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RE: "Submission is a Gift" - 12/5/2008 11:41:36 PM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline 		Yeah, and you were worried earlier about hijacking this thread.  Cripes, all that's missing now is the ransom.
 
John

_____________________________

"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to NihilusZero)
Profile   Post #: 121
RE: "Submission is a Gift" - 12/5/2008 11:54:45 PM   
understeer


Posts: 35
Joined: 1/2/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CalifChick

Oh, we haven't had a good "submission is a gift" thread in a while... this turkey was over a year old.

Why is it no one ever says, "my love is a gift", "my blowjob skills are a gift", "my ability to double-clutch a stick-shift is a gift" ... you know, those really important things that have nothing to do with an orientation?


Cali



But wait... my ability to heel-toe a stick shift is a gift!
(I never said it was a very good one...)





I happen to agree with a few people who so eloquently put that "submission is a gift" statement evokes a feeling of arrogance and self-importance towards those using the statement.  I think it's quaint when the "gift" is given and graciously accepted.  I prefer my relationships to develop from chemistry, compatibility, and finding the appropriate match rather than some shiny box with a pretty bow that leaves me hoping for a gift receipt.

(in reply to CalifChick)
Profile   Post #: 122
RE: "Submission is a Gift" - 12/6/2008 12:48:28 AM   
Aszhrae


Posts: 1030
Joined: 3/31/2008
Status: offline 		not in my beliefs,
to believe it as a gift, is a hesitation, something to take back when an individual submissive has had enough
if there is a dominant that a submissive finds little hesitation and becomes completely malleable to the will of their dominant,
the only real choice is to allow your self to be collared or not
in such an acceptance, girl believes it is for life
not many dominants will accept that much responsibility for a submissive
being submissive is not a gift, it is what you are or were meant to be

(in reply to DawnFire)
Profile   Post #: 123
RE: "Submission is a Gift" - 12/7/2008 1:29:46 PM   
WoodenPaddle


Posts: 154
Joined: 5/7/2008
Status: offline 		Personally? Not at all. If a sub is serious about her request to be released I let her go.
But not is she is having a bad day and would be asking to come back the day after for instance. Collaring is a serious business, just as releasing a sub is. If one feels it's ok to collar a sub after a single chat, and release her when she's having a bad day, what's the worth in that relationship?
But the point is she has to ASK for it. And has to accept that it may not be granted right that moment. Perhaps she will be released the week after. Or the beginning of the next week or month. Or may have to help find a replacement, or finish her assignment, or whatever other condition may originally have been set. Or perhaps she can pack right that second and leave. But it is the Dom who has to agree with her release.
Personally, I always make sure conditions for release are put down in writing, both the reasons for it (both sides) and the consitions, it makes it clear for both parties.
So in my case, a sub has to ask to be released. And she knows right from the start, before the collar is granted what the conditions for her release will be.
Of course, any Dom worth the name would release her, or better yet, have seen it coming and brought up the subject before she asked for it. Which is not the same as kidnapping, so please do not be ridiculous here.

The whole point is, she cannot threaten to withold her submission when it suits her. That would make her the dominant in the relation, meaning she has no business claiming to be a sub.

(in reply to Rover)
Profile   Post #: 124
RE: "Submission is a Gift" - 12/7/2008 1:42:19 PM   
WoodenPaddle


Posts: 154
Joined: 5/7/2008
Status: offline 		*snorts*
If she is determined to leave right away there is no reason not to release her. In fact, a god Dom would have seen that coming and would have released her before she asked for it.
You're putting things extremely black/white. Reality (almost) never is that way. Shades of grey are much more realistic.
When I am considering a sub/slave for collaring, she will get a testperiod first, and even before that a very thorough description of what the rules will be, what she can expect, and what the conditions are for her release. (most often a simple one, like a week's time to reconsider. If she still want to be released after that week, she will be.) She knows the conditions beforehand, and so I expect her to live up to that.
A very serious reason would be required to negate the conditions.
If one has a job and the contract says 2 weeks notice you can't run off telling them to stuff it either.
You make an agreement, you keep it. It's as simple as that. Whether it's work, hobby, relationship or whatever. You keep your word. Period.

(in reply to Rover)
Profile   Post #: 125
RE: "Submission is a Gift" - 12/7/2008 2:31:39 PM   
moonvine


Posts: 780
Joined: 11/7/2004
Status: offline 		Just about every day....

(in reply to michaelOfGeorgia)
Profile   Post #: 126
RE: "Submission is a Gift" - 12/7/2008 4:57:18 PM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: WoodenPaddle

But the point is she has to ASK for it. And has to accept that it may not be granted right that moment. Perhaps she will be released the week after. Or the beginning of the next week or month. Or may have to help find a replacement, or finish her assignment, or whatever other condition may originally have been set. Or perhaps she can pack right that second and leave. But it is the Dom who has to agree with her release.


And that is all well and good.  We all decide what level of risk we're willing to personally accept.  But this only works if the submissive/slave agrees to it.  If it's not consensual, then someone is going to find themselves doing time.

Considering all the issues, I'd say that this is probably an exaggerated portrayal of what is actually a consensual break up.  The only other alternatives are that it's utter fantasy, a non-consensual procedure that's ill-suited to peaceful coexistence with the law, or an idea hatched by someone who is ill-informed about the law.  Of course, it could be all three.

quote:


Personally, I always make sure conditions for release are put down in writing, both the reasons for it (both sides) and the consitions, it makes it clear for both parties.
So in my case, a sub has to ask to be released. And she knows right from the start, before the collar is granted what the conditions for her release will be.


That's great for communicating expectations beforehand, and I commend you for it.  But submissives/slaves are humans (at least, that's the rumor) and humans have been known to change their minds when confronted with the reality of a situation.  Meaning that while it may have been their intention to wait for you to release her at the outset, that may not be the case at its conclusion.  And once the situation is no longer consensual, you have crossed a line that is not likely to end well.

quote:


Of course, any Dom worth the name would release her, or better yet, have seen it coming and brought up the subject before she asked for it.


In which case the entire procedure is window dressing.

quote:


Which is not the same as kidnapping, so please do not be ridiculous here.


There is nothing ridiculous about keeping anyone against their will.  You suggest being able to do it for weeks or months.  OJ did it for a few minutes (literally) and he got 15 years.  I don't think you understand what it is that you're advocating, from a legal standpoint.

quote:


The whole point is, she cannot threaten to withold her submission when it suits her. That would make her the dominant in the relation, meaning she has no business claiming to be a sub.


That would only be the case if there were no consequences for her actions (such as saying... "sorry, that doesn't work for me.  Here's your bags and parting gifts.  Thanks for playing and good luck in the future."). 
 
John

_____________________________

"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to WoodenPaddle)
Profile   Post #: 127
RE: "Submission is a Gift" - 12/7/2008 5:00:51 PM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: WoodenPaddle

If one has a job and the contract says 2 weeks notice you can't run off telling them to stuff it either.


Actually, you can.  Your employer has no recourse and would end up in prison if they tried to forceably keep you from leaving.  Just as you will if you seek to forceably enforce your contract with your submissive/slave.

Please do let us know where to send the cards.
 
John

_____________________________

"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to WoodenPaddle)
Profile   Post #: 128
RE: "Submission is a Gift" - 12/8/2008 8:50:39 AM   
WoodenPaddle


Posts: 154
Joined: 5/7/2008
Status: offline 		Funny. Over here, one cannot walk away from your boss like that. Or at least not without serious consequenses, like heavy fines. If you have a contract saying you have to give 2 weeks notice and you just walk out, you're the one in trouble, not your boss (who will not try to keep you by force, just will file it and press charges so you'll probably have a very bad record if anyone cares to hire you again)
But then again, our system doesn't work the same way as yours, thank the gods.
And it seems you seem to enjoy taking things into the extreme and/or taking things out of context.
Seems I posted several times now that I think a Dom is not doing his job if he lets it get that far. I don't.
Btw, a "contract" in a bdsm relation is not legally valid, so it wouldn't stand up in court anyway. But there is something like personal trust and honor (yes, I know, I'm oldfashioned) you make an agreement, you keep it.
So a week shouldn't be too much of a problem. Yet is it is, I also stated I'd release her. IF I'd let it get that far, which I can honestly say I never have.

(in reply to Rover)
Profile   Post #: 129
RE: "Submission is a Gift" - 12/8/2008 9:07:16 AM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		Hello WP, I see you are the new "uberdom" of the week/day (depends on the membership increase of the moment). Please feel free to continue spouting your "one true way" rubbish. It is quite entertaining though we've seen it all before, and then some.

We really enjoy hearing how you skilled uberdoms manage your super slaves ever so much better than the rest of us. So, is submission a gift to you, or do you view it as your gods given uberdom right?

OR, perhaps you are of the more philosophical mindset that your uberdomiliness is a gift you bestow on your slave/s and that they should be so overcome with the honour they will not want to leave?

Or, do you advocate chaining them in the basement until they see the light, when you allow them to see it. Please, expound upon your own one true way.

Because personally, it really is quite simply a relationship style that two (or more) people enter into willingly. A relationship based, like most vanilla relationships, upon those involved in it maintaining the rolls they agreed upon. If any party within that relationship decided that the relationship is not filling their specific needs and desires, they really can walk out the door without any asking, begging or other such silliness. Regardless of M/s, D/s or s/s, D/D, or any other spiffy combo you can think up. And I thank the goddesses for that.


_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to WoodenPaddle)
Profile   Post #: 130
RE: "Submission is a Gift" - 12/8/2008 9:10:13 AM   
YourhandMyAss


Posts: 5516
Joined: 6/25/2006
From: Sacramento
Status: offline 		I have a problem wit it becaue I give gifts with no expectations of the  person revieving them. It's free and it's clear and I will not take the gift back once given.

My submission however comes with tons of strings attached, and there ARE expectations attached to it and if you don't fufill those I WILL take my submission back and leave you.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DawnFire

I have just got to know, what is everyone's problem with the phrase, "Submission is a gift".

\-Dawn

(in reply to DawnFire)
Profile   Post #: 131
RE: "Submission is a Gift" - 12/8/2008 9:16:50 AM   
Lynnxz


Posts: 4813
Joined: 10/3/2006
From: Atlanta
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: WoodenPaddle

Funny. Over here, one cannot walk away from your boss like that. Or at least not without serious consequenses, like heavy fines.


Somehow I doubt that. It's considered rude, but not illegal.


_____________________________

HBIC



(in reply to WoodenPaddle)
Profile   Post #: 132
RE: "Submission is a Gift" - 12/8/2008 10:43:15 AM   
Jeptha


Posts: 780
Joined: 9/18/2008
From: Portland, Oregon
Status: offline 		My problem with the phrase is that it doesn't acknowledge the ego involvement and ego gratification of the giver.

Presumably the giving of the gift is exactly what the submissive sought, so ...what the fuck, therefore?

Can you imagine a guy saying, "That sex we had last night? That was my gift to you, baby.
Yeah, did you like your precious gift? Cause it was a real sacrifice for me and I hope you appreciate that."

No, thanks, to such "gifts".

(in reply to DawnFire)
Profile   Post #: 133
RE: "Submission is a Gift" - 12/8/2008 12:43:03 PM   
moonvine


Posts: 780
Joined: 11/7/2004
Status: offline 		It appears whereever he lives they have employment contracts, which could carry the possibility of fines if either party broke the contract.

(in reply to Lynnxz)
Profile   Post #: 134
RE: "Submission is a Gift" - 12/8/2008 12:47:48 PM   
TheVoiceofOne


Posts: 58
Joined: 11/5/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

quote:

ORIGINAL: BoiJen

does anybody actually give their submission without expectation of Dominance in return?



Exactly.  They get the dominant end of the stick....The "gift concept" are for people who enjoy going to movies and watching everyone for the next 90 minutes die from cancer.  "My submission is a gift"...It's like a hand in glove....What in the fuck does a glove get out of this deal?....Maybe the glove would rather be in some field getting fucked by a bull.

It's a trade off...Needs meet needs...wants, desires, aches and on and on and fucking on and on....Someone who does not have the "need" to be dominated rarely says, "Ya know, Domiguy seems a little bummed out today....I think I will make a gift of my submission to him."  This is where the argument begins to loose some steam.

From the number of threads it is clear that subs are gifting there submission pretty much at will....Meaning that their most cherished of treasures are being wrapped up and delivered to some fairly extreme shitheads....Without a whole lot of thought....Some gift.

The reason that most of us are out here is because we have an interest need, desire....Blah blah blah blah.......In some aspect of bdsm.....So we meet...Things are cool...And then one day we exchange gifts....Lil' subsusie's mom and family look on as subsusie unwraps her present ....In the mean time I have closely examined my gift, held it up to the light, shaken it and dejectedly I have determined it is probably not an i-phone....My mother, Dommenique,her boredom clearly showing, rolls her eyes and motions that I should probably unwrap my gift.

Subsusie let's out a high pitched squeal that only a dog could hear....as she holds up her gift....."What is it?" shouts her mother....Subsusie with tears rolling down her face screams, "It's his domination!!!"  Her family immediately encircles her and they hop up in down in unison, laughing and yelling.....My mother asks me, "son, what did you receive?"  Unenthusiastically, I open my hands to show her subsusie's submission all wrinkled and balled up.  My mother grimaces and whispers, "Poor thing.  Well, maybe you'll get what you want next year....You know it's the thought that counts...But that is really a suck ass gift."  She puts her hand on my shoulder as I throw subsusie's submission into the closet...It lands with a soft thud directly between the submission of subsarah, sublaurie and sublateesha.



That was fu*kin' hilarious!!!

(in reply to domiguy)
Profile   Post #: 135
RE: "Submission is a Gift" - 12/8/2008 1:10:37 PM   
agirl


Posts: 4530
Joined: 6/14/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheVoiceofOne


quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

quote:

ORIGINAL: BoiJen

does anybody actually give their submission without expectation of Dominance in return?



Exactly.  They get the dominant end of the stick....The "gift concept" are for people who enjoy going to movies and watching everyone for the next 90 minutes die from cancer.  "My submission is a gift"...It's like a hand in glove....What in the fuck does a glove get out of this deal?....Maybe the glove would rather be in some field getting fucked by a bull.

It's a trade off...Needs meet needs...wants, desires, aches and on and on and fucking on and on....Someone who does not have the "need" to be dominated rarely says, "Ya know, Domiguy seems a little bummed out today....I think I will make a gift of my submission to him."  This is where the argument begins to loose some steam.

From the number of threads it is clear that subs are gifting there submission pretty much at will....Meaning that their most cherished of treasures are being wrapped up and delivered to some fairly extreme shitheads....Without a whole lot of thought....Some gift.

The reason that most of us are out here is because we have an interest need, desire....Blah blah blah blah.......In some aspect of bdsm.....So we meet...Things are cool...And then one day we exchange gifts....Lil' subsusie's mom and family look on as subsusie unwraps her present ....In the mean time I have closely examined my gift, held it up to the light, shaken it and dejectedly I have determined it is probably not an i-phone....My mother, Dommenique,her boredom clearly showing, rolls her eyes and motions that I should probably unwrap my gift.

Subsusie let's out a high pitched squeal that only a dog could hear....as she holds up her gift....."What is it?" shouts her mother....Subsusie with tears rolling down her face screams, "It's his domination!!!"  Her family immediately encircles her and they hop up in down in unison, laughing and yelling.....My mother asks me, "son, what did you receive?"  Unenthusiastically, I open my hands to show her subsusie's submission all wrinkled and balled up.  My mother grimaces and whispers, "Poor thing.  Well, maybe you'll get what you want next year....You know it's the thought that counts...But that is really a suck ass gift."  She puts her hand on my shoulder as I throw subsusie's submission into the closet...It lands with a soft thud directly between the submission of subsarah, sublaurie and sublateesha.



That was fu*kin' hilarious!!!


Yes, it was........and not too far removed from reality...........lol.

If I'd gone to M with any notion of 'gift', I can imagine him saying *SOME gift!'

agirl



(in reply to TheVoiceofOne)
Profile   Post #: 136
RE: "Submission is a Gift" - 12/8/2008 1:31:04 PM   
CallaFirestormBW


Posts: 3651
Joined: 6/29/2008
Status: offline 		~fast reply~

My issues with the phrase "my submission is a gift" come because my experience with the phrase has been with individuals who have used this phrase as a way to manipulate a relationship to get what they want out of being sheltered without having to accept the responsibilities of submission.

To me, relationships, in general, are gifts -- luxuries that are not -required- to have a pleasant, full, life, but which, when incorporated, add something to the existence of everyone involved. A D/s dynamic is a particularly intense kind of relationship, where the scale is inherently unbalanced on the surface, but where hungers and desires are fulfilled that might not be all that visible to outside observers -- making it -very- difficult and dangerous to try to judge... but that doesn't change the nature of relationship... it is still a luxury. It is a -given- that having submissive individual in one's life, willing and able to submit and/or serve is a gift... a blessing... a bonus. It is -also- true that, for a submissive, having a dominant partner is a gift... a blessing... a bonus. It seems to me, however, that this phrase is used by individuals who are most often saying "MY half of this dynamic is more special than -yours-, so you'd better be nice to me, and not really expect -submission-... just this facade of submission that looks really good for show... and you'd better treat me nicely, and not expect too much from me, and not try to make me do anything I don't want to do... or I'll take my half of the dynamic away."

BTW... the same applies across the collar. Being a dominant member of a dynamic is no easier or more difficult than being the submissive member of a dynamic... and it is also a gift, in the sense that any relationship is a gift or a bonus to a life... but no more of a gift than the companion aspect. It doesn't matter whether it is 2 people or 20... the checks and balances either work or they don't, and no side is more important or has more required of it, overall, than the other.



_____________________________

***
Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

"Your mind is more interested in the challenge of becoming than the challenge of doing." Jon Benson, Bodybuilder/Trainer

(in reply to Rover)
Profile   Post #: 137
RE: "Submission is a Gift" - 12/8/2008 7:30:54 PM   
magdelyn


Posts: 17
Joined: 1/8/2008
Status: offline 		The hostility to "the give of my submission" has been going on for ever and ever.  It seems such a waste of energy to argue semantics.

(in reply to Rover)
Profile   Post #: 138
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