RE: How fair do you want taxes?

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Real0ne -> RE: How fair do you want taxes? (8/10/2007 3:34:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne quote: ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou Isn't the killer to the fair tax the fact that other countries would have lower prices on goods, compared to the US at the retail checkout. I see a situation where, lets say I live in Texas. I work in the US, were my income is not taxed at all, but rather taxed at the retail counter. So, I being a tax avoiding fool, LOL. Cross the border, on a massive shopping trip, and pick up all the non high taxed retail products in Mexico (seeing they tax income primarily and not at the counter), and crossing the border with my cheap goodies I bought on my non-taxed income. So I would effectively have avoided nearly all taxes except mexico's local sales taxes, which would be a pittance and wouldn't go to the US government. not if the NAU and national ID goes through! The problem is corporatising everyuthing and there will be no escape from it and we think we have a monster now LOL Your right, but for the sake of discussion, I'm confining my thoughts to fair tax, and the assumption that all is equal to the present situation and the premise that the government isn't working against us. LOL. A stretch to be sure, but discussing the whole of everything related to one piece makes for a mess. Off topic: if you believe the North American Union is emminent, you probably should dump all your money in pesos, as almost assuredly, the peso will get the best end of the exchange rate to Ameros(spelling). And more than likely they would want to severely scare the public by dramaticly damaging the us economy, and use the union as the solution to the problem. (You could argue this is already beginning). Seeing that Mexico would be the only one of the three that would need pulled up to the US, and Canadian standards( or the only one that didn't need pulled down, depending on your view), it's a no brainer, that it would surge on the announcement moreso than the others. If you can't beat them at least you can profit by being aware. LOL. That is exactly what I will do once/if they start really pushing and talking of it in a public manner. It's to soon unless you are really convinced, then you would probably be avoiding a stock market crash or something they'd use to convince the public we need a union to save the economy!!!. LOL. I'm aware of the NAU but I still can't comprehend people actually falling for it. But I can't comprehend what prompts people to believe/support many things that seem obviously detrimental. So, it would not suprise me. well what i find so disturbing is how deceiving this whole thing is. If one takes it at face value it sounds great and gives the impression that wow only 25% kool as if to say that 25% is cast in conrete and that is "ALL" they will have to pay in total taxation when in reality there are lots of other taxes state and otherwise that come into play. Now we will have a governemtn that is taxing us for not only our existance but theirs as well. The real problem is that they have a blank check and we do nothing about it, and as i have said before, ditching the federal reserve, and start going backwards and undoing what they have done in the irs code is the real cure as well as repealing the 16th. the framers understood taxation way better than anyone does today. after many of them died as a result of unfair taxation and how many of us can say the same? this is typical government with candy in one hand and shit in the other. show you candy then give you scat and convince you its candy. (and many people really will believe its candy!)

SugarMyChurro -> RE: How fair do you want taxes? (8/10/2007 4:11:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne ...show you candy then give you scat and convince you its candy. Dude! I think you crossed the "Your kink Is Not My Kink" line there...

OrionTheWolf -> RE: How fair do you want taxes? (8/10/2007 5:00:47 AM)
The area in question is a part of South Metro Atlanta, Georgia. We, started a petition, and then part of the group went to the commision meetings. The Golf Cart paths run through neighborhoods, and then link to the city area. This way people use electric powered Golf Carts to go shopping, or into town for whatever reason. Cuts down on traffic and reduces pollution, not to mention less refined oil used. The Green areas help with scenery and more importantly, oxygen producing trees and such. The area is more attractive to move into, thus property values assessed and sale values raised. I am not solving America's problems, I am taking a more active role at the local level, I write my politicians, local, state and fed. I attaned city and county council/commision meetings and say my peace, or present petitions. I am part of the fairtax volunteers, post about it on various groups and direct people to the website and answer as many questions as I can. In this thread though, Archer did a great job of presenting the facts, he has read the book and sounds like he did the research. It is great to offer an opinion, after reading the source material, doing the research, verifying the sources, and then having a debate, will allow more ideas to flow that can improve it. You can get involved in many ways. I forgot to mention the shoft in the percentage of property taxes collected that go to the schools system and education here, that resulted from the findings of where our tax dollars went. I am not relocated into an adjoining county, and discussing with other home owners in the area about the idea. You have to build a base of citizens willing to put pressure on the politicians to promote change. There are many ways you can get involved, to help change things, if you really want to. I have a books somewhere that lists how to make change at your local levels, with alot of great ideas. Cmail me if you want the name and author, and I will dig around in the boxes in my basement and find it for you. Orion quote: ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster OK let me get this straight. "You" did a study in your area and found that commercial property was underassessed for tax purposes. (Why does that not surprise me...) And "your" solution was to allow them to build golf-cart paths on their property in exchange for a tax break? Without knowing what municipality you're talking about, I can't judge this, but I don't see how building golf-cart paths is a satisfactory alternative to paying your fair share of tax. In fact, it sounds like just the kind of sweetheart deal for corporations that contributes to ridiculous property taxes for ordinary citizens. (Want to talk about sweetheart deals for corporations? I'm armed to the teeth with info.) Anyway, what was your role in this whole project? I'd like to know how you're using the word "we." Because if you weren't personally involved, it's hypocritical of you to say that I'm just waiting for the feds to solve my problems while you're out there rolling up your sleeves and solving America's problems. quote: ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf Well LAM you can lay the responsibility off to the feds, beg them to take care of you, and let the nanny gov do everything. Or you can do like what we have done in our area, and have a study done on how property taxes are assessed compared to actual value, which include revenue capability. Damn we found out that commercial property was not be assessed as it should be. Rather than stick it to them, though both were a raise in their property taxes, they had two choices 1) Create a certain amount of green space, bicycle, and golf cart paths on their property and get a lower rate or not and pay a higher rate.

Archer -> RE: How fair do you want taxes? (8/10/2007 5:22:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro The "read the book" answer is very dull. Supply us with a link to the source material or this thread is cooked. Utterly. Page 1 Post #10 has the thomas Register link to HR25 I put it there days ago, you're a tad bit late to be busting on anyone for not posting a source document.

Archer -> RE: How fair do you want taxes? (8/10/2007 5:43:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne quote: ORIGINAL: Durus The Fair Tax includes repeal of the 16th amendment. thats ass backwards. all they need to do is repeal the 16th FIRST then we can talk about taxes. As stated already 2 or 3 times it repeals those parts that neuter the 16th links provided and text copied and pasted to this thread. You think it's impossible for them to get this through and then propose something 3 or 4 times more difficult as if it were simple. "right and there is no use even talking about if they do not repeal the 16th first. what they will do is run the tax bill though and forget about repealing the 16th and the states then can still tax the shit out of us even more than we are now. " The bill doesn't change the State's powers to tax internally because it can't a little thing called the 10th ammendment and the Constitution make it impossible for them to do that. Posted the effective tax rates that show your assertation that it's designed to tax the middle class more was false already. And Provided facts and fgures to back up the data I gave something you have failed to do at every pont in the post. The 23% vs 56% analysis I've seen a couple of those attemts to show that and in each case you have to pay close attention to the differences between inclussive and exclussive tax rates. All of the ones that showthe higher rate that I have read have compared exclussive income tax to inclussive consumption tax and that's just flawed. Make sure comparisons being made are either calculated to compar inclussive to inclussive or explussive to exclussive. "you still have not addressed any of the questions that i have asked you. exactly how does this help the small business man?" Bullshit see post 39 page 2 Want to disagree wih my evaluation that's fine but don't lie and say I didn't answer your question. "How will this effect the small business man just starting out and what incentive is there to go into business? The paperwork of dealing with the what 6,000 pages of tax code vs 132 pages, make compliance easier and thus is something that opens the doors to start up businesses. Since it is not based on income but consumption it's simple to plan taxation into the business plan. Want to get a new widget machine plan the purchase knowing the tax consequences of the purchase. Far better than having to hire an accountant to tell you when to make the purchase as is all but required now. But it is not by design made to be an incentive to small business However income tax complications of the curent system cause many failures to occure when the business owner simply doesn't know enough to be able without spending on accountants to be able to comply with the current tax code that even the IRS can't always agree on. " Now I'll agre it doesn't cover everything you may have wanted to know but don't act like I ignored the question.

SugarMyChurro -> RE: How fair do you want taxes? (8/10/2007 10:17:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Archer Page 1 Post #10 has the thomas Register link to HR25 I put it there days ago, you're a tad bit late to be busting on anyone for not posting a source document. Not at all, Orion keeps citing the "Fair Tax Book" as if most of us were going to run right out and waste whatever money and time we have to read about this obviously misguided tax that treats individuals and corporations exactly alike. That idiocy is one of my long-standing objections to Libertarian politics - the complete misunderstanding of fundamental legal principles like the difference between juristic and natural persons.

SugarMyChurro -> RE: How fair do you want taxes? (8/10/2007 10:27:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Archer As stated already 2 or 3 times it repeals those parts that neuter the 16th links provided and text copied and pasted to this thread. I think you discuss this issue dishonestly. Here's a quote from one of my previous sources: ----- http://www.mises.org/story/1975 Problem #13: The FairTax does not repeal the Sixteenth Amendment. When FairTax advocates discuss their plan, they talk as though the FairTax would result in the repeal of the Sixteenth Amendment that gave us the income tax. To his credit, Boortz doesn't make that mistake, but when many people read about "saying goodbye to the income tax," that is what they think. The FairTax bill now pending in Congress ( H.R. 25 in the House and the identical S. 25 in the Senate), repeals Subtitle A of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 that relates to income taxes and self-employment taxes and Subtitle C that relates to payroll taxes and the withholding of income taxes. The only mention of the Sixteenth Amendment in H.R. 25 is when it reports: "Congress further finds that the 16th amendment to the United States Constitution should be repealed." But to repeal Sixteenth Amendment would require a constitutional amendment. Are we to believe that Congress would vote to repeal the Sixteenth Amendment after the passage of the FairTax? And even if Congress did so it would still have to be sent to the states for approval by three-fourths of them. So, barring the repeal of the Sixteenth Amendment, what is there to prevent an income tax from being imposed again after a national sales tax has been enacted? And what is to prevent any of the other taxes replaced by the FairTax being re-imposed due to some unanticipated budget shortfall or "crisis"? Is Boortz that naïve to think that Congress will be satisfied with just the FairTax? And even if the Sixteenth Amendment was repealed after the imposition of the FairTax, any previous tax not on income could be brought back. Can Congress be trusted to do anything else? I can easily envision Congress proposing to lower the rate of the national sales tax in exchange for the addition of a supplemental Social Security tax because we need more money to fund Social Security. Then, a few years later, the national sales tax rate would be right back up to where it was before the "exchange." ----- The real kicker is that standing case law says that the 16th amendment provides no new taxing power, it just removes an existing requirement to apportion those taxes as required in the main body of the Constitution. In other words, the Fed has had and will continue to have the power to tax income - forever! The repeal of the 16th Amendment would only effect the rule of apportionment. Ultimately, this means that changing our tax system is going to require a Constitutional Amendment as that's the only way to close the door to further taxation against individuals. Such an Amendment would not only have to have the effect of repealing the 16th Amendment, it will also have to destroy the Federal power to tax income altogether. Anything less and income taxation will remain the wolf at the door.

Archer -> RE: How fair do you want taxes? (8/10/2007 12:40:23 PM)
SugarMyChurro Not dishonestly at all I posted the text of the bill and exactly what it is supposed to repeal by section Copied and pasted directly from Thomas Register's copy of HR25. Page 1 post 6. That said I agree it leave open the possibility of reinstating it with only the need for an Act of Congress. The danger of having both exists, not saying it doesn't at all. However the goal of the people behind the Fair Tax is that after passage start the work of negating the 16th ammendment as a whole. Failure to follow through would eventually be a disaster. Would be the equivolent of having a VAT added to our current system, which is also prevented by absolutly nothing more than an Act of Congress. Congresman Linder is working a sunset provission into the next itteration of the bill to prevent both from remaining in place (If Fair Tax passes then it dies unless the 16th is repealed within 5 years. The possibility of having the bot Income and VAT is a real concern I can see someone having a problem with. The sunset provission should help.

SugarMyChurro -> RE: How fair do you want taxes? (8/10/2007 12:52:49 PM)
Archer: The 16th is still a smaller issue - an amendment must be passed that abolishes any other form of taxation against individuals. The 16th only effects apportionment. I don't know how I can be clearer. it seems to me that people always miss the fundamental issues at stake. Anyway, this "fair tax" is still a total failure in my view - it misses the main marks and is therefore doomed. It has so many oddities that I am sure it's main purpose is to enrich the top 1% of wealthy americans.

Archer -> RE: How fair do you want taxes? (8/10/2007 1:45:15 PM)
Didn't travel far enough down my line of thinking I guess. The steps that are proposed by Linder and the main group supporting the Fair Tax (kinda like the ultimate goal of HCI was banning private gun ownership) includes the repeal and a subsequent ban on income taxes. So if we take a page from the inchworm book it's a matter of making one step at a time. As to ulteriour motivations behind the design of the Fair Tax I doubt it. The original proposal was not created in DC by politicians but rather bankrolled by 3 or so private citizens who commissioned the study to find the fairest taxation method they could. Politicians have adopted the plan but they didn't create it. Had it been created in DC I would have had less doubt that it was designed that way.

Real0ne -> RE: How fair do you want taxes? (8/10/2007 2:52:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Archer Didn't travel far enough down my line of thinking I guess. The steps that are proposed by Linder and the main group supporting the Fair Tax (kinda like the ultimate goal of HCI was banning private gun ownership) includes the repeal and a subsequent ban on income taxes. So if we take a page from the inchworm book it's a matter of making one step at a time. As to ulteriour motivations behind the design of the Fair Tax I doubt it. The original proposal was not created in DC by politicians but rather bankrolled by 3 or so private citizens who commissioned the study to find the fairest taxation method they could. Politicians have adopted the plan but they didn't create it. Had it been created in DC I would have had less doubt that it was designed that way. You have no idea what connections the people who wrote this tax bill have. i dont see ron pauls name on it any where and neither do i see ron paul endorsing it. From what i know of ron paul if there is anyone person in government who is the taxpayers friend it is he, yet he is no where to be found on this. you are making a lot of assumptions that fly in the face of past government real life actions and in the end are with out basis. quote: ORIGINAL: Archer How will this effect the small business man just starting out and what incentive is there to go into business? The paperwork of dealing with the what 6,000 pages of tax code vs 132 pages, make compliance easier and thus is something that opens the doors to start up businesses. Since it is not based on income but consumption it's simple to plan taxation into the business plan. Want to get a new widget machine plan the purchase knowing the tax consequences of the purchase. Far better than having to hire an accountant to tell you when to make the purchase as is all but required now. But it is not by design made to be an incentive to small business However income tax complications of the curent system cause many failures to occure when the business owner simply doesn't know enough to be able without spending on accountants to be able to comply with the current tax code that even the IRS can't always agree on. How does this give incentive to improve a home for instance? i would let th rot so i did not have to pay the tax or make minimal repairs instead of "improve" No incentve other than the improvement of your home, it's not well suited to Governmental preasure to do what is "Best for you" acording to the government. The government will lose alot of the social engineering ability it pushes through by tax policy. small biz will lose all write offs, does not sound to incentivating to me. Write offs don't exactly matter when you don't tax income but rather you tax consumption. how does the small biz fit into this scheme ok my apo-apo-apologies i did not see this. So we have coporations with no more incentive to lower prices than they have now and the small biz man who would normal compete with corps when they get out of line with pricing with no incentive to take the "risk" of going into business. First off other than people like myself who do their own personal and buz taxes most just hand it to their accountant and their accountant advises them on the does and donts, that and to file a standard long form is no where near 1000 pages and that is if the average biz guy researches literally everythi8ng applicable to his biz. In fact i would wager well under 500 tops as an average. That and they have an 800 number and you can call them any time during biz hours. Write offs are often the difference between a small or startup biz having the ability to make or not. No one that i know in biz gives a rats ass about paperwork and would never exchange a bit of paperwork for write offs and will take writeoffs any day. Next your tax bill has no state control either so the state can still tax with impunity and from what you say it sounds like the state does not have to follow the constitution. The whole purpose original was to tax "corporate profits" and priviledged government workers, not corporate employees for their wages. this all got thrown together in an abortion in the early to mid 1900's and now no one knows the difference. The original constitutional tax system is the best layout i have seen yet basically a luxury or privilrdge tax and we should settle for no less because it gave the individual wether rich or poor incentive above everything else thus offering in the short and long run more wealth in the hands of more people than your system which turns this country into corporate robot slaves like your un-fair tax will do. remember this bill is only an outline and there are no details, details to be filled in later after the bill passes. Repeal the 16th and back track all out triple taxation etc and we will come as close as can be had to a fairest tax, best fit for this country, (as a republic) tax system. Now for a democracy, no then then run with the tax system you have and let the mob rule. Now from r1's study of the tax problem the "fairest tax" is: 1) repeal the 16th 2) get rid of the federal reserve corporation 3) back track and fix the tax system over the next 10 years. Taxes in this country were originally targeted for the truly priviledged and wealthy not the average american where your fair tax is nothing more than a "permission to live and work" fee. http://www.mises.org/story/1768

Real0ne -> RE: How fair do you want taxes? (8/10/2007 2:54:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne ...show you candy then give you scat and convince you its candy. Dude! I think you crossed the "Your kink Is Not My Kink" line there... errr the governments kink is not my kink line! LOL

Real0ne -> RE: How fair do you want taxes? (8/10/2007 4:45:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro waste whatever money and time we have to read about this obviously misguided tax that treats individuals and corporations exactly alike. That idiocy is one of my long-standing objections to Libertarian politics - the complete misunderstanding of fundamental legal principles like the difference between juristic and natural persons. yes! and therein is the real evil. corporations including the government (which is a corporation btw for those who are unaware), have NO RIGHTS. they stricly have PRIVILEDGES!!! By accepting this form of taxation you now forfeit ALL rights and ALL rights that you used to have now become priviledges! One of those fine print things in law.

Real0ne -> RE: How fair do you want taxes? (8/10/2007 5:35:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Archer Didn't travel far enough down my line of thinking I guess. The steps that are proposed by Linder and the main group supporting the Fair Tax (kinda like the ultimate goal of HCI was banning private gun ownership) includes the repeal and a subsequent ban on income taxes. So if we take a page from the inchworm book it's a matter of making one step at a time. As to ulteriour motivations behind the design of the Fair Tax I doubt it. The original proposal was not created in DC by politicians but rather bankrolled by 3 or so private citizens who commissioned the study to find the fairest taxation method they could. Politicians have adopted the plan but they didn't create it. Had it been created in DC I would have had less doubt that it was designed that way. i will give it one thing its simple enough in its bill stagee and in fact to simple and imo just one of those sounds great on paper deals. With the startups made so difficult or nearly impossible where does that leave your kids for starting their own thing> It will take substantially increased capital to even think about it and the risk now multiplies exponentially as a result. what about your kids? Do you want them to be burger flippers for the corporations or venture out and make a real living with a chance to become wealthy? We already have the wealthy setting up their kids in biz, what about the guy who just gets wages? That is my point I do not see that happening for low and lower midle income people in this plan among several other problems but i am starting there.

Lordandmaster -> RE: How fair do you want taxes? (8/10/2007 8:26:43 PM)
I have to admit, that's interesting. How do residents get access to the golf carts? quote: ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf The area in question is a part of South Metro Atlanta, Georgia. We, started a petition, and then part of the group went to the commision meetings. The Golf Cart paths run through neighborhoods, and then link to the city area. This way people use electric powered Golf Carts to go shopping, or into town for whatever reason. Cuts down on traffic and reduces pollution, not to mention less refined oil used.

OrionTheWolf -> RE: How fair do you want taxes? (8/10/2007 8:57:48 PM)
They purchase them. The city actually gives a certain amount off your property tax for each golf cart you own up to 2, and that combined with saving gas over two years, pays for it. Golfcart paths run through, beside and adjacent to subdivisions, roads, and all shopping areas. You could retire here and only ever have to drive your golf cart. There are parks, fishing, many grocery stores, clothing stores, restaurants, etc. Orion quote: ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster I have to admit, that's interesting. How do residents get access to the golf carts? quote: ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf The area in question is a part of South Metro Atlanta, Georgia. We, started a petition, and then part of the group went to the commision meetings. The Golf Cart paths run through neighborhoods, and then link to the city area. This way people use electric powered Golf Carts to go shopping, or into town for whatever reason. Cuts down on traffic and reduces pollution, not to mention less refined oil used.

OrionTheWolf -> RE: How fair do you want taxes? (8/10/2007 9:01:02 PM)
My bad. I was under the assumption of discussing things without party lines. Orion

Archer -> RE: How fair do you want taxes? (8/10/2007 10:02:39 PM)
First off other than people like myself who do their own personal and buz taxes most just hand it to their accountant and their accountant advises them on the does and donts, that and to file a standard long form is no where near 1000 pages and that is if the average biz guy researches literally everythi8ng applicable to his biz. In fact i would wager well under 500 tops as an average. That and they have an 800 number and you can call them any time during biz hours. OK maybe my clarity was lacking the 6,000 pages is the current tax code as it stands, even the IRS doesn't know all the various angles for it's own code, they tell you that you can't hold them to the answers they give you if you call them directly for answers. reducing the complicated countermanding at times, essoteric passages hidden in the 6,000 pages of the current tax code makes paying an accountant mandatory. (as you mentioned everyone basicly simply hands over their paperwork pays several hundred dollars and hopes they don't get audited) Get caught in an audit even if you are correct in everything you have done and it costs you alot of money. just to defend yourself. The Fair Tax eliminates the possibility that you will be audited on your personal taxes only your sales books would be audited (to ensure you have collected and forwarded the appropriate amount to match your sales figures, so simple non accountants can do it) The average guy can read 132 pages (the total length of the long form of the bill) the average guy can't read 6,000 pages that comprise the current tax code. Savings to the small business guy would be no accountants nessisary to figure your taxes, deductions and write offs become superflourious when your income is not what is taxed. Your business tax would be based on what your company buys, and your forwarding of taxes to the government would be based on the sales figures for the period. Read that twice and then tell me why the write offs would matter when the the income they are written off against is no longer the basis for the tax. The most complex thing you have to figure out is what qualifies as a purchase that goes into production or a purchase that goes into support. Production purchases of materials going into the product would be non taxed. Purchases of things not directly related to production would be taxed. How you prove production vs non production I have not yet gotten to understand, but it seams like it would not be too difficult. The problem with going back to the original tax system is simple. People will not accept the resulting reduction in government services that would result from reducing the revenue. I'm not in disagreement that the best goal would be exactly that starve the beast we have raised. However I have no faith in the populices' ability to wean itself off the current level of services. Hell they bitch when you reduce the planned increase from 4% to 3%. How you figure they are going to react to an actual reduction in services?

Real0ne -> RE: How fair do you want taxes? (8/10/2007 10:58:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Archer First off other than people like myself who do their own personal and buz taxes most just hand it to their accountant and their accountant advises them on the does and donts, that and to file a standard long form is no where near 1000 pages and that is if the average biz guy researches literally everythi8ng applicable to his biz. In fact i would wager well under 500 tops as an average. That and they have an 800 number and you can call them any time during biz hours. OK maybe my clarity was lacking the 6,000 pages is the current tax code as it stands, even the IRS doesn't know all the various angles for it's own code, they tell you that you can't hold them to the answers they give you if you call them directly for answers. reducing the complicated countermanding at times, essoteric passages hidden in the 6,000 pages of the current tax code makes paying an accountant mandatory. (as you mentioned everyone basicly simply hands over their paperwork pays several hundred dollars and hopes they don't get audited) Get caught in an audit even if you are correct in everything you have done and it costs you alot of money. just to defend yourself. The Fair Tax eliminates the possibility that you will be audited on your personal taxes only your sales books would be audited (to ensure you have collected and forwarded the appropriate amount to match your sales figures, so simple non accountants can do it) The average guy can read 132 pages (the total length of the long form of the bill) the average guy can't read 6,000 pages that comprise the current tax code. Savings to the small business guy would be no accountants nessisary to figure your taxes, deductions and write offs become superflourious when your income is not what is taxed. Your business tax would be based on what your company buys, and your forwarding of taxes to the government would be based on the sales figures for the period. Read that twice and then tell me why the write offs would matter when the the income they are written off against is no longer the basis for the tax. The most complex thing you have to figure out is what qualifies as a purchase that goes into production or a purchase that goes into support. Production purchases of materials going into the product would be non taxed. Purchases of things not directly related to production would be taxed. How you prove production vs non production I have not yet gotten to understand, but it seams like it would not be too difficult. The problem with going back to the original tax system is simple. People will not accept the resulting reduction in government services that would result from reducing the revenue. I'm not in disagreement that the best goal would be exactly that starve the beast we have raised. However I have no faith in the populices' ability to wean itself off the current level of services. Hell they bitch when you reduce the planned increase from 4% to 3%. How you figure they are going to react to an actual reduction in services? Come on now you just sound like a salesman. you just said that the irs does not even know all their code and went on to tell me that you would still need to have an accountant to file the sales tax etc. That leaves the 1040 EZ and i have seen people with an iq of 75 get them perfectly correct. So there is no benefit there to the small biz man. what having an accountant throw 10 - 15 additional numbers in a ez? 20 bucks tops? Depreciation for starters. Capital investments, Supplies, Equipment, Insurance, no write offs to offset the expenses "of doing business". Why take the risk may as well flip burgers! Personally i like a good complicated tax code because then you only pay taxes based on your smarts and the smarter you are the less or no taxes you pay :) The services should be removed from the federal tax system placed in the individuals accounts and turned over to the states that requires employers to put it directly into everyones account then they can do with the total what they do now and give them 2% on their money. Ditch the federal reserve and people can loan their own money to the government at thje same rate the gov now borrows from the federal reserve so the money comes right backl to the people and none of the fucking hiway robbers in congress can touch it, health can be done by the state in a 50 way joint fund or whatever works. Anything to get it out of the hands of the fed. so no service reduction, just fed reduction. well for your production vs non production thats the way it is now!!!!!! well you would not need to reduce services as i just said and frankly if those assholes would not have robbed the piggy bank for one and pay people who are to fucking lazy to work for 2, everyone would retire with a million bucks from social security.

Archer -> RE: How fair do you want taxes? (8/10/2007 11:05:13 PM)
As if there is not enough Off shoring you want to speed it up by shifting all the taxes to the folks already leaving the country as it is. Shift the entire burden to those folks again and you'll see a mass exodus of corporations and their jobs that makes the current trend look like a trickle.

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