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Bad News From Iraq: We Might Be Winning - 8/2/2007 7:48:17 PM   
TheHeretic


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       At least one Democrat certainly seems to have taken it that way.

      It's too early to say for sure, but for those of who believe the Democrats have chosen to invest themselves and their political futures in a defeat for the USA in Iraq, the link just might bring a smile to your face.

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RE: Bad News From Iraq: We Might Be Winning - 8/2/2007 8:57:14 PM   
popeye1250


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Winning what?

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RE: Bad News From Iraq: We Might Be Winning - 8/2/2007 9:09:38 PM   
TheHeretic


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       It's one of those sneaky links, Popeye.  Click on the words "one Democrat" in the original post.  Here's a little snip of what's causing heartburn for those who think losing a war is the way to win an election.

But Rep. Keith Ellison of Minnesota, the only Muslim in Congress, is a very liberal Democrat who thinks going to war in Iraq was a mistake. He spent last weekend in Iraq as part of a delegation organized by another liberal Democrat, Rep. Jerry McNerny of California.
"The success in Ramadi is not just because of bombs and bullets, but because the U.S. and Iraqi military and the Iraqi police are partnering with the tribal leadership and the religious leadership," Rep. Ellison told the AP.

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RE: Bad News From Iraq: We Might Be Winning - 8/2/2007 10:35:14 PM   
cyberdude611


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The Democrats have gone so far out on a limb with the anti-war activists that they need to hope for defeat in order to stay in power.

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RE: Bad News From Iraq: We Might Be Winning - 8/2/2007 11:05:02 PM   
caitlyn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611
The Democrats have gone so far out on a limb with the anti-war activists that they need to hope for defeat in order to stay in power.


I would tend to completely agree with you ... and would add that the NeoCon right has gone so far out on the limb of corporate oil and military industrial interests, that they are willing to sacrifice the lives of our soldiers, just to line their pockets.
 
As an aside, the person I know over there has been saying for quite some time, that things are not even close to as bad as our media is reporting, and that significant progress has been made. Since we are both generally social progressive, moderate independents ... and he is in Iraq and I'm in Texas, I'm inclined to take his word for it.

< Message edited by caitlyn -- 8/2/2007 11:06:24 PM >


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RE: Bad News From Iraq: We Might Be Winning - 8/2/2007 11:11:34 PM   
popeye1250


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We already won.
Saddam's dead, "mission accomplished."
Bring our Troops home.
We (Taxpayers) don't need to be paying 150,000 "contractors" to build bridges and roads in Iraq when ours are falling down.
Besides, that wasn't the deal anyway.
"Iraqi Oil will pay for US Taxpayer costs and rebuilding"  -George Bush-

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RE: Bad News From Iraq: We Might Be Winning - 8/2/2007 11:16:21 PM   
cyberdude611


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To a certain extent, we need to make sure the government in place is strong enough to not collapse as soon as we leave. If it does, then we will be right back in there and have to do it all over again.

Think of it like a war between bacteria and anti-biotics. We kill the infection with anti-biotics. But if end the therapy too soon, the bacteria that is left can grow back and become stronger than before. Our goal is to strengthen the immune system so that the anti-biotics can leave.

< Message edited by cyberdude611 -- 8/2/2007 11:18:02 PM >

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RE: Bad News From Iraq: We Might Be Winning - 8/3/2007 5:16:50 AM   
caitlyn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611
Our goal is to strengthen the immune system so that the anti-biotics can leave.


Our goal, was the make a ton of money for certain politically powerful supporters of the far right. I was like you for a very long time (which some might remember on this board), in that I wanted very much to believe in the "rightness" of our mission in Iraq. At this point though, it does seem pretty obvious, to anyone that wants to see it. There were very few terrorist in pre-war Iraq, and as such, no "infection." In removing Saddam, we removed someone terror groups hated just as much as they hate the United States. 
 
Not that I'm giving the far left a pass. Most of them also voted for the war. Even today, we get people that are running for President that don't seem to be able to divide Battalions, by the ability to transport Battalions, and are making wild claims about how quickly we can get out. The front-runner on the left, has no intentions of getting us out of Iraq, being in bed with many of the same business interests that pushed us there in the first place.

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RE: Bad News From Iraq: We Might Be Winning - 8/3/2007 5:26:05 AM   
mnottertail


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

To a certain extent, we need to make sure the government in place is strong enough to not collapse as soon as we leave. If it does, then we will be right back in there and have to do it all over again.

Think of it like a war between bacteria and anti-biotics. We kill the infection with anti-biotics. But if end the therapy too soon, the bacteria that is left can grow back and become stronger than before. Our goal is to strengthen the immune system so that the anti-biotics can leave.


What exactly was wrong with the Iraqi immune system in times prior to our doctoring?

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RE: Bad News From Iraq: We Might Be Winning - 8/3/2007 6:30:01 AM   
farglebargle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

To a certain extent, we need to make sure the government in place is strong enough to not collapse as soon as we leave.


Why?

quote:


If it does, then we will be right back in there and have to do it all over again.


Isn't that WHY we have a Navy, and the Marines in the first place. Hmm. By pulling out, and waiting to see *IF* we get a successor government which is any sort of danger to the US, then we can just send the Navy & Marines back...

ALL THE RESERVISTS GET TO COME HOME TOMORROW.

I don't see a downside. There's no Constitutional reason NOT to withdraw, and wait and see. There's no Amendment making the security of any other Sovereign nation *any* of our concern, nor a legitimate expense from our Treasury.

quote:


Think of it like a war between bacteria and anti-biotics. We kill the infection with anti-biotics. But if end the therapy too soon, the bacteria that is left can grow back and become stronger than before. Our goal is to strengthen the immune system so that the anti-biotics can leave.


Well.... Malaki's government is dissolving, so the Surge FAILED and DID NOT give the Parliament the time to smoke that Afghani Black and sing Kunbaya ( and more importantly securing and divviying up the loot... )

It costs, on average 2.25 Dead American Kids each and every day, the Baghdad Surge already costing 400 Dead American Kids.

How many more Dead American Kids are YOU willing to kill in your intransigence to accept that Bush fooled you INTO Iraq, and you ain't got the balls to get him to accept responsibility and clean up his own damn mess?



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It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

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RE: Bad News From Iraq: We Might Be Winning - 8/3/2007 6:30:44 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

To a certain extent, we need to make sure the government in place is strong enough to not collapse as soon as we leave. If it does, then we will be right back in there and have to do it all over again.

Think of it like a war between bacteria and anti-biotics. We kill the infection with anti-biotics. But if end the therapy too soon, the bacteria that is left can grow back and become stronger than before. Our goal is to strengthen the immune system so that the anti-biotics can leave.


What exactly was wrong with the Iraqi immune system in times prior to our doctoring?


Sssh. You shouldn't ask warmongers pertinent questions like that!

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RE: Bad News From Iraq: We Might Be Winning - 8/3/2007 6:53:54 AM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

What exactly was wrong with the Iraqi immune system in times prior to our doctoring?



            Not a damn thing, Ron, it was supposed to be a simple nose-job, but then came the staph infection...

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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RE: Bad News From Iraq: We Might Be Winning - 8/3/2007 6:55:04 AM   
farglebargle


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Is that what Criminal Fraud is called these days by the Bush Apologists?



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ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: Bad News From Iraq: We Might Be Winning - 8/3/2007 12:34:45 PM   
OrionTheWolf


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I found this interesting:

<snip>

Nancy Pelosi declared “make no mistake: Democrats are committed to ending this war.”

But within days, Pelosi and the Democratic leadership dropped their demand for a timetable. In the end, the Democrats are likely to back down and hand over to Bush the extra funds he wants without conditions. And below the corporate media’s radar, the Democrats have also already signed off on legislation for the fiscal year 2008 that would provide $145 billion for the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan without any conditions for a withdrawal.

Full article here: http://www.socialistalternative.org/news/article13.php?id=537

Orion

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RE: Bad News From Iraq: We Might Be Winning - 8/3/2007 12:46:26 PM   
Stephann


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I think a snapshot of events in Iraq today are exactly as they were a year ago.  I think that the impending elections, depend on that snapshot changing.

The democrats have no vested interest in ending anything, until after November.  They only have a vested interest in appearing to end the war.

Stephan


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RE: Bad News From Iraq: We Might Be Winning - 8/3/2007 2:59:21 PM   
SugarMyChurro


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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn
Not that I'm giving the far left a pass. Most of them also voted for the war.


That's not the left, that's the vote at the center.

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RE: Bad News From Iraq: We Might Be Winning - 8/3/2007 3:18:56 PM   
farglebargle


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Actually, since BushCo committed fraud to specifically obscure Congress' oversidht, get Congress to sign the Iraqi AUMF, they can't be held responsible for their inability to properly provide oversight, due to BushCo's conspiracy.



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It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: Bad News From Iraq: We Might Be Winning - 8/3/2007 9:45:16 PM   
ameenah


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Senate Foreign Relations Committee Chairman Joseph Biden, a Delaware Democrat who initially criticized the war powers resolution as too broad, said he decided to back it "because we should support compelling Iraq to make good on its obligations to the United Nations." 2002

Reasons Hillary Clinton used in her floor speech:

"
Now, I believe the facts that have brought us to this fateful vote are not in doubt. Saddam Hussein is a tyrant who has tortured and killed his own people, even his own family members, to maintain his iron grip on power. He used chemical weapons on Iraqi Kurds and on Iranians, killing over 20 thousand people. Unfortunately, during the 1980's, while he engaged in such horrific activity, he enjoyed the support of the American government, because he had oil and was seen as a counterweight to the Ayatollah Khomeini in Iran.
In 1991, Saddam Hussein invaded and occupied Kuwait, losing the support of the United States. The first President Bush assembled a global coalition, including many Arab states, and threw Saddam out after forty-three days of bombing and a hundred hours of ground operations. The U.S.-led coalition then withdrew, leaving the Kurds and the Shiites, who had risen against Saddam Hussein at our urging, to Saddam's revenge. "

She further said:
"
As a condition for ending the conflict, the United Nations imposed a number of requirements on Iraq, among them disarmament of all weapons of mass destruction, stocks used to make such weapons, and laboratories necessary to do the work. Saddam Hussein agreed, and an inspection system was set up to ensure compliance. And though he repeatedly lied, delayed, and obstructed the inspections work, the inspectors found and destroyed far more weapons of mass destruction capability than were destroyed in the Gulf War, including thousands of chemical weapons, large volumes of chemical and biological stocks, a number of missiles and warheads, a major lab equipped to produce anthrax and other bio-weapons, as well as substantial nuclear facilities. "

She also said:

"
It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons. Should he succeed in that endeavor, he could alter the political and security landscape of the Middle East, which as we know all too well affects American security.
Now this much is undisputed. The open questions are: what should we do about it? How, when, and with whom? "

Some foreign comments were:

"
In late January 2003, a statement released to various newspapers and signed by the leaders of Britain, Spain, Italy, Portugal, Hungary, Poland, Denmark and the Czech Republic showed support for the US, saying that Saddam should not be allowed to violate U.N. resolutions. The statement went on to say that Saddam was a "clear threat to world security", and urged Europe to unite with the United States to ensure that the Iraqi regime is disarmed. "

The UN resolution 1441 stated :
Resolution 1441 specifically stated:
  • That Iraq was in material breach of the ceasefire terms presented under the terms of Resolution 687. Iraq's breaches related not only to Weapons of Mass Destruction (WMDs), but also the known construction of prohibited types of missiles, the purchase and import of prohibited armaments, and the continuing refusal of Iraq to compensate Kuwait for the widespread looting conducted by its troops in 1991.
  • That this represented Iraq's final opportunity to comply with disarmament requirements. In accordance with the previous Resolutions, this meant Iraq not only had to verify the existence or destruction of its remaining unaccounted-for WMD stockpiles, but also had to ensure that all equipment, plans, and materials useful for the resumption of WMD programs was likewise turned over or verified as destroyed.
  • That "...false statements or omissions in the declarations submitted by Iraq pursuant to this resolution and failure by Iraq at any time to comply with, and cooperate fully in the implementation of, this resolution shall constitute a further material breach of Iraq’s obligations".

Hans Blix said:

" "During the period 1991-1998, Iraq submitted many declarations called full, final and complete. Regrettably, much in these declarations proved inaccurate or incomplete or was unsupported or contradicted by evidence. In such cases, no confidence can arise that proscribed programmes or items have been eliminated." By March, Blix declared that the December 7 report had not brought any new documentary evidence to light."

Further:
"
Hans Blix and Mohamed ElBaradei presented several reports to the UN detailing Iraq's level of compliance with Resolution 1441.[1] [2]. On January 30, 2003 Blix said that Iraq had not fully accepted its obligation to disarm, and by mid-February the issues of anthrax, the nerve agent VX and long-range missiles remained unresolved. Blix's March 7 report stated "Iraq, with a highly developed administrative system, should be able to provide more documentary evidence about its proscribed weapons programmes. Only a few new such documents have come to light so far and been handed over since we began inspections."


There is alot more out there that many people need to be held accountabe for. Yes Bush and his admin need to be accountable, but the faulty or fraudulent intelligence is not the only basis that many used to justify going to war. Hold them all accountable, because it was not just the intelligence that they used as the justification of their vote, as can be seen in Hillary Clinton's speech.

Orion

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RE: Bad News From Iraq: We Might Be Winning - 8/3/2007 10:43:42 PM   
Level


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Yes, but she isn't a "fucking Republican", so that all falls on some deaf ears.

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RE: Bad News From Iraq: We Might Be Winning - 8/4/2007 3:34:42 AM   
farglebargle


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She was fed false information from Bushco, as were we all...

When there is an INTENTIONAL CONSPIRACY TO DEFRAUD The People and Congress from their legitimate role in oversight, why would you hold ANYONE BUT THE ALLEGED CRIMINALS responsible for anything resulting from the alleged fraud?

What is the significance of the movie "A Few Good Men" to all this? Yup.

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It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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