RE: How fair do you want taxes?

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Lordandmaster -> RE: How fair do you want taxes? (8/9/2007 4:11:28 PM)
Archer, 1. Not everything has to be a confrontation. With you, it's always, either (a) agree with you totally, or (b) be prepared for a pissing contest. It makes people not want to talk to you. 2. What I am saying has nothing to do with the source document. That's the point. The source document may as well be referring to taxation on Neptune. It's irrelevant to me and most ordinary Americans. (Who WOULD benefit from this new plan? The mega-rich, who actually pay a lot in federal taxes--though a lot less than they used to. Surprise surprise.) 3. It's not Red vs. Blue. At least, that's not how I view politics. Politics to me is how do we make a better world. I couldn't care less whom I am supposed to "blame" for the fact that my property taxes (and those of most ordinary Americans) are too high. All I care about is who has an idea to improve the situation. And, guess what: Republicans don't. Now bye bye, because I'm tired of arguing with you. Sometimes you actually say interesting things, and then as soon as someone has a different point of view, you start acting like a bulldog. It's a bore. quote: ORIGINAL: Archer LordandMaster name like that and I've got a chip, Now that's funny as hell. (btw I know it's a funny ha ha name so save it) Seen a few chips on your shoulder over the year or so as well Hi Mr Pot my name is Kettle. Not asking for a flippin salute mearly basic academic honesty, I figure asking someone to read and understand the source document when a link is provided before forming an opinion isn't too much to ask in a discussion. Want propety taxes discussed as part of the total taxation picture? Lets see what color are those coastal states that have the higher property tax bills you compain about? Majority BLUE. 12 states D 5 states red if I recall correctly. If the state that set the taxes is Democratic run how is it the Republican's fault???

OrionTheWolf -> RE: How fair do you want taxes? (8/9/2007 4:50:26 PM)
Greetings Stephan, But the media attention is getting more every month. The amount of people joining and assisting to spread the information about it from www.fairtax.org is growing. There are rallies occuring everywhere. The politicians are being asked about it. It is gaining more attention. As to corporations getting taxed, then the stockholders getting taxed, that is a double tax and should be illegal. Just like there should be no gift or inheritance tax. The government is being just like the Mafia when they do that. Microsoft is an enitity that other make money from, so take the money that is actually being paid to individuals. The exception would be money paid to corps outside the US, and those should pay a hefty tax for making money here. Orion quote: ORIGINAL: Stephann Greetings Orion, I've always believed in a flat tax. What I'm really writing about, though, is that the power to enact this sort of sweeping system wide change doesn't exist anymore. It would require the sort of media attention that the powers that be will never, ever, ever, ever permit. For the same reason you'll never hear about a class action lawsuit against Ted Turner on CNN, the very media industry that profits from this sort of change has zero incentive to address the issue. Because we rely on corporations for the majority of our news, the version of the news we receive will always be 'corporate friendly.' Why do you think not one major newspaper excludes a 'sports' section if you doubt this. Stephan

OrionTheWolf -> RE: How fair do you want taxes? (8/9/2007 4:58:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster Archer, 1. Not everything has to be a confrontation. With you, it's always, either (a) agree with you totally, or (b) be prepared for a pissing contest. It makes people not want to talk to you. I have had disagreements with him and neither of these things occured. hmmmm quote: 2. What I am saying has nothing to do with the source document. That's the point. The source document may as well be referring to taxation on Neptune. It's irrelevant to me and most ordinary Americans. (Who WOULD benefit from this new plan? The mega-rich, who actually pay a lot in federal taxes--though a lot less than they used to. Surprise surprise.) Prove this assertion, as the Fairtax book and running the numbers seems to prove otherwise. quote: 3. It's not Red vs. Blue. At least, that's not how I view politics. Politics to me is how do we make a better world. I couldn't care less whom I am supposed to "blame" for the fact that my property taxes (and those of most ordinary Americans) are too high. All I care about is who has an idea to improve the situation. And, guess what: Republicans don't. I thought you made a comment about the republicans that were supporting it, I must be mistaken. Regardless though, property tax is a local matter, not a federal one. quote: Now bye bye, because I'm tired of arguing with you. Sometimes you actually say interesting things, and then as soon as someone has a different point of view, you start acting like a bulldog. It's a bore.

NeedToUseYou -> RE: How fair do you want taxes? (8/9/2007 6:48:38 PM)
You know I was thinking about this tax a bit, and I'm not so sure it would be as advantageous to corporate tax reduction as first appears. Currently, corporations get to write everything off against their taxes, like fuel, dinners for soliciting clients, corporate trips, Motels, Car rentals, office supply expenses, everything pretty much. Now, I don't know but we do take advantage of that when we go somewhere for business, and eat out, motels etc... Sorta, you know taking more time than one really needs to, staying an extra day because it's getting written off, etc.... still it falls under the rules. But if all that kind of thing was not a write off. Well, you can be sure the corporations would be running those kind of things way more efficiently instead of using them as an executive perk machine. Which is what it is really. Company meeting in Las Vegas for example. Why in las Vegas, because company can give a nice trip and write it all off, that's why. So, you go to a couple hour company meeting then party time!!. It seems that kind of waste would stop or be treated for what it really is anyway, a vacation that is taxed. Anywho, that is a good thing in my book. I'm not sure how much the average corporation pays for write-offable stuff, or activities, but it seems it would be quite a lot. So, the taxes would increase on corporations in that regard. How much versus traditional taxes is unknown. But multinationals typically pay very little tax anyway, because they offshore the tax burden to favourable tax countries via accounting manipulation. So, it would seem large multinationals, would finally lose their ability to move profits in order to avoid taxation, at least they wouldn't move them from the US, maybe they'd move the profits to the US for a change. Edited written off should be deducted as an expense I guess, that's why we have an accountant. I don't do that stuff.

OrionTheWolf -> RE: How fair do you want taxes? (8/9/2007 6:54:41 PM)
If you thought of this, without reading the Fair Tax book, then you are on the right track. Buy the book, read it, verify the resources, weigh the information, then decide. You sound (read) alot more independent and individual of thought than many who claim to always do research or know everything. There are some downsides, there always will be. There will need to be some tweaking, there always will be. Some analyst sited in the book, say it could be the best thing to happen to our economy in 6 decades. Orion quote: ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou You know I was thinking about this tax a bit, and I'm not so sure it would be as advantageous to corporate tax reduction as first appears. Currently, corporations get to write everything off against their taxes, like fuel, dinners for soliciting clients, corporate trips, Motels, Car rentals, office supply expenses, everything pretty much. Now, I don't know but we do take advantage of that when we go somewhere for business, and eat out, motels etc... Sorta, you know taking more time than one really needs to, staying an extra day because it's getting written off, etc.... still it falls under the rules. But if all that kind of thing was not a write off. Well, you can be sure the corporations would be running those kind of things way more efficiently instead of using them as an executive perk machine. Which is what it is really. Company meeting in Las Vegas for example. Why in las Vegas, because company can give a nice trip and write it all off, that's why. So, you go to a couple hour company meeting then party time!!. It seems that kind of waste would stop or be treated for what it really is anyway, a vacation that is taxed. Anywho, that is a good thing in my book. I'm not sure how much the average corporation pays for write-offable stuff, or activities, but it seems it would be quite a lot. So, the taxes would increase on corporations in that regard. How much versus traditional taxes is unknown. But multinationals typically pay very little tax anyway, because they offshore the tax burden to favourable tax countries via accounting manipulation. So, it would seem large multinationals, would finally lose their ability to move profits in order to avoid taxation, at least they wouldn't move them from the US, maybe they'd move the profits to the US for a change.

Lordandmaster -> RE: How fair do you want taxes? (8/9/2007 7:56:20 PM)
That's exactly like FatDomDaddy telling me that the states are responsible for fixing bridges, not the federal government. It's just an ideologically laden way of saying that you don't have a solution to the problem. States aren't going to fix bridges because they can't afford it, and municipalities aren't going to lower property taxes because they can't afford it either. In effect, what you're saying is this: Let's just have crumbling bridges and escalating local taxes. It's someone else's responsibility, not mine. What a country! quote: ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf quote: 3. It's not Red vs. Blue. At least, that's not how I view politics. Politics to me is how do we make a better world. I couldn't care less whom I am supposed to "blame" for the fact that my property taxes (and those of most ordinary Americans) are too high. All I care about is who has an idea to improve the situation. And, guess what: Republicans don't. I thought you made a comment about the republicans that were supporting it, I must be mistaken. Regardless though, property tax is a local matter, not a federal one.

OrionTheWolf -> RE: How fair do you want taxes? (8/9/2007 8:37:55 PM)
Well LAM you can lay the responsibility off to the feds, beg them to take care of you, and let the nanny gov do everything. Or you can do like what we have done in our area, and have a study done on how property taxes are assessed compared to actual value, which include revenue capability. Damn we found out that commercial property was not be assessed as it should be. Rather than stick it to them, though both were a raise in their property taxes, they had two choices 1) Create a certain amount of green space, bicycle, and golf cart paths on their property and get a lower rate or not and pay a higher rate. ALL OF IT DONE AT THE LOCAL LEVEL WHERE THE MONEY AND GOVERNMENT RESPONSIBILITY SHOULD BE. Have a nice day, Orion quote: ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster That's exactly like FatDomDaddy telling me that the states are responsible for fixing bridges, not the federal government. It's just an ideologically laden way of saying that you don't have a solution to the problem. States aren't going to fix bridges because they can't afford it, and municipalities aren't going to lower property taxes because they can't afford it either. In effect, what you're saying is this: Let's just have crumbling bridges and escalating local taxes. It's someone else's responsibility, not mine. What a country! quote: ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf quote: 3. It's not Red vs. Blue. At least, that's not how I view politics. Politics to me is how do we make a better world. I couldn't care less whom I am supposed to "blame" for the fact that my property taxes (and those of most ordinary Americans) are too high. All I care about is who has an idea to improve the situation. And, guess what: Republicans don't. I thought you made a comment about the republicans that were supporting it, I must be mistaken. Regardless though, property tax is a local matter, not a federal one.

Lordandmaster -> RE: How fair do you want taxes? (8/9/2007 9:16:37 PM)
OK let me get this straight. "You" did a study in your area and found that commercial property was underassessed for tax purposes. (Why does that not surprise me...) And "your" solution was to allow them to build golf-cart paths on their property in exchange for a tax break? Without knowing what municipality you're talking about, I can't judge this, but I don't see how building golf-cart paths is a satisfactory alternative to paying your fair share of tax. In fact, it sounds like just the kind of sweetheart deal for corporations that contributes to ridiculous property taxes for ordinary citizens. (Want to talk about sweetheart deals for corporations? I'm armed to the teeth with info.) Anyway, what was your role in this whole project? I'd like to know how you're using the word "we." Because if you weren't personally involved, it's hypocritical of you to say that I'm just waiting for the feds to solve my problems while you're out there rolling up your sleeves and solving America's problems. quote: ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf Well LAM you can lay the responsibility off to the feds, beg them to take care of you, and let the nanny gov do everything. Or you can do like what we have done in our area, and have a study done on how property taxes are assessed compared to actual value, which include revenue capability. Damn we found out that commercial property was not be assessed as it should be. Rather than stick it to them, though both were a raise in their property taxes, they had two choices 1) Create a certain amount of green space, bicycle, and golf cart paths on their property and get a lower rate or not and pay a higher rate.

Archer -> RE: How fair do you want taxes? (8/9/2007 10:15:26 PM)
Build a park (that would have come out of local taxes otherwise) or pay the taxes directly. Hmmmm remove the middleman it can be a win win. So the company had to: A. buy the land, or convert what was private property to public use B. Improve the land to park space for the benifit of the community Could very well be a fair trade, could be a sweetheart deal odds are a little of both. Taxation is a closed loop system when services remain the same. Decrease them in one area they will increase in another. The fundamental question is which level of government is most answerable to you as an individual. Local government needs your individual vote more than the Federal candidates. They are thus more responsive to your needs and concerns. State level reps need maybe 1/10th the votes compared to a federal level representative. 1 vote hurts the local guy more.

Real0ne -> RE: How fair do you want taxes? (8/9/2007 11:08:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster My federal taxes can hardly go lower at this point. I hear congressmen and presidential candidates jabbering about some tax plan that would replace federal income taxes with a 23% sales tax, and that's not going to do jackshit for me. Taxes were originally done they way they were to prevent exactly what you are talking about. The divfference is that our forefathers rather than tax the piss out of everyone did not tax if it could not be done fairly. that line of thought has been dead and gone for over 100 years where sophic thinking replaced common sense.

Real0ne -> RE: How fair do you want taxes? (8/9/2007 11:10:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Durus The Fair Tax includes repeal of the 16th amendment. thats ass backwards. all they need to do is repeal the 16th FIRST then we can talk about taxes.

Real0ne -> RE: How fair do you want taxes? (8/9/2007 11:16:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Archer quote: ORIGINAL: GhitaAmati Question.....no I havent done much research into this other than listning to Neil Boortz...so forgive my ignorance... But, everthing Ive seen and read over this fair tax idea since this thread started...its only talking about federal tax....so does that mean if it passes, we will still be paying the state and local taxes too? I know all states dont do it, but some have a yearly income tax that works just about the same way the federal taxes do...plus the 7 or 8 percent on all sales.... Correct it has no effect at all on how the States or local governments collect their taxes. It only changes how the federal taxes are calculated and collected. States are not expected to do anything from this law except act as a collection agent. (ie they use the same system they already use for their sales taxes to collect and then put the new federal tax into an account to be transfered to the Federal Government) right and there is no use even talking about if they do not repeal the 16th first. what they will do is run the tax bill though and forget about repealing the 16th and the states then can still tax the shit out of us even more than we are now. at least now as it is we still have enough rights to fight them because they pulled a usurpation scam on us and we are zeroing in and they know it. this wonderful tax plan isnt jumping from the frying pan to the fire its jumping from the grill into the coals!

Real0ne -> RE: How fair do you want taxes? (8/9/2007 11:23:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster 2. What I am saying has nothing to do with the source document. That's the point. The source document may as well be referring to taxation on Neptune. It's irrelevant to me and most ordinary Americans. (Who WOULD benefit from this new plan? The mega-rich, who actually pay a lot in federal taxes--though a lot less than they used to. Surprise surprise.) that is precisely correct. it will erode the middle class even worse than it is now and stifle new business with no incentive for the lower income to do improvements because of higher taxation when they do. That and the states can still tax with impunity. Once they get that fed bill up go our taxes. great deal for the super elite bum deal for us.

Real0ne -> RE: How fair do you want taxes? (8/9/2007 11:34:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf As to corporations getting taxed, then the stockholders getting taxed, that is a double tax and should be illegal. Just like there should be no gift or inheritance tax. The government is being just like the Mafia when they do that. Microsoft is an enitity that other make money from, so take the money that is actually being paid to individuals. The exception would be money paid to corps outside the US, and those should pay a hefty tax for making money here. it was originally set up such that the corporations paid the bulk of the federal taxes. the reason why is because it is the feds responsibility to protect the our companies engaged in business overseas. Corporations have NO RIGHTS only priviledges and ALL this will do is further define a citizenas a corporation and eliminate the last miniscule of sovereignity and RIGHTS we have. This bill will essentially corporatize us by our own ignorance to the underlying issues at law. The real and only way to FIX it is to back track and simply undo what has been done. Its not a matter of getting what sounds good and everyone jump on the bandwagon, taxation is an extremely complicated process and there is a point to whjere make it simple will fuck over the greater majority. One analyst pointed out there is no way the feds can run on 25%, they will need to raise that to a minumum of 56% just to survive. Its all smoke and mirrors. Just add up how much taxes they collect now and tell me they will collect less? no fucking way, it is nothing more than a redistribution program that will kill small business and the middle class for good.

Real0ne -> RE: How fair do you want taxes? (8/9/2007 11:50:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Archer Build a park (that would have come out of local taxes otherwise) or pay the taxes directly. Hmmmm remove the middleman it can be a win win. So the company had to: A. buy the land, or convert what was private property to public use B. Improve the land to park space for the benifit of the community Could very well be a fair trade, could be a sweetheart deal odds are a little of both. Taxation is a closed loop system when services remain the same. Decrease them in one area they will increase in another. The fundamental question is which level of government is most answerable to you as an individual. Local government needs your individual vote more than the Federal candidates. They are thus more responsive to your needs and concerns. State level reps need maybe 1/10th the votes compared to a federal level representative. 1 vote hurts the local guy more. there is nothing in the bill that says corporations will lower prices. to think they will, well put it this way i have a nice bridge for you in florida. you still have not addressed any of the questions that i have asked you. exactly how does this help the small business man? If you dont want to address it i will. it will literally wipe out startup business, who the hell will want to take the risk without the ability to have write offs? not me. we all know how generous corporations are, after they always drop their prices when taxes are reduced. Last i checked they reduce prices as a result of supply and demand. jap car industry coming in to name one, jap machinery wiped out most american manufacturers because they could not compete. Small start up comapanies that put the big boys under because they had us by the balls. Think that will happen when we all pay 25%? This tax thing has gotten so far out of hand no one even knows how it can be. we have spawned and many people support the government leaches. What about licensing? another form of tax. permits? yet another form of tax. pay to file a FIOA another tax now we have to pay to see what our employees the fucking governmet are doing. i can go on and on as to all the ways they are taxing us behind the scenes. It is the corporatising of america and you are going to have to really come up with some good shit before you can sell me on it. So far its just another here's candy in my right hand take a bite so i can cut off your dick with my left hand operation as far as i can see, and not answering this and other questions i have put to you is not doing you any favors on the convincing team.

SugarMyChurro -> RE: How fair do you want taxes? (8/10/2007 12:09:56 AM)
The "read the book" answer is very dull. Supply us with a link to the source material or this thread is cooked. Utterly.

NeedToUseYou -> RE: How fair do you want taxes? (8/10/2007 12:21:45 AM)
Isn't the killer to the fair tax the fact that other countries would have lower prices on goods, compared to the US at the retail checkout. I see a situation where, lets say I live in Texas. I work in the US, were my income is not taxed at all, but rather taxed at the retail counter. So, I being a tax avoiding fool, LOL. Cross the border, on a massive shopping trip, and pick up all the non high taxed retail products in Mexico (seeing they tax income primarily and not at the counter), and crossing the border with my cheap goodies I bought on my non-taxed income. So I would effectively have avoided nearly all taxes except mexico's local sales taxes, which would be a pittance and wouldn't go to the US government.

Real0ne -> RE: How fair do you want taxes? (8/10/2007 12:37:06 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou Isn't the killer to the fair tax the fact that other countries would have lower prices on goods, compared to the US at the retail checkout. I see a situation where, lets say I live in Texas. I work in the US, were my income is not taxed at all, but rather taxed at the retail counter. So, I being a tax avoiding fool, LOL. Cross the border, on a massive shopping trip, and pick up all the non high taxed retail products in Mexico (seeing they tax income primarily and not at the counter), and crossing the border with my cheap goodies I bought on my non-taxed income. So I would effectively have avoided nearly all taxes except mexico's local sales taxes, which would be a pittance and wouldn't go to the US government. not if the NAU and national ID goes through! The problem is corporatising everyuthing and there will be no escape from it and we think we have a monster now LOL

SugarMyChurro -> RE: How fair do you want taxes? (8/10/2007 2:04:18 AM)
I will stick to what I said earlier in the thread, the second post in fact, that what we need is a federal sales tax and the elimination of the income tax as it applies to individuals. Corporations should stay on the hook for income taxes. There's no reason to change anyone's wages because whether that person is paying before or after the paycheck is immaterial to the employer. Corporations remain on the hook because there should be benefits and disadvantages to doing business as a corporation. Corporations are not "persons" in the normal sense of the word. I can't just cease to exist without actually dying and leave all my creditors holding the bag through bankruptcy - but corporations basically can. I really wish people would stop confusing corporations with natural born persons as if we all had the same benefits and liabilities - we don't. As a matter of fact, laws were only recently enacted making it a good deal harder for individuals to get the protection of bankruptcy - so everyone that wants to confuse natural with corporate persons can STFU now... Anyway... Since I can't find the Fair Tax Book online, I assume as of the moment that we are expected to pay the price of some bullshit book. Of course, you could read the proposed laws here instead (House and Senate bills, respectively): http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c110:H.R.25.IH: http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c110:S.1025: If you prefer someone else explain it to you try these links: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FairTax http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predicted_effects_of_the_FairTax I'll skip right to the harsh criticisms with these two links: "The Fair Tax Fraud" http://www.mises.org/story/1814 "There is No Such Thing as a Fair Tax" http://www.mises.org/story/1975 It is disconcerting that we would simply be trusting the federal government to do away with the income tax on individuals after the enactment of the "fair tax." It should be understood that such a move would require a Constitutional Amendment - which is interesting because I am one of those that believes that the 16th Amendment was not properly ratified to begin with, now we expect the fed to do the right thing in the second case and eliminate it? I'll believe that when I see it. And finally, if you think that federal taxation has basically become a kind of theft and a power grab amounting to the usurpation of what should be local state governance instead then keep in mind that the Fair tax does nothing to reign in government spending. 23% could easily be 30% immediately if not sooner. And it could rise again if need be. No one has any oversight on this because we do not properly control our own government. That's the simple fact: we don't control the fed nor any of our state governments and we are arguing about how to pay this multiplicity of political leviathans, all of them with their hand out to accomplish the same tasks.

NeedToUseYou -> RE: How fair do you want taxes? (8/10/2007 2:24:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne quote: ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou Isn't the killer to the fair tax the fact that other countries would have lower prices on goods, compared to the US at the retail checkout. I see a situation where, lets say I live in Texas. I work in the US, were my income is not taxed at all, but rather taxed at the retail counter. So, I being a tax avoiding fool, LOL. Cross the border, on a massive shopping trip, and pick up all the non high taxed retail products in Mexico (seeing they tax income primarily and not at the counter), and crossing the border with my cheap goodies I bought on my non-taxed income. So I would effectively have avoided nearly all taxes except mexico's local sales taxes, which would be a pittance and wouldn't go to the US government. not if the NAU and national ID goes through! The problem is corporatising everyuthing and there will be no escape from it and we think we have a monster now LOL Your right, but for the sake of discussion, I'm confining my thoughts to fair tax, and the assumption that all is equal to the present situation and the premise that the government isn't working against us. LOL. A stretch to be sure, but discussing the whole of everything related to one piece makes for a mess. Off topic: if you believe the North American Union is emminent, you probably should dump all your money in pesos, as almost assuredly, the peso will get the best end of the exchange rate to Ameros(spelling). And more than likely they would want to severely scare the public by dramaticly damaging the us economy, and use the union as the solution to the problem. (You could argue this is already beginning). Seeing that Mexico would be the only one of the three that would need pulled up to the US, and Canadian standards( or the only one that didn't need pulled down, depending on your view), it's a no brainer, that it would surge on the announcement moreso than the others. If you can't beat them at least you can profit by being aware. LOL. That is exactly what I will do once/if they start really pushing and talking of it in a public manner. It's to soon unless you are really convinced, then you would probably be avoiding a stock market crash or something they'd use to convince the public we need a union to save the economy!!!. LOL. I'm aware of the NAU but I still can't comprehend people actually falling for it. But I can't comprehend what prompts people to believe/support many things that seem obviously detrimental. So, it would not suprise me.

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