quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

just call use progressives and we will take care of the mess.

       Do tell. 

   edit: Perhaps you should give such a plan a thread of it's own?  I'd love to hear some constructive thoughts from you on the subject.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
  edit: Perhaps you should give such a plan a thread of it's own?  I'd love to hear some constructive thoughts from you on the subject.

Doubt it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Doubt it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy


1)  Get our troops out of Iraq.  We have no business being there, we cannot fix the problem, as Tyler Durden pointed out in Fight Club: "Let's evolve, let the chips fall where they may."  We will go bankrupt trying to fix the problem.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy


1) Get our troops out of Iraq. We have no business being there, we cannot fix the problem, as Tyler Durden pointed out in Fight Club: "Let's evolve, let the chips fall where they may." We will go bankrupt trying to fix the problem.

Let's do this one point (or hole) at a time, shall we?

What consequences can we expect in the broader war with the Islamic Crazy People from a another retreat in the region? Wouldn't such a victory for said crazy people be a horrific blow to the hopes of a liberal reformation within Islam that is our best hope of not growing this mess into WWIII and IV?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy


The problem, TheHeretic, is that what you are proposing is

Gee, we fucked it up and cannot fix it, so we should stay there in the hopes that it will magically fix itself with our presence.  Psychotic behavior is doing the same thing repeatedly and hoping for a different outcome.  If that works for you, enjoy, but dont expect me to follow you to our demise.

I am taking the cost/benefit analysis.  We will become a third world country trying to fund the idiocy the Republicans got us in to, at which point the middle east will rise up and do the things to us that you fear.

If we leave now, they can have their place in the world.  We use our money and know-how and research to wean to the point we dont need their product, they will rot and wither away since their culture does not promote social improvement and the welfare of the people.

Your approach simply guarantees that we all get flushed together, and I am not going to support such a millenialistic race to defeat.

As I said, enjoy your war.

Sinergy

quote:


Since I doubt you are going to do any better than you have on matters of national security, perhaps you would care to explain how "muzzling corporate greed" will drive the necessary boom in technological innovation to achieve energy independence?

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle


There is no Islamic Liberal Reformation.

quote:


Ayaan Hirsi Ali (pronunciation (help·info); Somali: Ayaan Xirsi Cali; born Ayaan Hirsi Magan 13 November 1969[2] in Mogadishu, Somalia) is a feminist and political writer, daughter of the Somali scholar, politician, and revolutionary opposition leader Hirsi Magan Isse. When she was six, her family left Somalia for Saudi Arabia, then Ethiopia, and eventually settled in Kenya. She sought and obtained political asylum in the Netherlands in 1992, under circumstances that later became the centre of a political controversy. She is a prominent and controversial author, film maker, and critic of Islam. She was a member of the Tweede Kamer (the Lower House of the States-General of the Netherlands) for the People's Party for Freedom and Democracy (VVD) from January 30, 2003 until May 16, 2006. A political crisis surrounding the potential stripping of her Dutch citizenship led to her resignation from the parliament, and indirectly to the fall of the Second Balkenende cabinet. She has received numerous awards for her human rights work, and in 2005, was named by Time magazine as one of the 100 most influential people in the world. She is currently a fellow at the American Enterprise Institute, a conservative think tank.

quote:

Qatari Religious Scholar Calls for A Moderate and Modern Islam

In a two-part interview with the Qatari daily Al-Raya, Dr. Abd Al-Hamid Al-Ansari [1], former dean of the Faculty of Shari'a and Law at the University of Qatar, expressed his unconventional views on a variety of religious topics. The interview is unique since Dr. Al-Ansari's point of departure in his call for change in Islam isreligious and not secularist.

Dr. Al-Ansari attempts to "remove the concept of sanctity" from Islamic history and from the Companions of the Prophet Muhammad so that Islamic history can be open to criticism and the Companions can be seen as fallible human beings. He attempts to find the golden means between Islam and modernity.

In the interview, Dr. Al-Ansari denounces sectarian Islamic fanaticism, states that the law regarding apostates is not binding upon Muslims in the modern age, and says that the poll tax ( Jizya ) levied on non-Muslims under Islamic rule was never meant to apply to citizens who fulfill their obligations to the state.

He also explains how polygamy was intended as a solution to a social or individual problem, but was never a natural male right. On the other hand, he does not support change to Islam's inheritance laws that give different portions to men and women, and while he supports women's right to extensive religious activity, he does not think they should be allowed to deliver Friday sermons in mosques. The following are excerpts from the interview:

quote:

For more on Dr. Abd Al-Hamid Al-Ansari, see

Special Dispatch No. 792, "Qatari Intellectual on the Islamic Roots of Antisemitism and 9/11 Conspiracy Theories," October 24, 2004, http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area=sd&ID=SP79204;


Special Dispatch No. 660, " Former Dean of Islamic Law at University of Qatar: 'America Has Changed the World for the Better,'" February 10, 2004, http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area=sd&ID=SP66004;


Special Dispatch No. 757, " Liberal Columnist in Al-Hayat: Do Arabs have the Courage to Reconsider Their Positions Following the 9/11 Commission Report?," August 3, 2004 http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area=sd&ID=SP75704;


Special Dispatch No. 699, " Liberal Muslim Scholar: The Term 'Jihad' is Misunderstood by Islamist Clerics, " April 23, 2004, http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area=sd&ID=SP699024;


Special Dispatch No. 503, " An Arab Intellectual in Qatar: 'Arab Media's Conduct During the War is Indicative of a Deeper Malaise,'" May 9, 2003, http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area=sd&ID=SP50303;


Special Dispatch No. 386, " Leading Islamic Clerics Come Out For Reform in Arab-Islamic Society" June 5, 2002, http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area=sd&ID=SP38602;


Special Dispatch No. 337, " Dean of Shari'a and Law at Qatar University in Support of the U.S., the War on Terror, and Curricular Reform Part I," January 29, 2002, http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area=sd&ID=SP33702;


Special Dispatch No. 338, " Dean of Shari'a and Law at Qatar University in Support of the U.S., the War on Terror, and Curricular Reform Part II," January 30, 2002, http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area=sd&ID=SP33802;


Special Dispatch No. 307, "Dean of Islamic Law, Qatar University: The fight against terrorism must begin with curricular, educational, and media reform in the Arab world," December 4, 2001, http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area=sd&ID=SP30701.

Edit: sorry for the format craziness...  Looks like copy/paste in Firefox brings over hyperlinks intact.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Doubt it.

    ???
    I'm not sure how you mean this, Owner59.  Please choose the response which best fits your intent.

A:  Me too.

B:  Are you kidding?  I have a whole list of questions I would want to ask.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy


1)  Get our troops out of Iraq.  We have no business being there, we cannot fix the problem, as Tyler Durden pointed out in Fight Club: "Let's evolve, let the chips fall where they may."  We will go bankrupt trying to fix the problem.

       Let's do this one point (or hole) at a time, shall we?

       What consequences can we expect in the broader war with the Islamic Crazy People from a another retreat in the region?  Wouldn't such a victory for said crazy people be a horrific blow to the hopes of a liberal reformation within Islam that is our best hope of not growing this mess into WWIII and IV?

quote:

All those various things that progressives have been trying to do since the 60s that have been systematically dismantled by the conservatives in power.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Doubt it.

   ???
   I'm not sure how you mean this, Owner59.  Please choose the response which best fits your intent.

A:  Me too.

B:  Are you kidding?  I have a whole list of questions I would want to ask.

None of the above.

I meant I doubt that you`d "love to hear some constructive thoughts" , on the subject.bush&co doesn`t listen. And neither does his brown-nose suck-ups .

People have been offering advice,thoughts,and real problem-solving know-how,for the last six fucking years. bush and his minions have arrogantly brushed it all to the side,and did just about anything they wanted to do.One example: not one of the 9/11 Commission recommendations were implemented by bush.Only recently(with Democrats in power) have any of those recommendations started to be implemented.


His apologists and defenders, have really only repeated the white house talking points ,w/ out a shred of logic.One example:"we`ll fight them there,so we don`t have to fight them here".That`s one of the most ridiculous ideas(and false,btw) ever to come of the white house.

I find it odd that the people who drove us into this ditch,are so quick to chide the rest of us,for not having an easy or quick solution for their mis-adventures.They made this mess,and are criticizing anyone who attempts to clean it up.And will say"well...what ideas have you got!?!"in a pissy way.

bush supporters,how do you sleep at night,knowing all the damage you`ve caused,knowing about all the lives and families you`ve destroyed?

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle


There is no Islamic Liberal Reformation.

http://www.dissentmagazine.org/article/?article=752

Amara and the tens of thousands of Muslim women who support her loathe the fundamentalist vision of a “fascist-like society that has nothing to do with democracy”—and unlike many “Clash of Civilizations” blowhards, she and her friends fight against it on the ground, every day. Some of their fights are small everyday acts of defiance: “Make-up has become war paint, a sign of resistance.” But many are larger: they reject the head scarf as “nothing more than a means of oppression emanating from a patriarchal society.” Travel on the tube as it leaves the Muslim East End, and you will see girls peeling off their hijabs and applying makeup with heart-pounding pleasure.


Tell that to them, Fargle.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level


Just because someone doesn't think the war in Iraq is wrong, doesn't make them a Bush apologist, of course. I certainly would not put Rich in any such category.

Just randomly thinking now, I, having voted for President Bush twice, sleep like a log. Not because I think Bush is a great president, nor because I like how Iraq has turned out, but because I do my best to be intellectually honest, and attempt to grow in knowledge, as time goes on, no matter which way that takes me.

Things are bad over there. Read a story last night, about how their entire electrical grid is about to collapse. The dead, and the dying, the sorrow, etc.

I say, find out from Petraious (sp?) how the surge is going, and then make adjustments. I have an overwhelming feeling that it isn't getting the job done.