RE: To be a slave you must suffer, who the hell made this rule?!

RE: To be a slave you must suffer, who the hell made this rule?! (Full Version)

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welshwmn3 -> RE: To be a slave you must suffer, who the hell made this rule?! (8/2/2007 9:49:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave See this is where picking a compatable Master comes in handy, he would never do such things which is one of the reasons I took his collar to begin with, so this would never be an issue or something he would do, just like I wouldnt pick a Master who thought it ok to cut an arm off. if he would do such things I would no longer be with him because we would not be compatable. One of the reasons I want to do anything for him is because he wont have me do things that would harm or truely upset me... ms It sounds very safe of you to say you'd do anything for him then. Since you know he would never ask/require you to do anything that would truly upset you, it's really easy to say, "I'll do anything for him." And, from your words above, it sounds like, if he decided he wants to do something you really don't want to do, you'll reconsider your submission. Just what it sounds like from what you wrote above.

Rover -> RE: To be a slave you must suffer, who the hell made this rule?! (8/3/2007 5:26:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave See this is where picking a compatable Master comes in handy, he would never do such things which is one of the reasons I took his collar to begin with, so this would never be an issue or something he would do, just like I wouldnt pick a Master who thought it ok to cut an arm off. if he would do such things I would no longer be with him because we would not be compatable. One of the reasons I want to do anything for him is because he wont have me do things that would harm or truely upset me... I hope not to be perceived as dogpiling, as it's my intention to view this from a slightly different perspective. It's this type of convoluted reasoning that brings some submissives/slaves to the conclusion that they have no rights, no limits, etc. It's the stuff of fictional erotic novels, and while you could make an argument for its relevance to a philosophical discussion, it has no place in discussions beyond the theoretical. To include the subject matter of another thread (and it might be interesting to read if/how you responded there, but I'm really not so interested to devote the time), what if your Master feels that you must "suffer" a bit in order to "truly" be submissive, prompting him to ask you to do some of those things that you were absolutely certain he'd never ask you to do? (Do I get an award for that run-on sentence?). Just some food for thought. John

thetammyjo -> RE: To be a slave you must suffer, who the hell made this rule?! (8/3/2007 7:33:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: useu4good Suffering is not normally something one would do of their own accord. If a slave suffers for her master, it shows her committment. Not necessarily. It could demonstrate a fetish she has -- at those moments, no thrill, but later big thrill. It could demonstrate a belief she has about being a slave or what that means -- which is what I think the OP was talking about. It could demonstrate that she feels unable to do otherwise. It could demonstrate that she knows no other way and thus it never pops into her mind that things should be different. It only means and demonstrates what it means and demonstrates for each individual and dynamic. I don't think we can make an absolute statement of what suffering for slaves means.

Wildfleurs -> RE: To be a slave you must suffer, who the hell made this rule?! (8/3/2007 9:00:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SusanofO Wildfluers: Okay. Fine with me if that's what you believe. You may have a point. But, I think maybe you misunderstood my post (perhpas I wasn't very clear, either). So are you saying you don't think it would be a wise move to know if somone is a Sadist before getting involved with them? Also please define your concept of the term "Suffering". In the answer to your question, no. In fact I don't think my post dealt at all with getting to know someone and whether they are a Sadist. My post strictly dealt with your question, "Aren't people who truly appreciate the suffering of other's Sadists?" quote: *Does "Suffering" mean simply being asked to do something you don't like - or does it mean having your "Limits" completey violated? (please don't tell me you "don't have any "Limits". Even if you have your Master's limits, because you're a slave - you still have some "Limits", I imagine.) Suffering to me would be the latter, not the former. Edited to clarify, I think of the two examples you gave, suffering would fit into the latter, not the former. C~

Wildfleurs -> RE: To be a slave you must suffer, who the hell made this rule?! (8/3/2007 9:07:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BeingChewsie Using quick reply: I don't consider anything he demands of me or uses me for to be suffering. Comfort zone or not, difficult or not, like it or not, the fact remains when he is done I'm still breathing, I'm OK, I still live in relative luxury with a man I adore and worship, there is food in the fridge, we have health insurance, the bills are never overdue, my kiddo gets the best of everything, R takes care of everything, when I leave the Island and to go to work, I work with homeless and mentally ill substance abusers..now they suffer, life for them is not cake and pie...seeing them puts it all in perspective. I get what you are saying, and I actually think the term suffering is a bit...... dramatic and over the top. But I also think suffering is relative, go figure (a person in an impoverished third world country may find an American homeless persons life a blessing compared to theirs). C~

welshwmn3 -> RE: To be a slave you must suffer, who the hell made this rule?! (8/3/2007 12:20:15 PM)
Fast reply in answer to nobody: I've been thinking of the word 'suffering' and 'suffer'. I wasn't sure that I knew the dictionary definition of either. So I looked it up. According to dictionary.com: Suffering: 1. the state of a person or thing that suffers. 2. Often, sufferings. something suffered by a person or a group of people; pain: the sufferings of the slaves. Interestingly (to me at least), the synonyms are: agony, torment, torture; pain, distress Suffer: 1. to undergo or feel pain or distress: The patient is still suffering. 2. to sustain injury, disadvantage, or loss: One's health suffers from overwork. The business suffers from lack of capital. 3. to undergo a penalty, as of death: The traitor was made to suffer on the gallows. 4. to endure pain, disability, death, etc., patiently or willingly. –verb (used with object) 5. to undergo, be subjected to, or endure (pain, distress, injury, loss, or anything unpleasant): to suffer the pangs of conscience. 6. to undergo or experience (any action, process, or condition): to suffer change. 7. to tolerate or allow: I do not suffer fools gladly. For me, my submission does require me to suffer. Under the definitions of suffer, #1 (when I misbehave and he punishes me, I feel pain and distress), #4 (when he scenes with me, or any time that he tells me to kneel for punishment or painful pleasure, I do it willingly even when I'm not in the mood for it). As for the synonyms of suffering, agony, torment, torture, pain, distress are ALL in effect when he's whipping me, caning me, flogging me, using clamps on me or whatever. Even though I am a masochist, it's still pain (that eventually morphs into pleasure). But then real life gives me suffering too. I DEFINATELY have emotional suffering when I'm trying to balence the bankbook. So, do I suffer for my Sir? Yes. Is it part of my service towards him? Definately. Is it an "imature was to test [me]" on his part? No. Although his insistance lately of making me stay in position (kneeling, hands behind back) while he tickles me DEFINATELY takes the concept of suffering for my submission to him to a new (not fun) level. [sm=ugh.gif] Edit for formatting.

RavenMuse -> RE: To be a slave you must suffer, who the hell made this rule?! (8/3/2007 12:42:57 PM)
Not read the rest of the thread, responce to OP: Firstly define 'suffer'? Now to Me that has connotations of HARM, I have a duty of care for My girl, I will hurt but I do My damndest to ensure I never harm her and that doesn't just mean physicaly. Looking at it selfishly, if I break My toys I can't play with them any more. Will I have My girl do things she doesn't like or doesn't want to do, of course I will. she has submitted her choises and if I want something, so long as it won't harm her then she will submit to it. It isn't the 'suffering' as you label it, but rather the level and extent of her submission that matters. she may not like or want the action or activity but she has a NEED to submit, wants and draws pleasure from the fact those things are 'for Me' I Own ALL of My girl and when in the mood to do so I will enjoy ALL of her, including her pain, fear and tears not just her smiles, fun and orgasmic moans. I seek (And look to have maybe found again) a girl who needs to give that, needs to submit to that extent. My slave, My possession, My girl [:)]

MagiksSlave -> RE: To be a slave you must suffer, who the hell made this rule?! (8/3/2007 2:34:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: welshwmn3 quote: ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave See this is where picking a compatable Master comes in handy, he would never do such things which is one of the reasons I took his collar to begin with, so this would never be an issue or something he would do, just like I wouldnt pick a Master who thought it ok to cut an arm off. if he would do such things I would no longer be with him because we would not be compatable. One of the reasons I want to do anything for him is because he wont have me do things that would harm or truely upset me... ms It sounds very safe of you to say you'd do anything for him then. Since you know he would never ask/require you to do anything that would truly upset you, it's really easy to say, "I'll do anything for him." And, from your words above, it sounds like, if he decided he wants to do something you really don't want to do, you'll reconsider your submission. Just what it sounds like from what you wrote above. A lot of what i wrote yesterday was written while angry and was very defensive. Not very well thought through eather. He has asked me to do things i would rather not do, I have done them, but they didnt make me suffer, they didnt thrill me eather and I would have rather not done them. I didnt mean to give the impression that I have never done things I didnt want to do for him, but then again i have done the same things for friends and family, I dont really view it as suffering i view it as part of my obligation to them, and it was never done just for the sake of maikeing me do something i didnt want to do, it was done because it was something he needed or wanted done and not just to see me suffer. So please do forgive (and maybe forget?? LOL) the things I wrote yesterday, I wasnt thinking well and my brain was clouded by anger (and really not at what people wote here, I came here in an already bad mood do to some life issues, came here to unwind and that really didnt work out) The post that triggerd the attacks (and Im not refering to the personal one made by Kyra which I still feel was unwarented and mean spirited)was written poorly and most deffinetly could have been worded in a way that didnt make me seem as if i was beeing judmental and condeming becuase I wasnt or at least I wasnt trying to be, I admit that was my mistake and I didnt mean to offend people. I personaly dont like testing and dont like to be tested have had very bad experianses with it and let that cloud my writeing when writeing on the subject, i do still feel that testing is not something I want in my relationship however but thats just me. ms

fairerthanshe -> RE: To be a slave you must suffer, who the hell made this rule?! (8/3/2007 2:38:07 PM)
Greetings ms, forgiven and forgotten...what were we talking about? everybody has bad days, don't let it eat at you. Hope today is better. hugs ~ fairer

MagiksSlave -> RE: To be a slave you must suffer, who the hell made this rule?! (8/3/2007 2:46:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rover quote: ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave See this is where picking a compatable Master comes in handy, he would never do such things which is one of the reasons I took his collar to begin with, so this would never be an issue or something he would do, just like I wouldnt pick a Master who thought it ok to cut an arm off. if he would do such things I would no longer be with him because we would not be compatable. One of the reasons I want to do anything for him is because he wont have me do things that would harm or truely upset me... I hope not to be perceived as dogpiling, as it's my intention to view this from a slightly different perspective. It's this type of convoluted reasoning that brings some submissives/slaves to the conclusion that they have no rights, no limits, etc. It's the stuff of fictional erotic novels, and while you could make an argument for its relevance to a philosophical discussion, it has no place in discussions beyond the theoretical. To include the subject matter of another thread (and it might be interesting to read if/how you responded there, but I'm really not so interested to devote the time), what if your Master feels that you must "suffer" a bit in order to "truly" be submissive, prompting him to ask you to do some of those things that you were absolutely certain he'd never ask you to do? (Do I get an award for that run-on sentence?). Just some food for thought. John No I understand what you are saying and I always admited that when I said I have no limits I only ever ment i had no limits with Master and I always added that the reasons I had no limits with him is because our limits lined up and I knew he would never make me do something that I would consider a limit. I dont know what i would do if he ever asked me to do something i thought he would never ask of me, right now it isnt somethign I need to think about because we have put our M/s dynamic on hold as I mentioned in another thread. Though id like to say Id do it i think I may hesitate and worry becuase that would be very out of charector. The only things that he could ask that would really cause me to pause would be things of the nature of sleeping with another woman, or posably toilet play, those where things that he knows from the begining I had limits in and to do would porubly do a bit of emotional damage to me. Things he told me he would never forse me to do. At this point no I wouldnt do it for him but mostly because he would have no busyness asking me to do something of the nature as we arent doing M/s at the moment, and I would prolly be so confused by such a request Id faint, but there was a point (as close as just a few weeks ago) That we would have talked about it and seen if it was something that we could push past together, though he always respected when I had trouble, and couldnt push past something. Like with electrisity play, it was a hard limit when I started with Master, though we didnt get to far with it we did start makeing a break through and started playing lightly with an electric paddle... It didnt cause me to suffer because it was my choice to try and he stoped when it was going to far for me. ms

MagiksSlave -> RE: To be a slave you must suffer, who the hell made this rule?! (8/3/2007 2:47:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: fairerthanshe Greetings ms, forgiven and forgotten...what were we talking about? everybody has bad days, don't let it eat at you. Hope today is better. hugs ~ fairer ((hugs)) thanks!!! Yesterday was a doozie LOL, we live we learn, we move on...

MadRabbit -> RE: To be a slave you must suffer, who the hell made this rule?! (8/3/2007 2:49:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rover It's this type of convoluted reasoning that brings some submissives/slaves to the conclusion that they have no rights, no limits, etc. It's the stuff of fictional erotic novels, and while you could make an argument for its relevance to a philosophical discussion, it has no place in discussions beyond the theoretical. To include the subject matter of another thread (and it might be interesting to read if/how you responded there, but I'm really not so interested to devote the time), what if your Master feels that you must "suffer" a bit in order to "truly" be submissive, prompting him to ask you to do some of those things that you were absolutely certain he'd never ask you to do? (Do I get an award for that run-on sentence?). Just some food for thought. Edited to Add : I realize this was in response to MS's post, but I think the questions you are asking apply very much to the whole "suffering to prove slavery" thing so wanted to respond. I dont think its the reasoning itself that leads to people beleiving that they have no right or limits as a slave. I think its more that when we get into these types of discussions, people take it to the extremes of dismemberments, murder, death, crime, etc, etc. I've said several times in the other threads that just because I present this kind of theory or reasoning in my own dynamics, I am not dismissing boundaries or limits. I beleive relationships need to have boundaries and limits. A balance between challenge and boundaries. The real point behind what I am saying isnt that slaves NEED to suffer, but rather that people NEED to do things to do and be what they WANT. For example, not too long ago, I WANTED to change jobs and go to work for a very respectful corporation as a butcher. I WANTED to be an employee for these people. The corporation provided me with amazing benefits, tuition reimbursement for my degree of choice in college, and enough of a salary that I could live a comfortable lifestyle while balancing school and work. To be an employee, I NEEDED to do certain things. I had to cut my hair, adjust my life to accomdate new hours, wear a particular uniform, and worst of all....shave my beard. I was and still am deeply in love with my beard. Shaving it to become an employee was not an easy thing for me to do or something that I WANTED to do in the least. I was actually entertaining the notion of turning down the job to keep it. But I WANTED the job and this was something I NEEDED to do so...now I am beardless. It was more than hard to pick up the razor and change something that become a large part of my physical self image. I still rub my cheek and miss it. I still havent changed my picture on my profile to show me as beardless. But I've gotten used to it, I adapted, and moved past the small challenge presented to me to be what I WANTED. No dismemberments, no murder, no death, no sex with animals, no eating feces..., but a minor example of the concept I am getting at here in regards to a M/S dynamic. Now...if one day, my boss decides I should dress up in a clown costume and stand by the road with balloons and a sign, advertising our latest sale...well this is something I will NEED to do if I WANT to be an employee. The questions, however, will be. How bad do I want this job? Am I determined enough and capable of doing this? Can I move past the challenge presented to me to cash in on the benefits and oppurtunity I want? So...to answer your question...I think it comes down to communication, sincerity, and good judgement and benevolence on part of the dominant. Why do you not want to do this? What does this thing mean to you? How come you cant? I cant provide an answer for every single contigency we can think up in a thread like this. I dont have that kind of experience. I think some things can be moved past with time and other things wont ever happen. It comes down to the individual and caring about the best interests of that individual more than a lust and love of power.

Rover -> RE: To be a slave you must suffer, who the hell made this rule?! (8/3/2007 3:05:09 PM)
You make a persuasive case for the invalidity of absolutes. I'm sold. John

alecdom -> RE: To be a slave you must suffer, who the hell made this rule?! (8/3/2007 3:06:27 PM)
I have a submissive that confessed to me that from the moment I began to tie her up and use her body, or inflict pain upon her, she hated me more than anything else in her life. Fortunately, she said that it always went on long enough for that hate to turn to carnal lust and a wanton desire to be used as a complete slut. The suffering must be judged through the eyes of the sub. There have been entire weeks that she has been covered in horrific marks from her neck to her knees and her pain has been extreme. But, every morning and evening she stands naked in front of the mirror turning round and round with a broad smile, as she presses each of her marks, often wincing in pain. But then she knows that it makes me want her all the more.

MagiksSlave -> RE: To be a slave you must suffer, who the hell made this rule?! (8/3/2007 3:12:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: alecdom I have a submissive that confessed to me that from the moment I began to tie her up and use her body, or inflict pain upon her, she hated me more than anything else in her life. Fortunately, she said that it always went on long enough for that hate to turn to carnal lust and a wanton desire to be used as a complete slut. The suffering must be judged through the eyes of the sub. There have been entire weeks that she has been covered in horrific marks from her neck to her knees and her pain has been extreme. But, every morning and evening she stands naked in front of the mirror turning round and round with a broad smile, as she presses each of her marks, often wincing in pain. But then she knows that it makes me want her all the more. Yes you are right it boils down to how much suffering one will go through for a relationship, some people enjoy suffering... Me I feel there is enough suffering life will throw your way that I dont want to suffer extra to prove I am what I say I am, or to prove anything for that matter. There is enough manditory suffering in life that I think Ill op out of the optional suffering.. I guess it just hit a raw nerve to think that someone would say I need to suffer more because im a slave.. that didnt make sence to me, I dont think that a slave should have to suffer any more then any other person just because they are a slave.... But that is just what I think ms

Archer -> RE: To be a slave you must suffer, who the hell made this rule?! (8/3/2007 4:22:15 PM)
Suffering wouldn't have been my choice of words when posting the original concept of testing the actual limits of submission. ( I made an effort to avoid useing the word when I was addressing the subject) Also I think the other difference in the ideas we have been posting about is You seem to be looking at it as a matter of testing the S-type, while I am looking at it as a matter of testing how far the power exchange goes. I'm not testing the person I'm testing the relationship, at least in my mind.

shysoul -> RE: To be a slave you must suffer, who the hell made this rule?! (8/3/2007 5:25:22 PM)
..

MagiksSlave -> RE: To be a slave you must suffer, who the hell made this rule?! (8/3/2007 5:29:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Archer Suffering wouldn't have been my choice of words when posting the original concept of testing the actual limits of submission. ( I made an effort to avoid useing the word when I was addressing the subject) Also I think the other difference in the ideas we have been posting about is You seem to be looking at it as a matter of testing the S-type, while I am looking at it as a matter of testing how far the power exchange goes. I'm not testing the person I'm testing the relationship, at least in my mind. I think I understand what you mean... ms

KnightofMists -> RE: To be a slave you must suffer, who the hell made this rule?! (8/3/2007 5:34:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave The post that triggerd the attacks (and Im not refering to the personal one made by Kyra which I still feel was unwarented and mean spirited)was written poorly and most deffinetly could have been worded in a way that didnt make me seem as if i was beeing judmental and condeming becuase I wasnt or at least I wasnt trying to be, I admit that was my mistake and I didnt mean to offend people. I personaly dont like testing and dont like to be tested have had very bad experianses with it and let that cloud my writeing when writeing on the subject, i do still feel that testing is not something I want in my relationship however but thats just me. ms you are forgeting your Passive Aggressive Behavior as well and other things...

MagiksSlave -> RE: To be a slave you must suffer, who the hell made this rule?! (8/3/2007 6:28:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KnightofMists quote: ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave The post that triggerd the attacks (and Im not refering to the personal one made by Kyra which I still feel was unwarented and mean spirited)was written poorly and most deffinetly could have been worded in a way that didnt make me seem as if i was beeing judmental and condeming becuase I wasnt or at least I wasnt trying to be, I admit that was my mistake and I didnt mean to offend people. I personaly dont like testing and dont like to be tested have had very bad experianses with it and let that cloud my writeing when writeing on the subject, i do still feel that testing is not something I want in my relationship however but thats just me. ms you are forgeting your Passive Aggressive Behavior as well and other things... You really cant just let it go.... well that says more about you then it does about me. ms

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