/2007 7:20:19 PM >

(in reply to thornhappy)
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RE: Old Guard? - 7/25/2007 7:38:42 PM   
Rockwell


Posts: 63
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

~FR~

When I think "Old Guard" I think leather and chaps, Master Tops, gay guys, biker hats and uniforms,  anonymous fucking, being on your knees and submitting to a whip,  handkerchiefs or keychains in the right or left pocket. All that stuff makes me hot and pushes my buttons. When I hear Old Guard it reminds me of the smells of sex and leather. Two of my favorite things. When I hear Old Guard is doesn't instantly bring the words honor and integrity to my mind. More like glory holes and bootblacking, dark, seedy, dangerous.

::shivers:: It's just yummy. I don't have to worry about what the term conjures up in any else's mind.. I know what it does to my own and that's more than enough.

Celeste


I think I'm going to like it here ;)

I was hoping to add a thought or so. Men: you have nailed it. Thanks.

and thanks to the lady who said it so well

(in reply to BitaTruble)
Profile   Post #: 94
RE: Old Guard? - 7/25/2007 10:25:44 PM   
NControlofU


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It's important when talking about "Old Guard" to think of it in some historical context.  Those who are referred to as Old Guard didn't go around calling themselves Old Guard, just as the "Founding Fathers" didn't go around calling themselves the Founding Fathers.  These terms were coined later on as a way to speak about these particular groups of men who had some shared characteristics, activities, etc.  The term Old Guard came into being to contrast the "New Guard" that was forming in the gay community.

It's also important to remember that during and after WWII, there wasn't the open acceptance of homosexuals in American society, as there is today.  It was before Gay Lib and before the sexual revolution and "free love" and homosexuals were kept in the closet, as much as possible.  The American Psychiatric Association listed homosexuality as a "sociopathic personality disturbance" in its official list of mental disorders.  Sodomy was a felony, police harrassed and raided the few gay bars that existed, and McCarthyism resulted in the federal government firing more workers for suspicion of homosexuality than for suspicion of communism.  Servicemen were being outed with dishonorable "Blue Discharges" with the stigmatization of being "sexual deviants".  Large numbers of these veterans were congregating in S.F., NYC, and other large cities, where they started forming gay brotherhoods and "Motorcycle Clubs" and they had a social network that they hadn't known before and were able to gain strength in numbers and become more visible and "open" in their homosexuality and started becoming more militant.  It was a different era.  So, even if the term Old Guard might sound cliche to some now, it had its place in history and in helping to make alternative lifestylers more visible and more accepted in society and in getting some archaic and oppresive laws overturned.
Some books, if interested: Bérubé, Allan: Coming Out Under Fire: The History of Gay Men and Women during World War II. (New York: Free Press, 1990)Katz, Jonathan Ned: Gay American History: Lesbians and Gay Men in the U.S.A.: A Documentary History. (Rev. ed. New York: Meridian, 1992)Harris, Daniel: The Rise and Fall of Gay Culture (Hyperion, 1997)Townsend, Larry: The Leatherman's Handbook (1972) and The Leatherman's Handbook II (Carlyle Communications, 1983 &1989)Randy Shilts and William Greider: And the Band Played On: Politics, People, and the AIDS Epidemic. (St. Martin's Press, 1987)Thompson, Mark, editor: Leatherfolk -- Radical Sex, People, Politics, and Practice (Alyson, 1991)
Baldwin, Guy: Ties That Bind (Daedalus, 1993):
Califia, Pat, and Robin Sweeney, editors: The Second Coming -- A Leatherdyke Reader (Alyson, 1996)
Bean, Joseph: Leathersex (Daedalus, 1994) and Leathersex Q&A (Daedalus, 1996)
Johnson, V. M.: To Love, To Obey, To Serve - Diary of an Old Guard Slave (Mystic Rose Press, 1999) 
Essays:
Old Guard vs. New Guard VANGUARD by Joseph Stanley  http://www.sc-lock.com/editorials/oldguard_newguard.htm
Old Guard? If You say so., by Joseph W. Bean http://www.iron-rose.com/IR/docs/old_guard.htm
Old Guard New Guard http://www.iron-rose.com/vijohnson/docs/blic1197.htm















(in reply to Rockwell)
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RE: Old Guard? - 7/26/2007 1:05:52 AM   
AdventurousLife


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I think this is a perfect example of the hetero bdsm community--- straight male doms bashing the gay leather tradition without knowing the first thing about it.

< Message edited by AdventurousLife -- 7/26/2007 1:40:27 AM >

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
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RE: Old Guard? - 7/26/2007 5:26:15 AM   
Rover


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AdventurousLife

I think this is a perfect example of the hetero bdsm community--- straight male doms bashing the gay leather tradition without knowing the first thing about it.


Do you really think so?  I think those of us who actually know a bit about Leather history have no trouble whatsoever in acknowledging the indispensible contributions of gay Leathermen to the foundation and development of the BDSM of today. 
 
I think it's those who are ignorant of Leather history that create an elaborate fantasy history.  But in their ignorance, they're unable to bash gay Leathermen because they don't know the first thing about them.  It's hard to bash what you don't know even existed.
 
John
 
P.S. - It's good to see a few new faces making informed contributions to Leather history threads.

_____________________________

"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to AdventurousLife)
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RE: Old Guard? - 7/26/2007 6:01:01 AM   
Rockwell


Posts: 63
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In regard to the discussion on switching:   I consider myself a switch now but I am a work in progress.

I have a bias against myself. I wouldn't trust - me?

I understand leather boys became men at a certain point. Maybe that's where I am?

Thanks, Zac
-yeah my real name 
edit- "Bob is not a "switch" his relationships stay constant. " -Adventuouslife     - YES, exactly. Not everyone gets the point, thanks for that.




< Message edited by Rockwell -- 7/26/2007 6:09:18 AM >

(in reply to Rover)
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RE: Old Guard? - 7/26/2007 6:03:29 AM   
chey


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Rover how did I know I would find you in this thread?

I do not have enough knowledge on this subject to add anything new or profound, I simply wanted to say that when I come across a dominant who claims Old Guard I tend to walk the other way. I would prefer for him to describe his own philosophies and allow me to learn about who he is through conversation. I am not impressed by the claim and if anything it makes me question his grip on reality. That is not to say he isn't completely sane and a great guy. If he is into protocol or the Old Guard traditions (whatever those happen to be....I did say I have little knowledge on this subject) then I will soon find that out as we get to know each other. One of the biggest reasons I think I feel this way is that, although I do not know a lot about Old Guard I have always heard how they did not go around saying they were Old Guard for whatever reason. So to me it comes across as a pick up line, whether this is the intention or not. I love intelligent men, if I met a man who continued to brag to me about how intelligent he was I would be turned off. Let me find out how intelligent you are.


(in reply to Rover)
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RE: Old Guard? - 7/26/2007 6:05:59 AM   
Rover


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quote:

ORIGINAL: chey

Rover how did I know I would find you in this thread?


Because you know me?  :)
 
John

_____________________________

"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to chey)
Profile   Post #: 100
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