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RE: "Submission is a Gift" - 8/1/2007 7:27:02 AM   
DawnFire


Posts: 78
Joined: 3/17/2007
Status: offline 		Although I have seen a few women that feel submission is not a gift, I've seen far more men (evidenced by this post) that dislike the term.

Anyone got a clue on that one?

(in reply to Rover)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: "Submission is a Gift" - 8/1/2007 7:27:02 AM   
DiurnalVampire


Posts: 8125
Joined: 1/19/2006
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline 		The only time I ever have a problem with the phrase is when the person using it makes it soundas if they are honoring me with the great gift of their submission.  I am such a lucky Domme that they are willing to offer me this wonderful gift, and it comes off sounding as if they are they are doing me a favor by submitting to me rather than properly gving themselves to me becasue they want to be owned.

For someone who sees their submission as a gift that someone gets, and a gift that through trust and love can be happily given, I have no problem with it.

My 2 cents
DV


_____________________________

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VampiresLair

(in reply to windchymes)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: "Submission is a Gift" - 8/1/2007 7:28:11 AM   
camille65


Posts: 5746
Joined: 7/11/2007
From: Austin Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: windchymes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

quote:

ORIGINAL: windchymes

But if the recipient chooses to view it as a gift, it's his or her prerogative and they should be entitled to not have the concept constantly ridiculed.


Maybe, maybe not.  If there's a public thread then everyone has the right to publicly express their opinion, pro or con.  While that may sound like a reasonable and laudable concept, in reality it's used to silence dissenting opinion.  Not such a good thing in my view.
 
Those that desire to express their opinion without inviting public reply need to rent a roadside billboard.
 
John


But there's a big difference between expressing a dissenting opinion and ridicule.  We preach about that constantly on the boards, accepting others rights to their own opinions and points of view.  If someone comes in here and declares "eating scat and drinking pee is disgusting!", others will jump to defend the rights of those who enjoy dining on it to continue to enjoy doing so. 

But, for some reason, this "submission is a gift" topic seems to really raise hackles in here. 


It does seem to be one of those things that sparks instant ridicule  .
All I know is that he insists that 'I' am the gift to him. Not my submission but the whole package of me. Thank all the little green gods there is a No Return Policy!

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(in reply to windchymes)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: "Submission is a Gift" - 8/1/2007 7:29:07 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline
quote:

But, for some reason, this "submission is a gift" topic seems to really raise hackles in here. 

 
Its because people say - ''submission is a gift' that people get narky about it.  People who make that statement do not (in general) say  - 'I view my submission as a gift'  .Or. ' I see my dominance as a gift.'  They are making a blanket statement, like 'all dominants are suppose to be teachers'.  It isn't the reason - it is the slapping it on everyones back.
 
If submission is a gift for someone - fine.  But I still say it isn't like that for me.  And if someone is going to try and slap it on me then yes, I am not beyond a little ridicule - but then that isn't for the statement, it's for the assumption they even have that power or ability.
 
Peace
the.dark.

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love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to windchymes)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: "Submission is a Gift" - 8/1/2007 7:30:16 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		Let's just say that there is an extremely high correllation between those who seriously view their submission as a gift, and those who end up in short term (less than a year) relationships which end in bad heartbreak.

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(in reply to camille65)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: "Submission is a Gift" - 8/1/2007 7:32:24 AM   
sambamanslilgirl


Posts: 10926
Joined: 2/5/2007
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline 		in Daddy's eyes, my submission was a gift since i gave and submitted everything and all of me completely to Him and His control when He placed His collar around my neck in January ...on the 13th, we'll be celebrating our 1st anniversary


< Message edited by sambamanslilgirl -- 8/1/2007 7:33:54 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 26
RE: "Submission is a Gift" - 8/1/2007 7:32:55 AM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DawnFire

Although I have seen a few women that feel submission is not a gift, I've seen far more men (evidenced by this post) that dislike the term.

Anyone got a clue on that one?


Because it directly impacts the "romantic" idealism of those submissive women, whereas the Dominant men are more likely to consider it a control issue (ie: the submissive is making a decision of her own) which is not so appealing to their version of a "romantic" idealism? 
 
Just a thought.
 
John

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(in reply to DawnFire)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: "Submission is a Gift" - 8/1/2007 7:34:46 AM   
slaveish


Posts: 1086
Joined: 2/19/2007
Status: offline 		"Submission is a gift" is the Hallmark equivalent of the community - sweet, sappy, maybe even inspiring of great emotion - but ultimately just a catchy phrase with no basis in the reality of relationships.

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If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other. ~~Mother Teresa

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: "Submission is a Gift" - 8/1/2007 7:35:38 AM   
DawnFire


Posts: 78
Joined: 3/17/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

Let's just say that there is an extremely high correllation between those who seriously view their submission as a gift, and those who end up in short term (less than a year) relationships which end in bad heartbreak.



So you see veiwing submission as a gift as a form of naivety?

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: "Submission is a Gift" - 8/1/2007 7:37:13 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DawnFire
So you see veiwing submission as a gift as a form of naivety?

Most of the time, and forms of other things (like unrealistic expectations)

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Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to DawnFire)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: "Submission is a Gift" - 8/1/2007 7:38:12 AM   
DawnFire


Posts: 78
Joined: 3/17/2007
Status: offline 		Aha, we're getting down to it.  It's too nice?  Hallmark naivety?  Immature and a blanket statement.

(in reply to DawnFire)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: "Submission is a Gift" - 8/1/2007 7:40:47 AM   
windchymes


Posts: 9410
Joined: 4/18/2005
Status: offline 		This is just a pre-coffee musing.....

Every time that "gift" topic comes up, the strength of the reactions to it always surprises me.  I've heard that "it's a gift" phrase many many times, for years, and I never really thought much of it, rather than, "oh, that's nice" and I moved on, didn't give it any more thought.

But some seem to have almost violent and bitter reactions to the concept.  Why?  "Gift" is just a word.  Maybe because I came from a rather financially-challenged family and gifts were small and inexpensive, and usually something exchanged on birthdays and Christmas.  We appreciated them for the thought behind them, but I guess, in general, not something we took real seriously. So, to me, the word "gift" doesn't seem to carry the weight that others seem to give it.

Maybe others came from families where gifts were large and expensive and it was the gift itself that had the meaning, not the thought?  So, when someone says something along the lines of "I give you this gift", their reaction is to be more concerned with what it is, and there is a larger fear of what could happen to it?  That losing it would be a greater loss?   Therefore, that g-word is something Big And Powerful to them, and therefore, should not be used in reference to something as meaningful as another's "submission"?  

I dunno, I'm probably totally off my rocker, and the coffee's ready.  Have a great day, everyone!

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(in reply to Rover)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: "Submission is a Gift" - 8/1/2007 7:46:34 AM   
DawnFire


Posts: 78
Joined: 3/17/2007
Status: offline 		I think everyone has tacked on extra meaning behind the phrase.  It's the meaning that everyone is attributing to it, IE- a cutesy, perfect, naive fantasy D/s relationship, not the words themselves that are the problem.

So the phrase has picked up some meaning along the way, the negative attributes that are now attached to the phrase aren't ones I'd like to have attached to my profile.  I suppose it's time to revamp it again.

(in reply to windchymes)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: "Submission is a Gift" - 8/1/2007 7:46:52 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DawnFire
Aha, we're getting down to it.  It's too nice?  Hallmark naivety?  Immature and a blanket statement.

I'm afraid I don't know what this means?  Are you responding to yourself?

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to DawnFire)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: "Submission is a Gift" - 8/1/2007 7:47:43 AM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline 		Actually, I don't think the issue is so much regarding the concepts of "gifts" as it is the concept of "ownership".  Lots of folks end up with a bit of a conundrum... a gift is given permanently, but a consensual relationship may not be permanent, but ownership is permanent.
 
In my opinion, as is often the case with BDSM terms, both "gift" and "ownership" are out of step with the reality of consensual relationships.  And that the concept of "ownership" and the permanence associated with it, trumps all.  Blowing holes in that wet paper bag seems to be a slap in the face with reality, and many folks don't like it.
 
John

_____________________________

"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to windchymes)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: "Submission is a Gift" - 8/1/2007 7:48:16 AM   
jezChelle


Posts: 5
Joined: 1/8/2006
Status: offline 		For me i see my submission as a choice rather than some gift. i was gifted with the heart to want to submit to Those i serve. It is a chore sometimes to do so on a daily basis. i am human and fallable. As are W/we all. It is my thought that a blanket statement of submission is a gift...doesn't encompass that it can also be work, as well as reward to submit to another being.....

(in reply to windchymes)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: "Submission is a Gift" - 8/1/2007 7:48:18 AM   
DawnFire


Posts: 78
Joined: 3/17/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

ORIGINAL: DawnFire
Aha, we're getting down to it.  It's too nice?  Hallmark naivety?  Immature and a blanket statement.

I'm afraid I don't know what this means?  Are you responding to yourself?


Not exactly, but reading it again it didn't make much sense, sorry about that.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: "Submission is a Gift" - 8/1/2007 7:49:16 AM   
octavia


Posts: 377
Joined: 5/20/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DawnFire

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

As is the case with most BDSM terms, there's nothing even approaching consensus on the definitiion of "submission".  And frankly, it depends upon what form you're even asking about.
 
There's submission as a function of who you are (ie: a natural expression of being yourself).  There's submission as something you "do" (ie: something you enjoy for short periods of time, like a scene).  There's submission as a relationship dynamic (ie: just to the one(s) of your choosing).  There's submission as a personality trait (ie: submissive in all situations to all people). 
 
Getting beyond the indefinite nature of the term itself, I'd note the following about its portrayal as a "gift":
 
1.  I like the fact that viewed as a "gift", neophytes have a readily identifiable analogy that teaches them that it can be given solely to those of their choosing, and that they are not obligated to all Dominants.
 
2.  I despise the analogy since "gifts" cannot be taken back once given, while submission surely can (and often is).  Viewing submission as a "gift" is simply not representative of reality.
 
Consequently, I have a foot in both camps as it relates to the "submission as a gift" controversy. 
 
John




I love it.  Thank you for a truly intellectually stimulating reply to my post.


His brain makes me hot too.

quote:

ORIGINAL: simplymichael
Its like saying attraction is a gift and people consciously choose who they are and are not attracted to.  You can consciously choose who you want to be involved with but not who you are attracted to.  So for that reason, submission is not and cannot be a gift.

I like this point as well.  Either I am attracted to someone or I'm not, either I desire to submit to them or I don't.  I really can't "make" myself have those feelings although I could force the actions, it would not be the same.  The question that comes to my mind  is can a person learn to evoke those yummy feelings in others?  
I learned that a gift is something I give you that i want you to have, and a present is something i give you that you want to have.  Therefor....
my submission is a present!   
Personally, I think that "submission is a gift" language is just a term that people use to romanticise the whole concept.  I originally used it in my profile, until I bothered to ask more experienced people their opinions and it was gently() suggested that I remove it.  Often, people who are interested in something, without much life experience, will romanticize it, while those who have more life experience tend to be a bit more... pragmatic.  I might have to admit this is true, as each of these threads has come and gone, I find myself more and more willing to agree with the old fogies around here and less and less motivated to defend the phrase. 
jmhoaa,
oct


(in reply to DawnFire)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: "Submission is a Gift" - 8/1/2007 7:53:05 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline
quote:

So the phrase has picked up some meaning along the way, the negative attributes that are now attached to the phrase aren't ones I'd like to have attached to my profile.  I suppose it's time to revamp it again.

 
Ok -
I haven't read your profile, but now I am assuming that you have that submission is a gift within it?
Why are you changing your view, just because some people feel that submission isn;t a gift, in case it is viewed as wrong?  In my mind, you are then isolating yourself from those who do believe that submission is a gift - which seems to be something you adhere to - so you are basically not trusting yourself or your own thoughts, but going with the whole negativity thought?
 
If you have it in your profile, you have it there for a reason that you believe it is a gift?  If you now deny that just because you are afraid it will place negative overtones in your profile, you are not only denying yourself, but in effect, making a false statement to those who may now be attracted to your profile because you do not have it there.
 
Just a thought,
Peace
the.dark.

_____________________________
RC&dc


love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to DawnFire)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: "Submission is a Gift" - 8/1/2007 7:55:22 AM   
Alhazred


Posts: 134
Joined: 7/31/2007
Status: offline 		 
quote:

ORIGINAL: DawnFire

I have just got to know, what is everyone's problem with the phrase, "Submission is a gift".

Really I'm just grasping at straws here... I'd really like to know.

-Dawn


Is there really a 'problem' with "Submission is a gift," (i.e. "I ain't no hollaback gir!")

Submission: 1. SURRENDER capitulation
-VS-
Submissive: yielding, docile, meek, tame, *broken, *bootlicking, *brown-nosing.




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(in reply to DawnFire)
Profile   Post #: 40
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