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RE: Bad News From Iraq: We Might Be Winning - 8/5/2007 8:14:52 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59
Sorry,I don`t believe you.



      Denial of things that don't fit the talking points doesn't suprise me at all.  I have my doubts about your "many conservative friends" who'll give you access to their phones to call local businesses about their advertising (as referenced in one of the Fox News threads), but I rarely flat call people liars.  Maybe I was just raised better than that.



     edit to add:  The soldier in question is my brother, one of two currently serving in the military.

< Message edited by TheHeretic -- 8/5/2007 8:30:33 PM >

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That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to Owner59)
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RE: Bad News From Iraq: We Might Be Winning - 8/5/2007 8:20:04 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		Just got an email from one of my friends over there and thought I would share a quote

"if the dicks in Washington would just take the goddamn leash off, remove the fucking reporters, and let us do our job the right way, they would have peace here. There would be a severe population decline, but most people don't want to look at what it will really take to have peace here, Saddam knew what it took."

Anyway, it comes down to having a ruthless and firm hand to take care of ruthless people.

Orion

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RE: Bad News From Iraq: We Might Be Winning - 8/5/2007 8:21:59 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		Too little, too late.

Bush bet it all on "Surge".

That's why they call it GAMBLING. Me? I've never been a big fan of GAMBLING when there are lives on the line, myself...



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
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RE: Bad News From Iraq: We Might Be Winning - 8/5/2007 8:23:13 PM   
Owner59


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Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Really? Must be the area they are in because two friends of mine have mentioned the relations in the areas they have been in, have been real good. All the way to playing soccer, tag, basketball, and other such with some of the youths. They do say that there are many extremist that are around, that have a much different opinion.

Orion


quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

the topic is 180 from what a few kids that just got back told me.

they claim we are mostly hated by the iraqis and it was stoooopid to go in - in the first place




There are plenty of places where things are good,and relatively peaceful.
But that`s hardly the point.The Sunni triangle and Baghdad are a mess and getting worse.The death "rate" is going up for our soldiers.The civilian death rate is awful.
Hearing an individual here or there does not tell the whole story.The whole story is out there,if you want to see it.Not just our media,but the world`s news outlets have told the story.All that`s necessary is to listen to them.It`s not fair  to our soldiers,to only listen to the voices we want to.



_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

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RE: Bad News From Iraq: We Might Be Winning - 8/5/2007 8:29:54 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		        Here is the proper way to do it...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

The death "rate" is going up for our soldiers.



     Bullshit.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/07/31/iraq.main/index.html



_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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Profile   Post #: 85
RE: Bad News From Iraq: We Might Be Winning - 8/5/2007 8:32:51 PM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline 		You will have to not believe me also.
 
I know several over there ... some I went to High School with and one that is actually a tank Battalion commander. They pretty much insist that the majority of the men support the mission and want to see it through.
 
One is a Bush supporter to be sure, but most are pretty much middle of the road guys. The Battalion commander is openly critical of President Bush (at least while on leave) and if you called him a Bush hack or Kool-aid drinker, you would probably end up in intensive care.

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RE: Bad News From Iraq: We Might Be Winning - 8/5/2007 8:36:34 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		Never said it was fair, offered some information I had that was different than realone's. I noticed you did not comment about his not telling the whole story. Would that because it supports your agenda? Me, I don't know enough of the entire situation to make a decision yet. I think the best solutions is probably somewhere in the middle that none of the cheer leaders want to look at.

Orion

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Really? Must be the area they are in because two friends of mine have mentioned the relations in the areas they have been in, have been real good. All the way to playing soccer, tag, basketball, and other such with some of the youths. They do say that there are many extremist that are around, that have a much different opinion.

Orion


quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

the topic is 180 from what a few kids that just got back told me.

they claim we are mostly hated by the iraqis and it was stoooopid to go in - in the first place




There are plenty of places where things are good,and relatively peaceful.
But that`s hardly the point.The Sunni triangle and Baghdad are a mess and getting worse.The death "rate" is going up for our soldiers.The civilian death rate is awful.
Hearing an individual here or there does not tell the whole story.The whole story is out there,if you want to see it.Not just our media,but the world`s news outlets have told the story.All that`s necessary is to listen to them.It`s not fair  to our soldiers,to only listen to the voices we want to.




_____________________________

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RE: Bad News From Iraq: We Might Be Winning - 8/5/2007 8:40:50 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		People believe what they want. People post what supports their agenda. Until people can unite on things, the US is doomed. I say death to the fucking cheerleaders on both sides and then let the compromising moderates take care of things. Jesus people, does no one take pride in the country anymore? If not, then why the fuck are you here? Big division down the middle and the extremist in both political camps just fuel the fire, because it makes them seem righteous.

Orion

_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

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RE: Bad News From Iraq: We Might Be Winning - 8/5/2007 8:46:00 PM   
useu4good


Posts: 2
Joined: 7/2/2007
Status: offline 		Iraq is a pussy third-world country filled with sand and people who wear towels.  Like Jawas. 

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
Profile   Post #: 89
RE: Bad News From Iraq: We Might Be Winning - 8/5/2007 8:47:31 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

       Here is the proper way to do it...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

The death "rate" is going up for our soldiers.



    Bullshit.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/07/31/iraq.main/index.html




You crap ass,the overall rate is up.What you linked ,said there was a drop, following  worst three month period ever.
 
 
"As of Wednesday, 77 U.S. troops were killed in July, a striking drop from earlier this year when spring brought the worst three-month period for U.S. troop deaths since the war began:"
 

The rate of death for our soldiers is up.There are more deaths this year, than the year before,and so on.Stop w/ the bull shit and revisionism.Get on the side of America,and support our troops and help bring them home.Stop w/ the semi-clever attempts bull shit people on important things like the lives and welfare of our soldiers.


_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to TheHeretic)
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RE: Bad News From Iraq: We Might Be Winning - 8/5/2007 8:50:18 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
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quote:

ORIGINAL: useu4good

Iraq is a pussy third-world country filled with sand and people who wear towels.  Like Jawas. 


This was the republican, pre-9/11 mindset ,regarding the middle east.Now they`re the fucking experts.God help us......

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to useu4good)
Profile   Post #: 91
RE: Bad News From Iraq: We Might Be Winning - 8/5/2007 9:00:13 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

People believe what they want. People post what supports their agenda. Until people can unite on things, the US is doomed. I say death to the fucking cheerleaders on both sides and then let the compromising moderates take care of things. Jesus people, does no one take pride in the country anymore? If not, then why the fuck are you here? Big division down the middle and the extremist in both political camps just fuel the fire, because it makes them seem righteous.

Orion

If not for the Iraq war,no one would be getting angry.Because of the Iraq war,it`s our responsibility to be angry.If you`re not part of the solution,you are part of the problem.


What?Do you think bush and the Republicans would do anything right,without liberals dragging them there?Cheerleaders ,my ass!


And not for nothing,bush and the republicans have "called for us to unite".Their problem is that we have united and we`ve come together,...but it`s against bush and this illegal war.Little did they imagine that their call to unite,would turn out to be an anti-war movement.What dopes. Not you Orion,bush.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 8/5/2007 9:04:39 PM >

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
Profile   Post #: 92
RE: Bad News From Iraq: We Might Be Winning - 8/5/2007 9:01:08 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

You crap ass



         Now I'm going to refer you over to the "health and safety" forum to find a thread on extra large insertions....

      

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to Owner59)
Profile   Post #: 93
RE: Bad News From Iraq: We Might Be Winning - 8/6/2007 12:11:19 AM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		I am not asking for people to unite behind the war, but in a general consensus that the politicians are not really going to fix things, until they fix them. I don''t like Bush, I am not a registered party member of any party. I sometimes call myself a small "l" Libertarian, but mainly I am moderate with conservative leanings. I am not angry about the war, but the handling of it, from beginning to now. I am angry at the leadership, the congress, the press, many countries that had the ability to assist in ways other than military, big corporations, America;s knee jerk reaction to 911, and I am angry at the party cheerleaders.

Slinging insults back and forth, helps nothing. Let me say that again for those in the back row.

Slinging insults back and forth, helps nothing. Let me say that again for those in the back row.
 
If someone is really focused on solutions, then they don't just trip every ego/emotional landmine they can by stomping all over someone making insults. They come up with a solution, examine it from as many points as they can, then have contingencies and compromise in the back of their head. They break it down into points, and work on one point at a time.

Screaming all the time for Bush to be locked up, does nothing to solve the problem at hand, but it should also not be ignored. Using the term Neo-Cons, is a misnomer since neo means new and con is short for conservative, and the Non-cons have held very little of the traditional Republican values. Calling Dems wimpy liberals or what have you does nothing as well. The super extreme progressives as just as bad, by eliminating the individual and putting even more power in the hands of the federal government.

Instead of wasting alot of time posting and postulating, everyone should agree on one thing to start a movement. "The business as usual politics does not work." and then make a plan to vote out every sitting politician that is in there and say "you are now the example of the peoples power to enforce our servants to do as we wish.". Until the politicians get  tyanked back to reality, it will not matter who is in there. Hillary has already agreed to an allocation budget for 2008, along with many other reps and dems. Hell they have not even seen what has happened and they are approving? What the fuck does that tell you? There are representative on boths sides of the isle, tacking on pork spending for crap like "Home of the Best Christmas Tree" or some bullshit.

Dissent on the issues is a good thing, it allows many avenues to be looked and and explored. Dissent on thinking that one party or the other is going to make things better right now, is idiocy. Apply your energy appropriately, and force the politicians to be the servants of the people. Once that is done, force them to follow the constitution, investigate alot of things done in the last 16 years, and hold people fucking accountable. If we never hold them accountable, how the hell do we expect them to hold anyone else accountable.

Christ sakes maybe I should run for office.

Orion


_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to Owner59)
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RE: Bad News From Iraq: We Might Be Winning - 8/6/2007 3:45:01 AM   
Level


Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: useu4good

Iraq is a pussy third-world country filled with sand and people who wear towels.  Like Jawas. 


Well, I guess this says it all; we can all stop posting now.

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

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RE: Bad News From Iraq: We Might Be Winning - 8/6/2007 5:37:40 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Here is the proper way to do it...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

The death "rate" is going up for our soldiers.



Bullshit.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/07/31/iraq.main/index.html




Bullshit:

FTFA: "Still, July's (2007s) U.S. death toll is almost twice as high as for the same period last year -- 43 fatalities ( July 2006) -- a sign of the persistent violence in the long conflict."

SO, compared to LAST YEAR'S JULY NUMBERS it's twice as bad.

I don't know what kind of retard would look at straight numbers for a recent frame without doing an exponentially weighted moving average, OR honestly compare YTD vs. LAST YTD/MTD vs. LAST YEAR MTD.

Didn't these retards ever run a business?

Oh, yeah...

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: Bad News From Iraq: We Might Be Winning - 8/6/2007 5:42:59 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

the majority of the men support the mission and want to see it through.


And therein lies Bush's GREATEST crime.

Exploiting these brave people's HONOR AND INTEGRITY, by telling them "The Mission" is worth is, but not ever defining what "The Mission" is in clear terms, suitable for setting guidelines, timeframes and other strategic, logistical and tactical planning.

"We're turning the corner", and "6 more months" are just lies to keep the scam going.

EVERY DAY you don't bring them home YOU kill 2.25 American Kids.

How many more do you want to leave there to die?

*I* know where I stand, *I* do not want any more of our troops to die pointlessly. I want them the fuck home, now.

And *IF* a successor government becomes a threat to the US. We just send the Navy and Marines back to trash the place again.

Think about it. ALL THE RESERVISTS CAN COME HOME TODAY.

And National Security isn't affected a bit ( Not that National Security was *EVER* involved in Iraq, but some people whine about it and muslims... )



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: Bad News From Iraq: We Might Be Winning - 8/6/2007 6:18:56 AM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline 		Here.  Maybe we can talk more intelligently with some easy statistics.

End strengths are from here (page 28).

Deaths are from here.


Period        US deaths  Troops    Percent   
May-03        37        150,000    0.02%   
Jun-03        30        150,000    0.02%   
Jul-03        48        149,000    0.03%   
Aug-03        35        139,000    0.03%   
Sep-03        31        132,000    0.02%   
Oct-03        44        131,000    0.03%   
Nov-03        82        123,000    0.07%   
Dec-03        40        122,000    0.03%    Saddam Captured
Jan-04        47        122,000    0.04%   
Feb-04        20        115,000    0.02%   
Mar-04        52        130,000    0.04%   
Apr-04        135        137,000    0.10%   
May-04        80        138,000    0.06%   
Jun-04        42        138,000    0.03%    Transfer of sovereignty to interim Iraqi Gov.
Jul-04        54        140,000    0.04%   
Aug-04        66        140,000    0.05%   
Sep-04        80        138,000    0.06%   
Oct-04        64        138,000    0.05%   
Nov-04        137        138,000    0.10%   
Dec-04        72        148,000    0.05%   
Jan-05        107        150,000    0.07%    Iraq Elections - Iraqi Transitional Government
Feb-05        58        155,000    0.04%   
Mar-05        35        150,000    0.02%   
Apr-05        52        142,000    0.04%   
May-05        80        138,000    0.06%   
Jun-05        78        135,000    0.06%   
Jul-05        54        138,000    0.04%   
Aug-05        85        138,000    0.06%   
Sep-05        49        138,000    0.04%   
Oct-05        96        152,000    0.06%   
Nov-05        84        160,000    0.05%   
Dec-05        68        160,000    0.04%    Elections under new Iraqi Constitution
Jan-06        62        136,000    0.05%   
Feb-06        55        133,000    0.04%   
Mar-06        31        133,000    0.02%   
Apr-06        76        132,000    0.06%   
May-06        69        132,000    0.05%    Current government of Iraq took office
Jun-06        61        126,900    0.05%   
Jul-06        43        130,000    0.03%   
Aug-06        65        138,000    0.05%   
Sep-06        72        144,000    0.05%   
Oct-06        106        144,000    0.07%   
Nov-06        70        140,000    0.05%   
Dec-06        112        140,000    0.08%   
Jan-07        83        132,000    0.06%    "Surge" announced
Feb-07        81        135,000    0.06%   
Mar-07        81        142,000    0.06%   
Apr-07        104        146,000    0.07%
May-07        126        149,700    0.08%
Jun-07        101        157,000    0.06%
Jul-07        80        160,000    0.05%
Aug-07        11        160,000    0.01%
                           Average    0.05%


There are a lot more "stats" you can throw in here, if you wish.  Just check out the two sources, and make your own charts.

Firm



_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 98
RE: Bad News From Iraq: We Might Be Winning - 8/6/2007 6:21:35 AM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline 		What would be really interesting is to chart the casuality and attack figures by month to political developments in the US.

Firm


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Some people are just idiots.

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Profile   Post #: 99
RE: Bad News From Iraq: We Might Be Winning - 8/6/2007 6:25:04 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		and I am unclear here, but the overall picture is important, not fractionalized debate that is compartmentalized so that one can make apparently true sentences, but the whole is not barbara (I am quite sure you know the meaning of barbara as it is used in logical argument).

Where is the indication of the troop surge.  We know it is occuring and has been for some time, someones numbers are inchoate, whos I am unclear on.

Ron  

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 100
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