RE: How fair do you want taxes?

RE: How fair do you want taxes? (Full Version)

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OrionTheWolf -> RE: How fair do you want taxes? (8/8/2007 6:20:00 AM)
Archer, I agree about the best chance being missed in 2005, but that is also why I bring it up everywhere I go. The more people that hear and learn about, the more it can be discussed, fine tuned and hopefully passed. Orion

DomKen -> RE: How fair do you want taxes? (8/8/2007 11:18:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Archer DomKen Everything I have said regarding the way the Fair tax is designed to work is in the body of the bill. I provided you with the link to the text of the source document, What you want me to hold your hand through reading it too??? The bill had as many Democratic Co sponsors as Republicans up till Pelosi took over leadership (It is in the congresional record you can look it up if you don't believe it. 107 and 108 th congress if I recall correctly. So your partisan charges are all hat and no boots. 2. The collection agency of the states is the method of collection, hell the infrastructure is already in place in every state I know of to collect sales tax, along with the book keeping to audit the books if nessissary. All that means is the state collects the additional taxes at point of sale, and then they forward that tax to the Federal Government. Simplisity itself. 3. correct nothing in the bill effects your state taxes to have been perfectly clear maybe I should have included the word Federal Witholding Taxes, Seeing as we were discussing Federal Taxation I thought it could go without saying My bad. 4 The market forces will cause that to happen as soon as one business starts the price war to reflect the absence of taxes on them, nobody will be able to afford to not follow suit COMPETITION will force them to do it. 5 You didn't read very carefully FINAL Destination is the only point the steak would be taxed sale from Farmer to meatpacker no tax sale from meat packer to Distributer, no tax, Distributer to Store not tax Store to consumer Then and only then does it get taxed. Did you not even bother to read the source docuument provided?????? I seriously doubt it. The piggy backing of taxes is already what is built into the invisible embeded taxes I spoke about earlier. They already exist to the tune of oddly enough a 22% average + or - a little for different industries. You're already paying them in the cost of goods and services and don't even know it. At least with the Fair Tax the system is transparent as to how much taxes they are collecting from us. Orion I'm pretty framiliar with the proposal and know about the book Congressman Linder and Neil Boortz wrote about it. It's been on the NY Times Best sellers list which gives it some hope. The fact that it has been asked about to all the Republican Candidates, tells me it's gaining some traction. I'm hopefull for the future of the Bill. I think we missed the best chance to get it passed in 2005. I read this bill back a few years ago and haven't bothered since. I clearly forgot some details. Though if it is only final destination that is ludicrous. That basically lets the big corporations pay nothing what so ever in federal taxes. If Ford, Microsoft etc. get to stop paying corporate income taxes that money is going to come out of somebody's pocket and I'm not interested in paying it myself. As to your claim of 23% and not any more. I say that is naive. Show me the research that indicates Americans buy in excess of $12 trillion a year. Also where is the wording of the law that says the states and local bodies can't tack on a sales tax themselves? I'm right now paying 9.8% sales tax so that would bump me up to 32.9% before any changesin state income taxes etc. I'm actually perfectly willing to bet that the total sales tax in NY, CA, IL and some of the other major urban states would be well in excess of 50%. That some Dems signed on when they were in the minority is no surprise since many Dems are little better than the GOP. It still doesn't change my mind that when the worst of the worst GOP scum are supportive of something I'll oppose it under the tried and true policy if they're for it it is bad for me. This has held true since the first round of Reagan tax "cuts" where my federal taxes actually went up even though I didn't make any more. Reagonomics, all of Bush the first's programs, the contract on america, GWB's entire term: all uniformly bad for me and mine. Show me a program like the new health care bill or family leave or virtually everything else done by the feds in my lifetime over the GOP's objections and I willing to bet that a few years down the road most everyone will be pleased they got passed.

Lordandmaster -> RE: How fair do you want taxes? (8/8/2007 11:23:23 PM)
Why doesn't the GOP ever talk about property taxes? Those are the taxes that mean the most to the majority of Americans. If you're living on either coast, you're paying much more in property taxes than in any other kind of tax. Even if you're renting, you can be sure that it's included in your rent. quote: ORIGINAL: Archer Realone part of the Fair Tax Law is the repeal of the 16th. Oh forgot we don't bother with source documents here, Edit for correction it repeals all the parts of the 16th that relate to Income Taxes not the entire ammendment as that would require a 2/3 ratification by the states and make it unworkable in the short term. SEC. 101. INCOME TAXES REPEALED. Subtitle A of title 26 of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 (relating to income taxes and self-employment taxes) is repealed. SEC. 102. PAYROLL TAXES REPEALED. (a) IN GENERAL- Subtitle C of title 26 of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 (relating to payroll taxes and withholding of income taxes) is repealed. (b) FUNDING OF SOCIAL SECURITY- For funding of the Social Security Trust Funds from general revenue, see section 201 of the Social Security Act (42 U.S.C. 401). SEC. 103. ESTATE AND GIFT TAXES REPEALED. Subtitle B of title 26 of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 (relating to estate and gift taxes) is repealed.

Archer -> RE: How fair do you want taxes? (8/9/2007 5:28:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster Why doesn't the GOP ever talk about property taxes? Those are the taxes that mean the most to the majority of Americans. If you're living on either coast, you're paying much more in property taxes than in any other kind of tax. Even if you're renting, you can be sure that it's included in your rent. Well because Property Taxes are out of their jurisdiction?

Lordandmaster -> RE: How fair do you want taxes? (8/9/2007 9:04:55 AM)
Huh? When I vote for my local representatives, there's one column that says "Democratic," and one that says "Republican" (and a whole lotta other columns for parties that don't mean much).

Durus -> RE: How fair do you want taxes? (8/9/2007 10:11:46 AM)
The Fair Tax includes repeal of the 16th amendment.

Archer -> RE: How fair do you want taxes? (8/9/2007 10:24:52 AM)
OK let me break this down even further. Property Taxes when you write that check it's to Who??? State or local Government correct. There is no Federal Property Tax to my knowledge. School Districts, State, County, they sometimes have property taxes. Thus since the Bill of Rights Includes the 10th ammendment The Federal Government has no jurisdiction over a State or County level tax. Does that clear up the issue? Your Federal congressman, and both your Federal Senators cannot do jack about property tax regardless of their political party. Want those property taxes lowered you'll have to work with your City/ County/ State level governments.

Stephann -> RE: How fair do you want taxes? (8/9/2007 10:31:12 AM)
Greetings Orion, I've always believed in a flat tax. What I'm really writing about, though, is that the power to enact this sort of sweeping system wide change doesn't exist anymore. It would require the sort of media attention that the powers that be will never, ever, ever, ever permit. For the same reason you'll never hear about a class action lawsuit against Ted Turner on CNN, the very media industry that profits from this sort of change has zero incentive to address the issue. Because we rely on corporations for the majority of our news, the version of the news we receive will always be 'corporate friendly.' Why do you think not one major newspaper excludes a 'sports' section if you doubt this. Stephan

Lordandmaster -> RE: How fair do you want taxes? (8/9/2007 10:51:03 AM)
Archer, please stop talking as though everyone who doesn't immediately salute you is a fucking idiot. It's tiresome, and it's the sign of a massive chip on the shoulder. I know very well where my property taxes go, thank you very much. If the GOP wants to do something significant about my taxes, they need to do something about my property taxes. My federal taxes can hardly go lower at this point. I hear congressmen and presidential candidates jabbering about some tax plan that would replace federal income taxes with a 23% sales tax, and that's not going to do jackshit for me. They may as well be speaking Swahili. When they have a plan to lower my property taxes, they'll be saying something that matters. And, bless them, they have the mean to address the problem if it meant anything to them. But it doesn't, and that's the issue. All the Republicans ever seem to talk about is how to shift even more of the tax burden from the rich to the poor. Oh, that and how much they hate terrorists and believe in God. Watching the GOP debates has been pretty nauseating. quote: ORIGINAL: Archer OK let me break this down even further. Property Taxes when you write that check it's to Who??? State or local Government correct. There is no Federal Property Tax to my knowledge. School Districts, State, County, they sometimes have property taxes. Thus since the Bill of Rights Includes the 10th ammendment The Federal Government has no jurisdiction over a State or County level tax. Does that clear up the issue? Your Federal congressman, and both your Federal Senators cannot do jack about property tax regardless of their political party. Want those property taxes lowered you'll have to work with your City/ County/ State level governments.

GhitaAmati -> RE: How fair do you want taxes? (8/9/2007 11:26:20 AM)
Question.....no I havent done much research into this other than listning to Neil Boortz...so forgive my ignorance... But, everthing Ive seen and read over this fair tax idea since this thread started...its only talking about federal tax....so does that mean if it passes, we will still be paying the state and local taxes too? I know all states dont do it, but some have a yearly income tax that works just about the same way the federal taxes do...plus the 7 or 8 percent on all sales....

DomKen -> RE: How fair do you want taxes? (8/9/2007 11:45:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GhitaAmati Question.....no I havent done much research into this other than listning to Neil Boortz...so forgive my ignorance... But, everthing Ive seen and read over this fair tax idea since this thread started...its only talking about federal tax....so does that mean if it passes, we will still be paying the state and local taxes too? That's right. quote: I know all states dont do it, but some have a yearly income tax that works just about the same way the federal taxes do...plus the 7 or 8 percent on all sales.... The theory is aparently that all other taxing bodies will simply cease to exist and all we'll pay is 23% to the feds. Nobody bothers with answering the questions about how high would the total sales tax be if the states followed the feds down this path.

DomKen -> RE: How fair do you want taxes? (8/9/2007 11:46:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Durus The Fair Tax includes repeal of the 16th amendment. No it does not. No law can invalidate a part of the US Constitution. To get rid of the 16th they would need another ammendment like how prohibition was repealed. IOW not going to happen.

Archer -> RE: How fair do you want taxes? (8/9/2007 12:00:27 PM)
LordandMaster name like that and I've got a chip, Now that's funny as hell. (btw I know it's a funny ha ha name so save it) Seen a few chips on your shoulder over the year or so as well Hi Mr Pot my name is Kettle. Not asking for a flippin salute mearly basic academic honesty, I figure asking someone to read and understand the source document when a link is provided before forming an opinion isn't too much to ask in a discussion. Want propety taxes discussed as part of the total taxation picture? Lets see what color are those coastal states that have the higher property tax bills you compain about? Majority BLUE. 12 states D 5 states red if I recall correctly. If the state that set the taxes is Democratic run how is it the Republican's fault???

Archer -> RE: How fair do you want taxes? (8/9/2007 12:06:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GhitaAmati Question.....no I havent done much research into this other than listning to Neil Boortz...so forgive my ignorance... But, everthing Ive seen and read over this fair tax idea since this thread started...its only talking about federal tax....so does that mean if it passes, we will still be paying the state and local taxes too? I know all states dont do it, but some have a yearly income tax that works just about the same way the federal taxes do...plus the 7 or 8 percent on all sales.... Correct it has no effect at all on how the States or local governments collect their taxes. It only changes how the federal taxes are calculated and collected. States are not expected to do anything from this law except act as a collection agent. (ie they use the same system they already use for their sales taxes to collect and then put the new federal tax into an account to be transfered to the Federal Government)

GhitaAmati -> RE: How fair do you want taxes? (8/9/2007 12:17:35 PM)
Then please dont get me wrong, but why would I want it? I personally havent had to pay federal taxes in over 5 years, have yet to earn an income high enough to be liable for federal taxes.....

Durus -> RE: How fair do you want taxes? (8/9/2007 12:27:32 PM)
I'm aware of how the constitution is amended. The fair tax, as part of it's plan, is to begin the amendment process. The likelyhood of it passing is irrelevent to dicussion of the plan.

Archer -> RE: How fair do you want taxes? (8/9/2007 12:35:13 PM)
Odds are then that under the fair tax you would end up paying no net taxes either. The prebate would cover the taxes on all spending up to the poverty level. after that you'd start to pay out of your pocket. Odds are you would end up with no gain or loss in this area. However you would get almost all your paycheck. Social Security would no longer be taken out of your check, nor would medicare, those costs being transfered to the Fair Tax account. The only deductions remaining would be any state taxes in your state. Being you are in Florida it would mean if you get $10 an hour wage your paycheck at the end of the two weeks would be $800 (minus your insurance and 401K if applicable). Additonally your benifit would be that you no longer have to file a federal Income Tax return. April 15 would be just another day.

GhitaAmati -> RE: How fair do you want taxes? (8/9/2007 12:39:24 PM)
But I never filed before anyway, and april 15th WAS always just another day....and neither social security nor medicare come out of my check now...I dont get a check...I get cash

Archer -> RE: How fair do you want taxes? (8/9/2007 1:06:40 PM)
If you are under $3,000 or $4,000 a year then you don't have to file as I understand it. Are you telling me you have been under that amount thus far? Otherwise the requirement to file remains and you could be breaking the law by not fileing at least even if it means you have no tax consequences. If that is the case then the Fair Tax will benifit you even more since it prebates you on the taxes up to the poverty level, being well bellow that you can't spend more than poverty level. The prebate works simply the Government will issue a check to every head of household or independant person every month, the amount of the chek would be based on the size of the household and the poverty level for that sized family 1 person poverty level is $10,210 so the prebate would be $2,348 ($196/mth). 1 +1 dependant poverty level is $13,690 so the prebate is $3,149 ($262/mth). Likely your Sir claims you as a dependant so you would have 3 folks if I recall correctly. Couple + 1 child Poverty level is $23,900 so prebate is $5,497 ($458/mth) Working off the books as you do it's gonna hurt your possition a little since the books won't make a difference you'll be taxed on consumption not income. So in your case you have a trade off to figure out.

GhitaAmati -> RE: How fair do you want taxes? (8/9/2007 2:28:24 PM)
Actually Archer, there would be Sir, me and 4 boys.....and yea, my personal income from wages is usually under the $4000 mark. It would actually cost more for me to go to work and pay daycare for three small children than I would make in a week. After 24 years in the Military, Sir makes OK wages, and we dont have a mortgage or any car payments or credit card bills. We dont live very high on the hog, but our kids are well taken care of, we dont drive brand new vehicles and we dont take long expensive vacations.

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