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"Submission is a Gift" - 8/1/2007 5:21:29 AM

DawnFire

Posts: 78
Joined: 3/17/2007
Status: offline

I have just got to know, what is everyone's problem with the phrase, "Submission is a gift".

I see it several ways...

1. It could be used as a really bad excuse to getting out of something a submissive didn't want to do, IE "My submission is a gift, I could take it away." But then it wouldn't be a gift exactly, it'd be more like a loan, so "gift" still doesn't bother me.

2. It could be that one might see submission as a personality trait, and therefore have a problem with seeing it as a gift. If that's the case, we would have to define what submission means in each case. IE the gift of submission might be the "giving" of oneself over to their dominants control.

-In which case I still have no problem with the term

3. Submission as a gift may be seen as making the act of submission (a verb) into a noun... and the grammer of it all might really bother some people at a deeper level.

Really I'm just grasping at straws here... I'd really like to know.

-Dawn

Post #: 1

RE: "Submission is a Gift" - 8/1/2007 5:24:15 AM

michaelOfGeorgia

Posts: 4253
Status: offline

i've often thought of my submission as a curse. if it were a gift, you'd think someone out there would except it.

maybe i'm wrong about this, but i am curious if anyone else feels the same way..that submission can often times be a curse

< Message edited by michaelOfGeorgia -- 8/1/2007 6:14:59 AM >

_____________________________

Are we having fun, yet?

(in reply to DawnFire)

Post #: 2

RE: "Submission is a Gift" - 8/1/2007 5:54:03 AM

ExSteelAgain

Posts: 1803
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Georgia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DawnFire

2. It could be that one might see submission as a personality trait, and therefore have a problem with seeing it as a gift. If that's the case, we would have to define what submission means in each case. IE the gift of submission might be the "giving" of oneself over to their dominants control.

You made a good point right there, however, if one sees submission as a personality trait, why do you have to define what submission means in each case? If we are speaking in generalizations here, why do we need to get specific? Your last line about giving oneself to the control of a dominant is semantics play and makes less of a point.

_____________________________

You can paint a cinder block bright pastel pink, but it's still a cinder block. (By Me.)

(in reply to DawnFire)

Post #: 3

RE: "Submission is a Gift" - 8/1/2007 6:01:05 AM

Satyr6406

Posts: 820
Joined: 3/27/2006
From: New Brunswick, N.J.
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DawnFire

1. It could be used as a really bad excuse to getting out of something a submissive didn't want to do, IE "My submission is a gift, I could take it away." But then it wouldn't be a gift exactly, it'd be more like a loan, so "gift" still doesn't bother me.

-Dawn

Well, I guess if you believe that a submissive is supposed to "delegate" power. Once that power is "taken back", in my mind, they've withdrawn their submission and ended the relationship.

I'm not speaking in BDSM terms, here. I'm not talking about scening, where the bottom IS IN CONTROL. I'm talking about a D/s relationship where delegating power is NOT the same as submitting (in my opinion).

Peace and comfort,

Michael

_____________________________

Peace and comfort,

Michael

Former Vice-President Gore didn't invent the internet but, he DID make up global warming!

(in reply to DawnFire)

Post #: 4

RE: "Submission is a Gift" - 8/1/2007 6:13:48 AM

DawnFire

Posts: 78
Joined: 3/17/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ExSteelAgain

quote:

ORIGINAL: DawnFire

2. It could be that one might see submission as a personality trait, and therefore have a problem with seeing it as a gift. If that's the case, we would have to define what submission means in each case. IE the gift of submission might be the "giving" of oneself over to their dominants control.

You made a good point right there, however, if one sees submission as a personality trait, why do you have to define what submission means in each case? If we are speaking in generalizations here, why do we need to get specific? Your last line about giving oneself to the control of a dominant is semantics play and makes less of a point.

I guess my point is - that it's all semantics - if someone has a problem with a phrase, its a matter of semantics. If they have a problem with the meaning behind the phrase, that's an entirely different matter.

(in reply to ExSteelAgain)

Post #: 5

RE: "Submission is a Gift" - 8/1/2007 6:16:08 AM

Rover

Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline

As is the case with most BDSM terms, there's nothing even approaching consensus on the definitiion of "submission". And frankly, it depends upon what form you're even asking about.

There's submission as a function of who you are (ie: a natural expression of being yourself). There's submission as something you "do" (ie: something you enjoy for short periods of time, like a scene). There's submission as a relationship dynamic (ie: just to the one(s) of your choosing). There's submission as a personality trait (ie: submissive in all situations to all people).

Getting beyond the indefinite nature of the term itself, I'd note the following about its portrayal as a "gift":

1. I like the fact that viewed as a "gift", neophytes have a readily identifiable analogy that teaches them that it can be given solely to those of their choosing, and that they are not obligated to all Dominants.

2. I despise the analogy since "gifts" cannot be taken back once given, while submission surely can (and often is). Viewing submission as a "gift" is simply not representative of reality.

Consequently, I have a foot in both camps as it relates to the "submission as a gift" controversy.

John

_____________________________

"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to DawnFire)

Post #: 6

RE: "Submission is a Gift" - 8/1/2007 6:20:09 AM

DawnFire

Posts: 78
Joined: 3/17/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Satyr6406

quote:

ORIGINAL: DawnFire

1. It could be used as a really bad excuse to getting out of something a submissive didn't want to do, IE "My submission is a gift, I could take it away." But then it wouldn't be a gift exactly, it'd be more like a loan, so "gift" still doesn't bother me.

-Dawn

Well, I guess if you believe that a submissive is supposed to "delegate" power. Once that power is "taken back", in my mind, they've withdrawn their submission and ended the relationship.

I'm not speaking in BDSM terms, here. I'm not talking about scening, where the bottom IS IN CONTROL. I'm talking about a D/s relationship where delegating power is NOT the same as submitting (in my opinion).

Peace and comfort,

Michael

I agree that if a submissive were to "take back" their submission, they would no longer be my submissive.

I have heard a few people in various message boards explain that they hate the phrase for this reason. If you have a better way to combat this reason, I'm all ears.

(in reply to Satyr6406)

Post #: 7

RE: "Submission is a Gift" - 8/1/2007 6:20:35 AM

Alumbrado

Posts: 5560
Status: offline

It is not a gift, it is a loan...

And no amount of logic is going to put an end to some people 'having a problem' with leaving others to enjoy themselves as they see fit.

< Message edited by Alumbrado -- 8/1/2007 6:25:04 AM >

(in reply to Rover)

Post #: 8

RE: "Submission is a Gift" - 8/1/2007 6:23:22 AM

DawnFire

Posts: 78
Joined: 3/17/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

As is the case with most BDSM terms, there's nothing even approaching consensus on the definitiion of "submission". And frankly, it depends upon what form you're even asking about.

There's submission as a function of who you are (ie: a natural expression of being yourself). There's submission as something you "do" (ie: something you enjoy for short periods of time, like a scene). There's submission as a relationship dynamic (ie: just to the one(s) of your choosing). There's submission as a personality trait (ie: submissive in all situations to all people).

Getting beyond the indefinite nature of the term itself, I'd note the following about its portrayal as a "gift":

1. I like the fact that viewed as a "gift", neophytes have a readily identifiable analogy that teaches them that it can be given solely to those of their choosing, and that they are not obligated to all Dominants.

2. I despise the analogy since "gifts" cannot be taken back once given, while submission surely can (and often is). Viewing submission as a "gift" is simply not representative of reality.

Consequently, I have a foot in both camps as it relates to the "submission as a gift" controversy.

John

I love it. Thank you for a truly intellectually stimulating reply to my post.

(in reply to Rover)

Post #: 9

RE: "Submission is a Gift" - 8/1/2007 6:39:28 AM

domiguy

Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
Status: offline

Anyone who views submissiveness as being a gift has a tiny brain and a limited vocabulary.

_____________________________

(in reply to DawnFire)

Post #: 10

RE: "Submission is a Gift" - 8/1/2007 6:41:54 AM

Satyr6406

Posts: 820
Joined: 3/27/2006
From: New Brunswick, N.J.
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DawnFire

I agree that if a submissive were to "take back" their submission, they would no longer be my submissive.

I have heard a few people in various message boards explain that they hate the phrase for this reason. If you have a better way to combat this reason, I'm all ears.

The only way I know of to "combat" this is to take time to get to a know a submissive and try and make sure that they see things the same way you do.

I have stated, publicly enough and privately with ladies I consider to be potentials that I expect absolute submission. I'm not here for the BDSM entirely; that what's important to me is that the D/s dynamic be in operation at all times.

My profile states that I am exacting (at best). I expect the same considerations I give and I hold people to almost as high a standard as I hold myself.

Peace and comfort,

Michael

_____________________________

Peace and comfort,

Michael

Former Vice-President Gore didn't invent the internet but, he DID make up global warming!

(in reply to DawnFire)

Post #: 11

RE: "Submission is a Gift" - 8/1/2007 6:56:44 AM

windchymes

Posts: 9410
Joined: 4/18/2005
Status: offline

But if the recipient chooses to view it as a gift, it's his or her prerogative and they should be entitled to not have the concept constantly ridiculed.

_____________________________

You know it's going to be a GOOD blow job when she puts a Breathe Right strip on first.

Pick-up artists and garbage men should trade names.

(in reply to Satyr6406)

Post #: 12

RE: "Submission is a Gift" - 8/1/2007 7:13:59 AM

Rover

Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: windchymes

But if the recipient chooses to view it as a gift, it's his or her prerogative and they should be entitled to not have the concept constantly ridiculed.

Maybe, maybe not. While that may sound like a reasonable and laudable concept, in reality it's used to silence dissenting opinion. Not so good in my view.

If there's a public thread then everyone has the right to publicly express their opinion, pro or con. Those that desire to express their opinion without inviting public reply need to rent a roadside billboard.

John

< Message edited by Rover -- 8/1/2007 7:16:06 AM >

_____________________________

"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to windchymes)

Post #: 13

RE: "Submission is a Gift" - 8/1/2007 7:16:17 AM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

http://www.collarchat.com/m_725554/mpage_2/key_gift/tm.htm#725692
It ain't a gift

http://www.collarchat.com/m_539780/mpage_1/key_gift/tm.htm#539948
The gift of submission

http://www.collarchat.com/m_417971/mpage_2/key_gift/tm.htm#418195
submission is a gift!!!???

http://www.collarchat.com/m_285542/mpage_1/key_gift%252Csubmission/tm.htm#285542
If submission is a 'gift.' what's dominance?

http://www.collarchat.com/m_199872/mpage_1/key_gift%252Csubmission/tm.htm#199872
The Gift you give to yourself

http://www.collarchat.com/m_195087/mpage_1/key_gift%252Csubmission/tm.htm#195087
A gift???

http://www.collarchat.com/m_137582/mpage_1/key_gift%252Csubmission/tm.htm#137582
The Domly Gift

http://www.collarchat.com/m_135667/mpage_1/key_gift%252Csubmission/tm.htm#135667
Why do so many view submission as a gift?

http://www.collarchat.com/m_128811/mpage_1/key_gift%252Csubmission/tm.htm#128811
Do you consider your submission to someone a gift?

http://www.collarchat.com/m_118674/mpage_1/key_gift%252Csubmission/tm.htm#118674
Gift or not...

http://www.collarchat.com/m_109097/mpage_1/key_gift%252Csubmission/tm.htm#109097
The "gift" of submission

http://www.collarchat.com/m_26446/mpage_1/key_gift%252Csubmission/tm.htm#26446
On the gift of submission

http://www.collarchat.com/m_17487/mpage_1/key_gift%252Csubmission/tm.htm#17487
my thoughts on the "gift" of submission

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to DawnFire)

Post #: 14

RE: "Submission is a Gift" - 8/1/2007 7:16:20 AM

SimplyMichael

Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline

The submission I seek is not a gift, it isn't something consciously given. Either I evoke feelings of submissiveness in a woman or not. I am not interested in "today I will give my gift to Michael but tomorrow I might give it to Fred". If it isn't strong enough to be overwhelming, then it isn't enough to interest me.

Its like saying attraction is a gift and people consciously choose who they are and are not attracted to. You can consciously choose who you want to be involved with but not who you are attracted to. So for that reason, submission is not and cannot be a gift.

(in reply to windchymes)

Post #: 15

RE: "Submission is a Gift" - 8/1/2007 7:19:19 AM

windchymes

Posts: 9410
Joined: 4/18/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

quote:

ORIGINAL: windchymes

But if the recipient chooses to view it as a gift, it's his or her prerogative and they should be entitled to not have the concept constantly ridiculed.

Maybe, maybe not. If there's a public thread then everyone has the right to publicly express their opinion, pro or con. While that may sound like a reasonable and laudable concept, in reality it's used to silence dissenting opinion. Not such a good thing in my view.

Those that desire to express their opinion without inviting public reply need to rent a roadside billboard.

John

But there's a big difference between expressing a dissenting opinion and ridicule. We preach about that constantly on the boards, accepting others rights to their own opinions and points of view. If someone comes in here and declares "eating scat and drinking pee is disgusting!", others will jump to defend the rights of those who enjoy dining on it to continue to enjoy doing so.

But, for some reason, this "submission is a gift" topic seems to really raise hackles in here.

_____________________________

You know it's going to be a GOOD blow job when she puts a Breathe Right strip on first.

Pick-up artists and garbage men should trade names.

(in reply to Rover)

Post #: 16

RE: "Submission is a Gift" - 8/1/2007 7:21:32 AM

BOUNTYHUNTER

Posts: 9259
Joined: 2/5/2004
Status: offline

Submission is NOT a gift,its a need ,a slave to give and a master to accept,I know this sounds strange but some times submission is hard to accept when a slave/sub believes she is bring a wonderful gift smiles...IT takes two to tango....will clarified late but gotta run for now...bounty

_____________________________

US going to hell in a hand basket/

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 17

RE: "Submission is a Gift" - 8/1/2007 7:21:53 AM

DawnFire

Posts: 78
Joined: 3/17/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: windchymes

But if the recipient chooses to view it as a gift, it's his or her prerogative and they should be entitled to not have the concept constantly ridiculed.

Yeah, I think that's what I was going with, but Rover is right too, public thread, public opinion.

And thanks LuckyAlbatross, glad for the knowledge that the volumes of argument on this subject are extensive. I'll have to read over some of the older arguments and see how they went.

(in reply to windchymes)

Post #: 18

RE: "Submission is a Gift" - 8/1/2007 7:22:19 AM

Rover

Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

I am not interested in "today I will give my gift to Michael but tomorrow I might give it to Fred".

Unfortunately, that's the nature of consensual relationships of any kind. I think you're confusing possibility with probability. While it's always possible that your submissive (or mine, or anyone else's) may decide to submit to Fred tomorrow, it's not very probable (Fred being a loser and all). Still, that slim possibility always exists because of that pesky issue of consent.

John

_____________________________

"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 19

RE: "Submission is a Gift" - 8/1/2007 7:26:10 AM

Rover

Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: windchymes

But there's a big difference between expressing a dissenting opinion and ridicule.

Granted, but now you're discussing style rather than substance. Or common courtesy if you will. A considerably different concept.

John

_____________________________

"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to windchymes)

Post #: 20

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