RE: How fair do you want taxes? (Full Version)

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Real0ne -> RE: How fair do you want taxes? (8/10/2007 11:15:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

As if there is not enough Off shoring you want to speed it up by shifting all the taxes to the folks already leaving the country as it is.
Shift the entire burden to those folks again and you'll see a mass exodus of corporations and their jobs that makes the current trend look like a trickle.






how do you figure that? 

we have already seen a mass offshore and they only go offshore to the extent we are armed and dangerous.


are you saying that small startups wont jump in to fill the gap?

as far as i am concerned good fucking riddance!  let the little guys build businesses.  like good by dont let the door hit ya in the ass and when china wants to mow ya under dont call us we will call you tax evading mutha fuckas

then you hit them with import taxes :)

then its good bye corporate fascist muthas!  there see i solved the whole countries problems in one sentence!  LOLOL


anyway that is how the original tax structure was set up to work.  being in a corporation "is" a priviledge.  thats nothing i cranked out that is direct from our framers btw.

i would rather see 100 small guy operations with a couple employees than 1 fucking wally world any day of the week.

i give the little corner ace hardware franchises as much biz as i can and fuck those huge corp muthas.






OrionTheWolf -> RE: How fair do you want taxes? (8/11/2007 6:50:41 AM)

Realone do you understand the layers of business, and the business types, an economy needs to be self sufficient, or close to it? So many people rant about big business, but do not realize we may not have alot or some of the things we use, that makes or life easier, without big business. Big business is not evil, but a powerful capitalism machine, unchecked can be. It is in finding that balance that is the key, not in eliminating one side or the other.

Orion



Real0ne -> RE: How fair do you want taxes? (8/11/2007 10:39:46 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Realone do you understand the layers of business, and the business types, an economy needs to be self sufficient, or close to it? So many people rant about big business, but do not realize we may not have alot or some of the things we use, that makes or life easier, without big business. Big business is not evil, but a powerful capitalism machine, unchecked can be. It is in finding that balance that is the key, not in eliminating one side or the other.

Orion


agreed and that works both ways.  my point of course being that this wonderful bill will eliminate the small guys and prevent new small guys from starting up.

Like it or not being a corporation is a priviledge, being an individual is a right.

Most of the really huge corporations today are not just corporations they are conglomerates look at ge, what do they NOT do?    Large groups of people forming a corporation have the power of greater capital and larger volume that ma and pa shops who are in business just to make a living do not.

So this bill will wipe out the small guy are you saying that is good for our economy, or for our nation?   "Land of NO OPPORTUNITY"?   

This bill is garbage if for no other reason that it cuts out a huge segment of people from ever advancing beyond burger flipping.

Big biz wont run far not to worry (they still need customers and we have 296,000,000 of em an they aint gonna walk away from that no matter what we do with taxes)





Durus -> RE: How fair do you want taxes? (8/11/2007 12:20:02 PM)

How would it stop the little guy? No one but a complete idiot starts a business without incorporating and that will cost you all of $100.

Businesses are leaving now due to tax laws...not just big multinational conglomerate mega-corporations either. A local company, incorporated of course, but privately owned, just moved most of their business to Ireland. They didn't go there for the rain and fog either. Ireland in the last ten years have had a boom just for the simple reason that they basically got rid of corporate taxes.

All of the "evil corporations" you irrationally hate can move offshore and import their good. You think that is going to be good for us? We are already in a precarious position for that very reason. Getting rid of corporate taxes would bring all of those companies back.

While I don't think capitilism,  ie: the free market, is inherently evil, I am concerned with the way they manipulate government. That is far easier to fix then driving them away with a punitive tax structure. Simply make it illegal for corporations to give any money or gifts to PACs, candidates, or any political group. They influence with money...make that impossible and you take away their influence.



Real0ne -> RE: How fair do you want taxes? (8/11/2007 4:34:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Durus
How would it stop the little guy?

I explained that a few posts ago

quote:

ORIGINAL: Durus
No one but a complete idiot starts a business without incorporating and that will cost you all of $100.

Really?  Why?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Durus
Businesses are leaving now due to tax laws...not just big multinational conglomerate mega-corporations either. A local company, incorporated of course, but privately owned, just moved most of their business to Ireland. They didn't go there for the rain and fog either. Ireland in the last ten years have had a boom just for the simple reason that they basically got rid of corporate taxes.

They are leaving mostly due to labor costs, few leave for tax purposes until now that our deficit is so high, now they have an excellent reason to leave for tax reasons, after all we had to keep the carlyle group and haliburton in business till the next war and someone has to pay for it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Durus
All of the "evil corporations" you irrationally hate can move offshore and import their good. You think that is going to be good for us? We are already in a precarious position for that very reason. Getting rid of corporate taxes would bring all of those companies back.

Let them and charge them import taxes simple, or they do not need the us market they can sell to ireland.

What you think this country will roll over and die because a few corps moved out?  

If you are so unhappy about that you should have preventd nafta and host of other wonderful treaties that opened up that can of worms.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Durus
While I don't think capitilism,  ie: the free market, is inherently evil, I am concerned with the way they manipulate government. That is far easier to fix then driving them away with a punitive tax structure. Simply make it illegal for corporations to give any money or gifts to PACs, candidates, or any political group. They influence with money...make that impossible and you take away their influence.


This is not a "free" market it is entirely and completely manipulated.

There should be a set amount of money for any person who wants to run for office for every stage of the election process, an up to and no more credit card all donated money goes into a pot for all.







OrionTheWolf -> RE: How fair do you want taxes? (8/11/2007 9:45:05 PM)

Since I am a Business Consultant, and small Business owner, I can truly say realone that you are wrong. Do you know where alot of the expense for small manufacturing is? I mean direct costs that are not controlled by the open market? Nevermind, it won't do any good I believe. We agree to disagree. Enjoy your sunday.

Orion



Real0ne -> RE: How fair do you want taxes? (8/12/2007 12:47:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Since I am a Business Consultant, and small Business owner, I can truly say realone that you are wrong. Do you know where alot of the expense for small manufacturing is? I mean direct costs that are not controlled by the open market? Nevermind, it won't do any good I believe. We agree to disagree. Enjoy your sunday.

Orion



If you got a case make it.  If you are a consultant then you know that maunfacturing costs depends on how and what is being manufactured (among other things), as to where the majority of the cost is.  There is no "one specific area" that will always be the major cost across the board that i am aware of.   What you said above is really quite meaningless without elaboration. 
How do I know if i will agree or disagree till i hear your point?

yah right!  Thanks you too, but i have an emergency job that i promised a customer i would have completed for monday LOL






Real0ne -> RE: How fair do you want taxes? (8/12/2007 7:49:27 AM)

Why ditch the federal reserve as ron paul wants to do?

JEFFERSON ON THE CONSTITUTIONALITY OF THE BANK
February 15, 1791

(The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, ed. by H. E. Bergh, Vol. III, p. 145 ff.)

The bill for establishing a national bank, in 1791, undertakes, among other things,--

1. To form the subscribers into a corporation.

2. To enable them, in their corporate capacities, to receive grants of lands; and, so far, is against the laws of mortmain.

3. To make alien subscribers capable of holding lands; and so far is against the laws of alienage.

4. To transmit these lands, on the death of a proprietor, to a certain line of successors; and so far, changes the course of descents.

5. To put the lands out of the reach of forfeiture, or escheat; and so far, is against the laws of forfeiture and escheat.

6. To transmit personal chattels to successors, in a certain line; and so far, is against the laws of distribution.

7. To give them the sole and exclusive right of banking, under the national authority; and, so far, is against the laws of monopoly.

8. To communicate to them a power to make laws, paramount to the laws of the states; for so they must be construed, to protect the institution from the control of the state legislatures; and so probably they will be construed.

I consider the foundation of the Constitution as laid on this ground--that all powers not delegated to the United States, by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states, or to the people (12th amend.). To take a single step beyond the boundaries thus specially drawn around the powers of Congress, is to take possession of a boundless field of power, no longer susceptible of any definition.

The incorporation of a bank, and the powers assumed by this bill, have not, in my opinion, been delegated to the United States by the Constitution.




we cannot solve our tax problems without getting rid of the unlawfull feds, to think anything will change with this bill in favor of we the people goes against reason of the founders imo.


(but i am still waiting to hear about those costs from OTW because i cannot help but wonder what i have missed all these years :)  )






Real0ne -> RE: How fair do you want taxes? (8/12/2007 10:47:01 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Since I am a Business Consultant, and small Business owner, I can truly say realone that you are wrong. Do you know where alot of the expense for small manufacturing is? I mean direct costs that are not controlled by the open market? Nevermind, it won't do any good I believe. We agree to disagree. Enjoy your sunday.

Orion



The wealthy pay less.

Everyday laborers spend the "bulk their money" on things, things needed for survival toys for the kids, food, home mortage, car mortgage etc. (necessities)

The wealthy spend the bulk of their money on real estate, pay for the car(s) in cash, no need to get a mortgage unless its because they can make more from taking out the loan than they pay in interest with stock invesments, companies etc etc. (toys)

The wealthy man buys and the poor man rents.  The wealthy have capital to sell after 20 years and the poor man has nadda!

The wealthy with much greater amount of money only "consume" so much per person as far as daily needs are concerned and do not consume any more than the poor person except through waste and recreation maybe, and the recreation is a corporation too. (assuming the poor person can afford adequate food etc)  The toys the wealthy consume will always be the least taxed to maximize profits.


Social security.
There is no way to properly adjust social security with out some kind of accouting!  So how do you all as laborers plan to get your money out of SS and not fill out some kind of income statement or slide your national id with that information on it into an irs scanner to determine the amount of SS you are entitled to?  sure get rid of the irs never happen in fact just the opposite will happen and you will have the irs in your back pocket.


Consumption tax
How can consumption tax work unless part of that consumption is necesities to live on?   If most in america decide not to buy items they do not need because they are not required to survive what happens to the economy and what will the gov need to do to get the economy rolling again?  What happens if america goes on strike what will the government do?  Punish us!   RAISE TAXES ON NECESITIES!!!!    and who pays that tax by a greater percentage?  The wealthy?

Now if we taxed the wealthy based on the "ratio of excess over and above necesities" are concerned as a luxury tax, now i am all ears.    Which is what it should be with graduated increase such that the whole society strives to become "upper middle class to rich catagory" and those who want more can move to a country that allows monopolies.  Which means that mark can be placesd just above the upper middle class point.

Repealing the 16th
That does nothing in todays age to save us from taxation.  It only declares apportionment versus unapportionment.

In a computerized world that we are now apportionment is really quite simple at the state level.

So simply repealing the 16th without regard to the "context" in which the constitution was written is no savior from the beast what so ever and at most will slow the transfer of money to the feds, for the moment.  If i know it so do they know that too.

In fact that is the only reason they are willing to repeal it in the first place as they know they can keep those hooks in us with a bit of more infrastructure.


Convenience
Isnt it convenient that this bill shows up on the scene right when all the baby boomers are going to need social security and medicare.

HR 25 is the "foot in the door" for many "hidden" evils, such as the reduction of social security and medicare as the national debt increases where will they get the money from?    Services, social security and medicare.  Both need to be a one way street if we wish to retain them, from government to our own accounts and never back except to loan it to the government in place of the federal reserve loans where we can collect interest on it.

Imunity and plausible deniability.
Without the ability to prosecute those who make really piss poor decisions for this country we the people have to super educate ourselves in self defense.   This bill although it sounds good on the outside at first glance has many, to many, gaping holes where we will literally screw ourselves and beg for more.  Once its passed try and repeal it.  never happen.

Definitions;
There are so many unaddressed areas that will in the future be addressed by people who are getting screwed and further defined as we go in the courts that should this bill ever pass 20 years up the road it will not even look the same and it will in the end be another win for the bankers and wealthy elite.  

Policability
Another selling point of the bill is gift taxes which is hilarious, give us everything they literally (in most cases) cannot police anyway!  What a deal!  LOL


No irs!
How nice.  How will we know the level of poor, middle class, wealthy in this country without an irs or someone doing the accounting?  There will be accounting somehow and this no irs crap is so flawed it amazes me.  maybe they will give it a different name like homeland accounting r us.   Yup we send out the bills and money comes in that all we care about.  NOT that is total garbage.  Some form of accounting will stay with us, it will just be removed from our hands and placed into the hands of the corporations who got us into this mess in the first place.

i can go on and on and on with all the pit falls of this and i have not even touched on how it can and will be abused by our sell this give you that government.


Hey there really are ways to accomplish everything we desire here but you will not find it in this bill.  The key is to understand what the founders foresaw and realize the pitfalls before plowing full speed ahead because without that knowledge we are no longer cutting a new path as our constitution did but only walking down old failed paths.  Remember the constitution is "where no man hath gone before" and i think we should stick with its proven success in starting this nation and with that take this nation into the next millineum.


Anyway archer you are looking a bill in its infancy which is nothing more than an outline that really does not gaurantee anything but that the method of taxation will in fact have a different face.  There may be momentary savings and in the long run without a minimum of a constitutional change, 16th included,  (with full legal disclosure), we have for 10 years up the road improved nothing and have actually put ourselves in a worse situation if for no other reason because we "chose" it.

For you orion, i have stated my business scenario in black and white, i do not see you, who wish to impress that you are in an advanced position and therefore claiming to be at least somewhat of an expert in business and taxation as a consultant, i do not see you tearing my scenario down which is how its done to make a "valid" point.

The answer to your claim by the way is "yes" i do in fact know where a lot of the business costs are in manufacturing since not only did i do manufacturing engineering in the corporate world i also do it in my own private business for the last 20+ years.

you failed to mention specifically which type of manufacturing, an oversight maybe?  So i cannot make specific cost assessments without a knowing what kind of business we are talking abaout in the first place.

That and to approach me with cost of a few hundred bucks in taxes versus thousands to 100's of thousands of bucks worth of write offs is not going ot fly.

If you want to come out here and just make a blanket statement that i am wrong without making a case as to why i am wrong line item by line item then cutting it off I htink it is safe to assume that you have no viable or reasonably arguable case.

So if you have a case make it otherwise i am really sorry if i pissed in your cheerios on this because after all we are talking about this country in the balance and i want what is right for the country as whole not a couple of people not a 1/2 way plan doomed to fail or do the opposite of what we think it will like so much of the legislation done today.
















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