How fair do you want taxes? (Full Version)

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OrionTheWolf -> How fair do you want taxes? (8/6/2007 10:08:17 PM)

GOP debate talks about the Fair Tax suggestion and dismantling the IRS. One of the best comments I heard was "income tax gives the government too much power, it rewards you for doing what they want you to do, with tax cuts and credits, and penalizes you for what they don't want you to do". 23% Tax across the board.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CW4fa6Z_4Po

If you really want to send a message, and take power away from the politicians, so they have one less tool to manipulate you with, then at least read about it http://www.fairtax.org/


Orion



SugarMyChurro -> RE: How fair do you want taxes? (8/6/2007 10:29:01 PM)

Federal Sales Tax. Eliminate all paperwork that is privacy intrusive to individuals.

Retain income tax for greater control of corporations. Corporations were always the intended subjects of the income tax, we let it get out of hand.



Real0ne -> RE: How fair do you want taxes? (8/6/2007 10:35:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

GOP debate talks about the Fair Tax suggestion and dismantling the IRS. One of the best comments I heard was "income tax gives the government too much power, it rewards you for doing what they want you to do, with tax cuts and credits, and penalizes you for what they don't want you to do". 23% Tax across the board.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CW4fa6Z_4Po

If you really want to send a message, and take power away from the politicians, so they have one less tool to manipulate you with, then at least read about it http://www.fairtax.org/


Orion



NO FUCKING WAY!

In the end it will make things worse than it is now.

Again i can see history repeating itself.

It started with a 2% tax on excise and capitation which no one felt to bad about and fell on the backs of only those in business and not wage earners.  Look what it grew into now!!!

This is just another bullshit offer this and do that smoke screen to bait us into making piss poor laws.

Get rid of the irs and go to the DOT, and most importantly dismantle the federal reserve and give us power over our own money again.

People have no idea how horribly it is killing this country that the interest money is going out with no capital returns on that money.  a fucking loan of money we can borrow against ourselves with no interest, or interest paid to ourselfs.  remember the war bonds?  well i dont know how old you are.

Anyway we need to settle for nothing less than repealing the 16th and go back to the original version of apportioned and unapportioned including in the states who have strayed along with the feds.

That and why is the government willing ot make these changes?  Simple because of people like alex jones arron russo benson and i can give you a long list of people who have worked very hard to expose this tax fraud.  dont settle for any less than a repeal of the 16th and make those assholes be accountable rather than bite on another trojan horse.  Then debate of the price.

Send repeal the 16th letters to your congress people.

Keep in mind tax on income was directed at the feds as they were priviledged and tax was once considered for luxury not quid pro q for them as it was for the wage earner.

You do realize that if you are a laboror that they are taxing you for the "priviledge to survive".   Survival is not a priviledge it is a natural right.

Anyway Mark my words man in a few years you will be paying more than you are now if you go with this flat tax bullshit. 

remember congress had to pass bills with sunsets on them to collect taxes for specific purposes back in those days and they had expirations.   i think our forefathers had an excellent system and its time to go back to it.  These morons did this scam so they could circumvent the process and give themselves a blank check. 

the only reasonably fair tax is the original constitution and build off of that.


Anyway enough on that.



Archer -> RE: How fair do you want taxes? (8/6/2007 10:38:06 PM)

Don't forget that it has a few more working class benifits and some for the lowest level as well.

1. Prebate based on family size and poverty level the government cuts every family a check for the taxes on spending up to the poverty level. (So those under that level pay no net taxes)

2. Workers get their entire checks The 23% covers all those payroll taxes including Social Security and Medicare. So we all would get our entire paychecks minus whatever insurance, 401K (voluntary deductions)

3. The tax as proposed is only on NEW items used items are sold without an additional tax. (used cars, used homes, second hand items that are all many low and middle class follks can afford are not taxed again.

4. Reduction in consummerism, people will start to repair and make things last a little longer to avoid having to buy new and thus pay the taxes.

5. Oh and some of the black market since spending is taxed so those items bought with money from black market still get caught in the taxes.

6. Illegal Immigrants spending above the poverty level for anything "new" would pay their share as well.

BTW SugarMyChurro you'll hate this but it eliminates all Corporate taxes since they are simply passed on to either the stock holders or the customers anyway.





SugarMyChurro -> RE: How fair do you want taxes? (8/6/2007 10:38:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne
You do realize that if you are a laboror that they are taxing you for the "priviledge to survive".   Survival is not a priviledge it is a natural right.


Welcome to the party, comrade!



Real0ne -> RE: How fair do you want taxes? (8/6/2007 10:42:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

Federal Sales Tax. Eliminate all paperwork that is privacy intrusive to individuals.

Retain income tax for greater control of corporations. Corporations were always the intended subjects of the income tax, we let it get out of hand.


well people always had to fill out a return you know...  but the difference is that they separated what was taxable and what was not.  wage earners did not pay taxes on their wages, however federal government employees did!  (a proviledge tax)

You are dead on target there!  Corps were the original targets for income taxes as well as interstate and international commerce.





Archer -> RE: How fair do you want taxes? (8/6/2007 10:46:39 PM)

Realone part of the Fair Tax Law is the repeal of the 16th. Oh forgot we don't bother with source documents here,

Edit for correction it repeals all the parts of the 16th that relate to Income Taxes not the entire ammendment as that would require a 2/3 ratification by the states and make it unworkable in the short term.

SEC. 101. INCOME TAXES REPEALED.
    Subtitle A of title 26 of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 (relating to income taxes and self-employment taxes) is repealed.
SEC. 102. PAYROLL TAXES REPEALED.
    (a) IN GENERAL- Subtitle C of title 26 of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 (relating to payroll taxes and withholding of income taxes) is repealed.
    (b) FUNDING OF SOCIAL SECURITY- For funding of the Social Security Trust Funds from general revenue, see section 201 of the Social Security Act (42 U.S.C. 401).
SEC. 103. ESTATE AND GIFT TAXES REPEALED.
    Subtitle B of title 26 of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 (relating to estate and gift taxes) is repealed.



Real0ne -> RE: How fair do you want taxes? (8/6/2007 10:49:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

Don't forget that it has a few more working class benifits and some for the lowest level as well.

1. Prebate based on family size and poverty level the government cuts every family a check for the taxes on spending up to the poverty level. (So those under that level pay no net taxes)

2. Workers get their entire checks The 23% covers all those payroll taxes including Social Security and Medicare. So we all would get our entire paychecks minus whatever insurance, 401K (voluntary deductions)

3. The tax as proposed is only on NEW items used items are sold without an additional tax. (used cars, used homes, second hand items that are all many low and middle class follks can afford are not taxed again.

4. Reduction in consummerism, people will start to repair and make things last a little longer to avoid having to buy new and thus pay the taxes.

5. Oh and some of the black market since spending is taxed so those items bought with money from black market still get caught in the taxes.

6. Illegal Immigrants spending above the poverty level for anything "new" would pay their share as well.

BTW SugarMyChurro you'll hate this but it eliminates all Corporate taxes since they are simply passed on to either the stock holders or the customers anyway.






wondrful and what do you plan on doing about mission creep? 

Are they going to give a 23% for the rest of the time this country exists?  no fucking way.

If we repeal the 16th we get most if not all those benifits anyway.   The flat tax is being used to pull money from the citizen instead of the corporations as was the original intention of the constitution that was designed by the guys who knew every tax scam in the books.  after this country came into existance over a tax fued!

All those nifty programs can remain gov managed but should be apportioned among the states as the money flows in.

Get that flat tax and it wont be long and it will creep up to 60% in our lifetimes.

That sounds so good but still gives the government an open check bokk.




Real0ne -> RE: How fair do you want taxes? (8/6/2007 10:50:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

Realone part of the Fair Tax Law is the repeal of the 16th. Oh forgot we don't bother with source documents here,




oh i did not see that

i will research it further i thought this was just more beurcratic horseshit.

which means i will shut up on it for now, but i have a sneaking hunch that taxation will not be as it was originally intended so i hold my peace for now



Archer -> RE: How fair do you want taxes? (8/6/2007 10:55:39 PM)

But Real the fair tax help minimize mission creep in taxes because to raise it on one they must raise it on all.

No more divide and conquer class warfare.
End of cororate taxation means end of the taxation without representation argument being able to be applied and will reduce the power of corporate/industry lobbies.




Archer -> RE: How fair do you want taxes? (8/6/2007 10:57:18 PM)

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?c108:1:./temp/~c108wlwcBO:e6114:

That is the link to the Fair Tax Legislation (which is different than the Flat Tax proposals)
It's at the Thomas website which prints the proposals as written without spin.



Real0ne -> RE: How fair do you want taxes? (8/6/2007 11:04:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

BTW SugarMyChurro you'll hate this but it eliminates all Corporate taxes since they are simply passed on to either the stock holders or the customers anyway.



ok that alone circumvents the original design.

The whole point of taxing tyhe corporations was that if they gave us to high of prices we would not buy!  That means we have a choice to pay the price and the tax or not by choosing to buy or not buy.

the 25% tax across the board FORCES us to pay for taxes regardless and is not accordsing to original design because it would NOT give us an option.  unless we wanted to become poor.  So without any research that in itself makes this sytem a no go because it FORCES US rather than allows us freedom of choice NOT TO BUY!

This is seemingly insignificant till ou work out the system dynamics.

That and it takes the load off the corporations entirely.  The corporations paid a tax on income because they are a corporation and have resourses the common single man in biz do not. 

When the corps prices got to high the little guys prices start looking really good and brings more biz people into the economy!

Our forefathers had a great plan man! really wish more peeps would study and think it through before jumping on these 1/2 assed taxing schemes.

this is nothing more than a corp/government scam, nothing more than a wolf in sheeps clothing.







Real0ne -> RE: How fair do you want taxes? (8/6/2007 11:24:13 PM)

ok here is another scam.

they do not get rid of the fed reserve!

Inflation IS a tax!!!!

It is a hidden tax and without getting rid of it they can piss with the inflation rates and jack it even higher un-be-known to us.

Its simply not that simple as to just give us this new and wonderful tax if the sytem is not overhauled including getting rid of the fedseral reserve!!!

So there you have it.  If you want fair tax, get rid of the federal reserve, tax the corporations for federal income tax and anyone who comes under excise and capitation tax.

Continue to tax incomes from federal employees.

This will grow business in the economy and get more little guys in biz and they would only pay taxes on interstate biz not fed tax on their wages.

The only reason our tax system and economy got into trouble is that we needed loans to fight wars and it was easier for the gov to deal with morgan and warburg etc. than it was the american people,  (they no longer need our permission).

We need to get that part back in place and that is the most singular important issue in the taxing scheme, even more important than how much we pay.  for real!



SugarMyChurro -> RE: How fair do you want taxes? (8/6/2007 11:50:09 PM)

As is observed in that video, congress would go looking for recommendations from the federal reserve - not simply tell it what to expect.

Real revolution will be to tell the world banks that we are going to renegotiate our national loans for pennies on the dollar (or whatever currency is preferred) - take it or leave it. Cya!



Real0ne -> RE: How fair do you want taxes? (8/6/2007 11:57:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

As is observed in that video, congress would go looking for recommendations from the federal reserve - not simply tell it what to expect.

Real revolution will be to tell the world banks that we are going to renegotiate our national loans for pennies on the dollar (or whatever currency is preferred) - take it or leave it. Cya!


yup they would pull money back so fast it isnt funny to crash our economy to hold us ransom like they did in jeffersons time and in 29.  fuckers

So the treasury woudl have top print money as fast as those assholes pull it back LOL


Now that would make a statement to the rest of the world wouldnt it?



SimplyMichael -> RE: How fair do you want taxes? (8/7/2007 12:00:49 AM)

Inflation exists regardless of how money is backed, even when it was actual gold and silver, the Fed doesn't create inflation, they just influence it.

Counting on citizens to do anything is worse than almost anything you can imagine, they are too stupid for their own good.  I mean look how many watch FOX while breathing through their mouths.



Archer -> RE: How fair do you want taxes? (8/7/2007 7:28:40 AM)

Embedded Taxes already cost us about 23 cents on the dollar and we don't even see it.
Those taxes would be removed. ignoring the fact that companies pass on any and all taxes to ether stock hlders (In the form of reduced return on investment thus effecting the individual holders of the stock including 401K's, Mutual Funds, Retrement investments of other sorts), or they massage the price, or usually both, is idealistic at best.

The corporation doesn't pay taxes regardless, all taxes come out of someone's (individual or groups of individuals) individual pocket.

Consider the additional benifit of reversing the trend of offshoring.
Reduce the taxation at the corporate level and watch as industres and corporations flock to the US away from other nations where their cost of doing business would be higher.
JOBS JOBS JOBS Thus expanding the economy.

Realone  one thing you missed as far as being able to avoid individual taxes.
After the prebate (where you have surassed poverty level spending needed to buy the very basic level of goods and services) you don't HAVE to spend your money on anything, and if you only spend on used goods you avoid paying any taxes at all.

Oh and the corporations do have a taxation they face but it's only on the non production goods and services they purchase.
If it goes into the product no tax if it goes to admin or support for the company taxed. (ie write a check for widget production supply no tax, write a check for a new computer for the CEO taxed.)



DomKen -> RE: How fair do you want taxes? (8/7/2007 7:56:33 AM)

This is a miserably bad plan. How do I know that? Because of which republicans are supporting it. Faster than you could say WTF! there would be all sorts of stuff exempt from the sales tax, big real estate sales, luxury goods of every stripe, to stimulate the economy they would claim. Then they would start howling about the welfare queens and their checks offsetting this tax so that would get repealed or sunsetted in short order, much as they try and kill the EITC every few years. And we'd be right back where we are now with the wealthy paying far too little in taxes and the poor and middle class having to carry the load.

I don't particularly like the present income tax system but I'm already paying almost 10% in sales tax on top of a state income tax that wouldn't likely be going away so I would much prefer the present system to paying a sales tax of 30 to 50%.



CuriousLord -> RE: How fair do you want taxes? (8/7/2007 8:03:46 AM)

A linear tax (23%) would be neat.  It would have to be applied to just about everything, though- whatever the % is set at.

If you do something silly, like only apply it to sales, saving money will become much more economically viable than it currently is, slowing the economy and inviting mass inflation.



UtopianRanger -> RE: How fair do you want taxes? (8/7/2007 8:21:19 AM)

quote:

Real revolution will be to tell the world banks that we are going to renegotiate our national loans for pennies on the dollar (or whatever currency is preferred) - take it or leave it. Cya!



Yes----No more tokens to his Lordship before us peasants cross the foot bridge  ; }




- R



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