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RE: "Submission is a Gift" - 8/1/2007 9:29:43 AM   
SlaveSubtoserve


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quote:

ORIGINAL: daddysprop247

there are many reasons why i dislike the "submission is a gift" idealogy, most of which have already been listed. but one of my main issues with it is that it makes the implication that submission is conscious choice (after all, you "choose" to give someone a gift), and to say that submission is a choice implies that it's not a constant state, and is something that can be switched on and off. i tend to view submissiveness as a personality trait, it's there or it isn't. my other issue with the gift idea is that it always comes across somewhat manipulative...like i'm giving you this gift, and if you don't toe the line, i can take it right back!



......agree with that- nice points.

(in reply to daddysprop247)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: "Submission is a Gift" - 8/1/2007 9:36:41 AM   
BossyShoeBitch


Posts: 3931
Joined: 1/13/2007
From: South Florida
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

I am not interested in "today I will give my gift to Michael but tomorrow I might give it to Fred". 


Unfortunately, that's the nature of consensual relationships of any kind.  I think you're confusing possibility with probability.  While it's always possible that your submissive (or mine, or anyone else's) may decide to submit to Fred tomorrow, it's not very probable (Fred being a loser and all).  Still, that slim possibility always exists because of that pesky issue of consent.
 
John


I can tell you with 100% certainty that there is NO possibilty of me submitting to "Fred" or anyone else besides Michael tomorrow or any other day..
Now tying Fred's knees to his elbows and making him drink his own cum...
THAT is a distinct possibility...


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A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.

(in reply to Rover)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: "Submission is a Gift" - 8/1/2007 9:42:52 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelOfGeorgia
i've often thought of my submission as a curse. if it were a gift, you'd think someone out there would except it.


The same could be said about life itself, especially if you waste it feeling sorry for yourself or sit waiting for price or princess charming to stroll into your life and unwrap your "gift".

Having the perspective that submission or dominance or any trait you identify as yours as a "gift" is about as egocentric as you can get. Of course you have to believe that what you offer has value. Of course you should make sure that whoever you find as a partner should value you. But a gift?

It's been a while since I heard the reference but wasn't this said; "Who does he/she think he/she is, god's gift to woman/man?"; a negative characteristic to take into a relationship?

beth is the most valuable person in my life. she gave me no "gift". she gave me Elizabeth; a person confident in who/what she was seeking only someone to compliment her desires and perhaps fulfill some of her fantasies.

We aren't "gifts". To consider ourselves as such speaks to a need for self importance. To consider yourself a "gift" rationalizes failure and provides an opportunity to feel sorry for yourself when your "gift" wasn't accepted or appreciated. I can see the need for that, but it's counterproductive to achieving a relationship where you compliment your partner and not expecting him/her to always account for your "gift" of submission, or dominance.

Know yourself, value yourself, and find someone who feels the same about you. Once you have that foundation, buy each other a "gift". I'd highly recommend setting up a "registry" for them at 'Mr. S Leather' on 8th Street in SF.  

(in reply to michaelOfGeorgia)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: "Submission is a Gift" - 8/1/2007 9:47:21 AM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline 		I know that when we discuss possibilities and probabilities, people can feel as though it challenges things that are sacred in their lives and in which they are emotionally invested.  And as a result, it's tempting to reply emotionally rather than logically.  It's really kind of a microcosm of this thread, in which submission as a gift tends to be an emotional argument that defies logic.
 
Let me make the example less personal for you.  While I may feel as though there is a 100 % certainty that I would never submit to Fred, I know intellectually and logically that no such certainty exists.  It is exceedingly improbable that I would ever submit to Fred, yet I cannot foresee all potential circumstances that might influence that reality.  Consequently, while the probability of that occuring may approach zero, it can never be zero. 
 
John

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(in reply to BossyShoeBitch)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: "Submission is a Gift" - 8/1/2007 9:52:15 AM   
GhitaAmati


Posts: 3263
Joined: 5/30/2007
Status: offline 		Who is Fred?

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(in reply to Rover)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: "Submission is a Gift" - 8/1/2007 9:56:27 AM   
KatyLied


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From: Pennsylvania
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quote:

Who is Fred?


Rover's secret crush.


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Profile   Post #: 66
RE: "Submission is a Gift" - 8/1/2007 10:17:21 AM   
boytoy4female


Posts: 103
Joined: 8/10/2006
Status: offline 		I see submission as a gift and a curse. I think the question over-simplifies things. As in most bdsm, the lines are blurred (as that is the rush).

Submission is a gift is far to simple. What kind of gift. I see it as an exotic sports car. She wants it and I have to work hard to give it to her. If submission is something you truly desire, then is it really submission to be who you are? In this case, it may not be a gift.

In my case, submission is a gift. Ive had to work long and hard to achieve it. It is the fact that I am not submissive by nature, yet I give it to her, that pleases her and makes her feel like the goddess she is. Of course, her ability to manipulate, coerce and motivate have much to do with my ability to submit.

It is a curse, in that over time, through practice and conditioning, I slip easily into submission. When I do, my ego and my inner submissive fight for control. This makes my head spin and leaves me more vulnerable to her. My desire to please her battles with what is me.

< Message edited by boytoy4female -- 8/1/2007 10:18:14 AM >

(in reply to KatyLied)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: "Submission is a Gift" - 8/1/2007 10:38:57 AM   
slaveish


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Joined: 2/19/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

We aren't "gifts". To consider ourselves as such speaks to a need for self importance. To consider yourself a "gift" rationalizes failure and provides an opportunity to feel sorry for yourself when your "gift" wasn't accepted or appreciated. I can see the need for that, but it's counterproductive to achieving a relationship where you compliment your partner and not expecting him/her to always account for your "gift" of submission, or dominance.

Know yourself, value yourself, and find someone who feels the same about you. Once you have that foundation, buy each other a "gift". I'd highly recommend setting up a "registry" for them at 'Mr. S Leather' on 8th Street in SF.  



~smiling~ As lovely and perfect a reply as we have come to expect from you, Merc.

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(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: "Submission is a Gift" - 8/1/2007 12:57:47 PM   
bliss1


Posts: 497
Joined: 3/14/2007
Status: offline 		Has anyone given a gift from the heart that is not physical? 
I don't see my gift of submission as hallmarky or romantic - it just is for me. 
It comes from my heart - is not for everyone.



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Profile   Post #: 69
RE: "Submission is a Gift" - 8/1/2007 1:05:25 PM   
loverly


Posts: 236
Joined: 1/23/2004
Status: offline 		submission isnt a gift any more than being Dominant is one.. people are born submissive or Dominant.. its a way of life and a personalality trait and a fact.  The GIFT if you will, is in the giving of the opportunity to be free.. by BOTH the Master and slave. Free to be who they are totally and without reservations or being told it is wrong.. to enjoy a total life full of joy and excitement and to provide for one another what is a need within them! period.. in my humble opinion that is..

(in reply to Rover)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: "Submission is a Gift" - 8/1/2007 1:11:07 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


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Joined: 10/25/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: loverly
its a way of life and a personalality trait and a fact.  

Well they might be both an orientation and a personality trait- but that does not mean they necessarily coincide.

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Profile   Post #: 71
RE: "Submission is a Gift" - 8/1/2007 1:14:37 PM   
LATEXBABY64


Posts: 2107
Joined: 4/8/2004
Status: offline 		you know now that i think about this more it is not about submission being a gift it is what we are to someone you have heard the term you are such a gift to me. it is the things we do for each other. why do artsy fartsy people have to smear something beautiful into Grey and black colors. if someone wants to believe they are gift to their Dom or domme and the domme or Dom sees it that way more power to you.. as for the rest of you who like to ruin everyone else vision kiss my little white hiny. try not to be so analytically minded and start living life with a little more color.....

(in reply to loverly)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: "Submission is a Gift" - 8/1/2007 1:51:36 PM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DawnFire

I have just got to know, what is everyone's problem with the phrase, "Submission is a gift".


In a world of words, arguing definitions and semantics is a way of life. AK-47's don't transmit well over cable lines, so often flame throwers are used in their stead. 

While I don't embrace it, I don't personally have any issue with those who view their submission as a gift. Sometimes I view Himself as Blackbeard so who's crazy around here?  I don't know for sure, but I think the idea of 'gift' came off Castlerealm which is a rather flowery, romantic view of BDSM but certainly valid as a way to live life if that's what one chooses. Me, I like blood, sweat and having my inner self ripped from my body in gory, feral chunks to be consumed by the beast within Himself, so hey.. whatever floats yer boat.

Celeste

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Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


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Profile   Post #: 73
RE: "Submission is a Gift" - 8/2/2007 2:31:27 AM   
interestingtimes


Posts: 57
Joined: 5/14/2007
Status: offline
quote:

There's submission as a function of who you are (ie: a natural expression of being yourself). There's submission as something you "do" (ie: something you enjoy for short periods of time, like a scene). There's submission as a relationship dynamic (ie: just to the one(s) of your choosing). There's submission as a personality trait (ie: submissive in all situations to all people).
[/quote


Thanks for explaining this so well, for me it's the relationship dynamic...that makes my mind and body hum..

< Message edited by interestingtimes -- 8/2/2007 2:42:57 AM >

(in reply to Rover)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: "Submission is a Gift" - 8/2/2007 3:48:32 AM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		That's exactly how I feel too.  Well said!

quote:

ORIGINAL: loverly

submission isnt a gift any more than being Dominant is one.. people are born submissive or Dominant.. its a way of life and a personalality trait and a fact.  The GIFT if you will, is in the giving of the opportunity to be free.. by BOTH the Master and slave. Free to be who they are totally and without reservations or being told it is wrong.. to enjoy a total life full of joy and excitement and to provide for one another what is a need within them! period.. in my humble opinion that is..

(in reply to loverly)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: "Submission is a Gift" - 8/2/2007 3:55:11 AM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		I always wonder what people think they're saying when they do the "It's all semantics" line.  Semantics is the study of meaning.  Of course statements are "all semantics."  What else CAN they be?  If there's a semantic problem with a statement, then the statement has no persuasive meaning.  There's no distinction between the semantics of a statement and the meaning behind it.

What I assume people must mean is something like "You know what the statement means and you're just criticizing the (lazy and inaccurate) way it's formulated."  But I've never understood that attitude.  If there's something wrong with a statement, the statement has to be revised.  If we're going to use language to communicate, we may as well make an effort to do it conscientiously.  Otherwise we all may as well just grunt.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DawnFire

I guess my point is - that it's all semantics - if someone has a problem with a phrase, its a matter of semantics.  If they have a problem with the meaning behind the phrase, that's an entirely different matter.

(in reply to DawnFire)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: "Submission is a Gift" - 8/2/2007 4:02:12 AM   
BoiJen


Posts: 2608
Joined: 3/7/2007
Status: offline 		does anybody actually give their submission without expectation of Dominance in return?



(in reply to Lordandmaster)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: "Submission is a Gift" - 8/2/2007 6:33:15 AM   
beargonewild


Posts: 22716
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		I believe it's safe to say that nobody gives their submission without expecting something in return. We give our submission to a Dom and the Dom gives their dominance in return. It's a very symbiotic relationship between a Dom and sub.

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(in reply to BoiJen)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: "Submission is a Gift" - 8/2/2007 6:36:46 AM   
domiguy


Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BoiJen

does anybody actually give their submission without expectation of Dominance in return?



Exactly.  They get the dominant end of the stick....The "gift concept" are for people who enjoy going to movies and watching everyone for the next 90 minutes die from cancer.  "My submission is a gift"...It's like a hand in glove....What in the fuck does a glove get out of this deal?....Maybe the glove would rather be in some field getting fucked by a bull.

It's a trade off...Needs meet needs...wants, desires, aches and on and on and fucking on and on....Someone who does not have the "need" to be dominated rarely says, "Ya know, Domiguy seems a little bummed out today....I think I will make a gift of my submission to him."  This is where the argument begins to loose some steam.

From the number of threads it is clear that subs are gifting there submission pretty much at will....Meaning that their most cherished of treasures are being wrapped up and delivered to some fairly extreme shitheads....Without a whole lot of thought....Some gift.

The reason that most of us are out here is because we have an interest need, desire....Blah blah blah blah.......In some aspect of bdsm.....So we meet...Things are cool...And then one day we exchange gifts....Lil' subsusie's mom and family look on as subsusie unwraps her present ....In the mean time I have closely examined my gift, held it up to the light, shaken it and dejectedly I have determined it is probably not an i-phone....My mother, Dommenique,her boredom clearly showing, rolls her eyes and motions that I should probably unwrap my gift.

Subsusie let's out a high pitched squeal that only a dog could hear....as she holds up her gift....."What is it?" shouts her mother....Subsusie with tears rolling down her face screams, "It's his domination!!!"  Her family immediately encircles her and they hop up in down in unison, laughing and yelling.....My mother asks me, "son, what did you receive?"  Unenthusiastically, I open my hands to show her subsusie's submission all wrinkled and balled up.  My mother grimaces and whispers, "Poor thing.  Well, maybe you'll get what you want next year....You know it's the thought that counts...But that is really a suck ass gift."  She puts her hand on my shoulder as I throw subsusie's submission into the closet...It lands with a soft thud directly between the submission of subsarah, sublaurie and sublateesha.

< Message edited by domiguy -- 8/2/2007 6:57:25 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 79
RE: "Submission is a Gift" - 8/2/2007 8:00:29 AM   
jellopet


Posts: 7
Joined: 1/3/2007
Status: offline 		i'm willing to accept that submission is a *gift* when the whole is willing to accept that domination is also. 


(in reply to domiguy)
Profile   Post #: 80
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