RE: Submission & Married Men (Full Version)

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Grlwithboy -> RE: Submission & Married Men (8/15/2007 7:38:21 PM)

I just find the "I figured my shit out in X way and so should everyone else" attitude I see on this issue really kind of alarming.

I figured out my shit too, making mistakes and hurting myself and others in the process, and eventually figuring it out. Just as the majority of people who have had to figure out their sexuality in their adulthood have done.

I'm where I'm at now. Other people are where they are at now. I'm not any better. I operate with disclosure in my relationships, but I can fathom places, times, people, and circumstances where disclosure is harder, MUCH harder, possibly not beneficial to everyone involved, and maybe forthcoming but not at this time.

Everyone gets to make their own mistakes. I'm just glad there weren't many people around eager to hang me for mine.




cloudboy -> RE: Submission & Married Men (8/15/2007 8:35:20 PM)


One difference between you and others is that you're speaking from experience and you're married.

The most judgmental people about marrieds and marital behavior are the unmarried and the divorced.

My situation has kind of been like yours, backwards from marriage into poly making mistakes here and there always trying to strike a balance along the way.

My position is that the married person in the marriage is usually best positioned to understand what courses of action are best for everyone concerned.

I tend to be rather sympathetic towards marrieds, b/c I think marriage in the USA is a rather flawed institution.



Grlwithboy -> RE: Submission & Married Men (8/15/2007 8:46:03 PM)

quote:



I tend to be rather sympathetic towards marrieds, b/c I think marriage in the USA is a rather flawed institution.


Utterly. Most often a relationship contingent on who someone's NOT rather than who they are. No wonder people go outside.




NefertariReborn -> RE: Submission & Married Men (8/16/2007 1:40:29 AM)

Some are born great, some achieve greatness, others have greatness thrust upon them. I firmly believe that the either inherently dominant  or nothing argument is a fallacy.  History is littered with people who became leaders i.e. dominant because the situation they were in "forced" them to be so.  They were no better or worse leaders than those who felt they had been born with the gift I'm sure.  Since any wife would "choose" to take on the role, how can that be topping from the bottom (god I'm sick of that phrase)?   She could just as well have said no go away.  And so what if her submissive husband holds her hands and leads her in the beginning to discover what she will/could do on her own some time later?  Does that make your relationship dynamic any better than theirs?  I'm with PhD on this one.  Seduce away.  I was "seduced" by a magazine pic....would that it would have been by a man that I loved...(okay I was 14 and wasn't close to loving anyone but you get the idea).  Supersilious ideas exiting the train on the left at the next station please.  Real life ideas boarding on the right.



DiannaVesta -> RE: Submission & Married Men (8/16/2007 7:07:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NefertariReborn

Some are born great, some achieve greatness, others have greatness thrust upon them. I firmly believe that the either inherently dominant  or nothing argument is a fallacy.  History is littered with people who became leaders i.e. dominant because the situation they were in "forced" them to be so.  They were no better or worse leaders than those who felt they had been born with the gift I'm sure.  Since any wife would "choose" to take on the role, how can that be topping from the bottom (god I'm sick of that phrase)?   She could just as well have said no go away.  And so what if her submissive husband holds her hands and leads her in the beginning to discover what she will/could do on her own some time later?  Does that make your relationship dynamic any better than theirs?  I'm with PhD on this one.  Seduce away.  I was "seduced" by a magazine pic....would that it would have been by a man that I loved...(okay I was 14 and wasn't close to loving anyone but you get the idea).  Supersilious ideas exiting the train on the left at the next station please.  Real life ideas boarding on the right.


I really like you and each time I see your post feel a sensation far deeper then the here and now.

Ok, everyone.... I posted this topic on three boards and I'm amazed at the difference of opinions. I'm not going to post the direct links, you'll need to find said topic but they are at http://www.femsupreme.com/village/ which is my femdom forum and www.maxfisch.com/hang/ in the hang forum in the lobby. You just need to search for my name.

Anyhow I am flooded with post and email. I am so enjoying this topic and learning about people. I'll be back to repl,y some more.



thetammyjo -> RE: Submission & Married Men (8/16/2007 8:15:51 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Grlwithboy

I just find the "I figured my shit out in X way and so should everyone else" attitude I see on this issue really kind of alarming.

I figured out my shit too, making mistakes and hurting myself and others in the process, and eventually figuring it out. Just as the majority of people who have had to figure out their sexuality in their adulthood have done.

I'm where I'm at now. Other people are where they are at now. I'm not any better. I operate with disclosure in my relationships, but I can fathom places, times, people, and circumstances where disclosure is harder, MUCH harder, possibly not beneficial to everyone involved, and maybe forthcoming but not at this time.

Everyone gets to make their own mistakes. I'm just glad there weren't many people around eager to hang me for mine.




I think there is a great difference between judging and offering advice.

Perhaps some of us have gotten lost from the OP and gone into giving advice. For that I apologize.

Yes, we do all need to make our own mistakes but to try and reinvite the wheel over and over when one can get help from those with experience seems unnecessary to me. Look at people's experiences and then try some things that seem feasible.

My third post (#44) in this thread was where I got off track into giving advice. I hope I didn't say "do it this way" because I was trying to point out that there are not just two options here -- lie/cheat or get your partner to play with you. There are a bunch of options in between these two and yes, I personally only go for the ones that involve honesty with self and partners.



ElanSubdued -> RE: Submission & Married Men (8/16/2007 12:09:23 PM)

DiannaVesta,

A small sidetrack here...

quote:

The biggest problem with sub males is that they are so needy and selfish.  The training first teaches them not to be and to learn how to give pleasure to a woman rather only focusing on what they need.


I've encountered needy and selfish behavior in both genders and in dominants, switches, submissives, and vanilla folk alike.  Fortunately, I've also encountered many lovely and wonderfuly giving people of every BDSM persuasion.  In my  experiance, attributing needy/selfish characteristics specifically (and somewhat uniquely) to "submissive males" is a misleading stereotype.

ElanSubdued.



MISTRESSKUMA -> RE: Submission & Married Men (8/16/2007 1:10:10 PM)

ElanSubdued, are you familiar with UnderrGroundSea? I'm a fan of him and can tell you he shares similar views with you. But we are not bashing male submissives, just the married ones who do not want to serve and submit, but who want to be served instead. The ones that have it backwards That is all. <HUGS>

I'm just throwing this out there for comments: what if a man is married and everything in the marriage is wonderful, except the wife doesn't want to be a pleasure-type of woman and please his submissive tendencies? He should give those desires up? Yes, I believe he ought to. I think just about all married subs are cheating when they engage in BDSM activities outside their marriage. It is a shelfish activity and I for one have no problem with a lady that has zero tolerance for her cheating husband and his subby tendencies. I've been to many BDSM events and just about every married sub there had been unfaithful and I never have once did engage them- I guess thats my claim to fame. My first subby husband cheated on me during an event. We attended many events and he always wanted to engage other women doms and finally did when I was not around. I didn't think I would ever be able to put my guard down again. I have been leary to get involved again not because I think all men are like that but because I didn't think I had the judgement to weed out more like him...still not sure I do...however I do see when I look back at how I ignored so many red flags at events because I didn't have the confidence in my own judgement...I think I'm beginning to grow and am starting to be different in that respect now...I will try again. I'm very patient, and the wait will be worth it. Sorry this post probably is much too negative.

(Formerly MistressRajhi)



realtuffdom -> RE: Submission & Married Men (8/16/2007 1:52:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NefertariReborn

Some are born great, some achieve greatness, others have greatness thrust upon them.

And some of us are great because...well, we're just great!
quote:


I firmly believe that the either inherently dominant  or nothing argument is a fallacy.  History is littered with people who became leaders i.e. dominant because the situation they were in "forced" them to be so.  They were no better or worse leaders than those who felt they had been born with the gift I'm sure.  Since any wife would "choose" to take on the role, how can that be topping from the bottom (god I'm sick of that phrase)?   She could just as well have said no go away.  And so what if her submissive husband holds her hands and leads her in the beginning to discover what she will/could do on her own some time later?  Does that make your relationship dynamic any better than theirs?  I'm with PhD on this one.  Seduce away.  I was "seduced" by a magazine pic....would that it would have been by a man that I loved...(okay I was 14 and wasn't close to loving anyone but you get the idea).  Supersilious ideas exiting the train on the left at the next station please.  Real life ideas boarding on the right.


Due to the account I'm using to make this response, my usual responses are supposed to be ridiculous, so I'll apologize beforehand and just make my comment (pretend it's littlesarbonn and not realtuffdom...I'm just too lazy to sign out and sign back in again...besides, the littlesarbonn account is probably going to be closed in the next few days anyway).

A previous poster made an excellent point that I am going to come up in error concerning, and that's that the most judgmental people about marriage & cheating tend to be unmarried and divorced people, followed by those who are married and would never think about cheating as an option. And that's fine. I'm not married, nor have I ever been divorced, so I'm filling in that caveat beforehand just so I can make the points that I feel should be made in this thread. Usually, I don't like commenting on stuff like this here because everyone here seems to be of the mind that they know everything and can be really judgmental of those offering opinions and advice, but anyway....

First off, I can't imagine ever finding myself in the position where I would be cheating on my wife, if I was ever married. I can't imagine ever finding myself in the position where I would be cheating on someone I was dating, seeing or serving. Now, having said that, I've never been married. I know that when you become married, things definitely change and it is most definitely one of those dynamic types of relationships that are so different from my normal frame of reference that I can't guarantee what I would do in such similar circumstances based on how I feel right now. I would like to think I would do the right thing, but to be honest, until placed in that circumstance, I can't verify what I would end up doing.

What I CAN do, however, is minimize the chances of contributing to a potential problem should I ever be married. As such, I don't really date that often anyway. It's because I don't find vanilla relationships all that attractive or interesting. So, if I ever found myself involved with a woman with whom I was thinking marriage, I can't imagine myself not revealing my submissive tendencies and needs. But then, I've been involved with dominant women where I know I've kept things from them, such as particular fantasies, because I was scared to death of having her not be interested and then not interested in me. It's such a natural process with people that it can sneak up on you before you even realize it has happened. I ended a relationship (well, it was mutual) a short time ago because I realized that what we had between us was not what I was seeking, that I was seeking something a lot deeper bdsm-wise. I remember being lectured for "not coming clean" about these "needs" that I didn't even realize I had during our courtship process. But my fear was realized because the relationship DID end, and it didn't end because I kept this information from her and she found out, but because she wasn't interested in pursuing those "needs" with me. So, I can see how a person in a marriage might have such problems, and I really don't have the answer to what should be done. It's so easy to cast the net of "well, honesty is the only policy" but sometimes honesty can destroy the relationship, if it's that big an issue. I don't know that I would be good enough to come clean on my desires in such an environment where I feared the end of the marriage; I can imagine myself suppressing those desires for the rest of my life, but I also know how unhealthy that is as well.

So, having said all of that, I think it is important to keep in mind that not everything is as clean and dry as we'd like it to be. I still believe massively in honesty is the best policy, and I've been dumped several times because of it (and sometimes not even given a long enough relationship to be dumped as well), so there's that.



AAkasha -> RE: Submission & Married Men (8/16/2007 2:37:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy


One difference between you and others is that you're speaking from experience and you're married.

The most judgmental people about marrieds and marital behavior are the unmarried and the divorced.

My situation has kind of been like yours, backwards from marriage into poly making mistakes here and there always trying to strike a balance along the way.

My position is that the married person in the marriage is usually best positioned to understand what courses of action are best for everyone concerned.

I tend to be rather sympathetic towards marrieds, b/c I think marriage in the USA is a rather flawed institution.


When I was single, I used to get told "you only have opinions like that (on people who cheat)" because you are single. Wait until you are married.  I'm married now, and when I state my views, I get told, "Wait until you have been married more than 5 years and the honeymoon period wears off." I am past five years, and I still feel the same way, and people now say, "Wait until you are married 25 years then you can talk."  Whatever.

I think it might have to do with a lot of things; the thing that surprises me most is how much people *HIDE* when they get married.  Isn't this supposed to be someone who knows your core, naked self and all of the vulnerabilities?  It's also clear to me that people prefer to bail when it gets hard, or seek for "easier" solutions that might not require facing hard facts.   Realizing ten or fifteen years later that some kind of sexuality has to be realized is going to be a painful, uncomfortable process to go through with your partner -- but you married them, it's what you are supposed to do.

I think it's also a useless kind of debate because it all depends on what value people place on honesty in relationships, or how they treat their partner in general, and how they were raised to treat them, and how their parents treated each other.  There's all kind of behaviors I would never tolerate from a man I dated, and I walked away from them.  People have different ideals and different levels of what they feel is acceptable.

Regardless, I know I will be told my opinion doesn't matter, even though I am married, and have been married more than 5 years. I will check in when we pass 10 years.

Akasha



MistressTaboo -> RE: Submission & Married Men (8/16/2007 7:39:51 PM)

Where to start?
I'm married to my slave. We started off kinky and have only gone down hill from there. He actually introduced me to the scene...and what the whole world of BDSM is. When I met him I thougt I was just kinky and a switch. But I realized the sub/switch side was more just trying not to be what society deams a 'beach'. I will say I'm a huge fan of Elise Sutton...her how to seduce your wife/girlfriend helped me a lot. Helped me understand that it's ok to be the Domme, it's ok to be in charge.

Now I do play other men. I do have a hard and fast rule that I won't play married men without the permission of their wife. I have to chat with her and have her set his restrictions.  I've only had one married sub to agree to this. Since she's a sub she's ok with this.

I WILL help married men find ways to server within their marriage. I'll give them instructions on how to help their wife. How to be submissive to her without her knowing. And eventually introducing her to BDSM. Some take to it and some want to run for the hills...the other issue is the sub gets so excited that she didn't run away or think he's a freak that he overwhelms her and she gets turned off...

But I can't tell you how many times I've heard "I've talked to her about it and she said NO WAY. So once the kids are grown I plan to get divorced and find someone who will be more excepting to my kink." 

Honestly I think women should give it more of a try and worry less about what the world thinks of them.



cloudboy -> RE: Submission & Married Men (8/16/2007 10:12:50 PM)

You are misreading my post. Its not about right and wrong or whose opinion "matters." Its about the unmarried being the most judgmental about marrieds. I've culled this generalization from observation. The strictest monogamists and the most vehement hard-liners tend to be single. The relativists, I don't knowers, and sympathisers tend to be married in LTRs.

If I had to say why people in general are judgmental about marriage, its because they view the institution through the prism of "its supposed to be."

Rather than judge behavior or tell others what they are supposed to do, I prefer instead to understand their situation, and if possible, sympathise with it.

This particular desciption of marriage made a striking impression on me:

> Parents, teachers, and concerned adults all counsel against premature marriage. But they rarely speak the truth about marriage as it really is in modern middle class America. The truth as I see it is that contemporary marriage is a wretched institution. It spells the end of voluntary affection, of love freely given and joyously received. Beautiful romances are transmuted into dull marriages, and eventually the relationship becomes constricting, corrosive, grinding, and destructive. The beautiful love affair becomes a bitter contract.

The basic reason for this sad state of affairs is that marriage was not designed to bear the burdens now being asked of it by the urban American middle class. It is an institution that evolved over centuries to meet some very specific functional needs of a non industrial society. Romantic love was viewed as tragic, or merely irrelevant. Today it is the titillating prelude to domestic tragedy, or, perhaps more frequently, to domestic grotesqueries that are only pathetic.

Marriage was not designed as a mechanism for providing friendship, erotic experience, romantic love, personal fulfillment, continuous lay psychotherapy, or recreation. The Western European family was not designed to carry a lifelong load of highly emotional romantic freight. Given its present structure, it simply has to fail when asked to do so. The very idea of an irrevocable contract obligating the parties concerned to a lifetime of romantic effort is utterly absurd. <

Mervyn Cadwallader
Writing in THE ATLANTIC, 1966



SusanofO -> RE: Submission & Married Men (8/17/2007 2:20:36 AM)

I think what DiannaVesta is doing is a needed and desired service. She sounds like a responsible Domme to me, she didn't strike me at all as a superficial thinker, and it seems as if she takes her submissives needs for discretion into account, while at the same time helping them maybe incorporate some part of the BDSM desires into their marriages, if possible and-or practical.

People who oppose male submissives being married, while pursuing BDSM activity outside their marriages, sometimes fail to answer the question: What these men are supposed to do - if their wives just don't understand their BDSM desires, and -or have no desire to help fulfill them, and the men (or women, maybe, too) don't necessarily want a divorce? (except those that have proposed "open marriage" which makes sense to me)?

Remain celibate as far as fulfilling any BDSM desire for the rest of their entire married lives? That seems a heavy burden to place on someone who isn't really responsible for having those desires to begin with, IMO. I class it differently from someone who is seeking mere extra-marital sexual attention, I guess. Only because from what I hear from many male submissives I've read posts from here at CM - if many of their wives could fulfill their BDSM desires, they'd be thrilled. I get the disctinct impression it's not just about sex.

In fact, I'd class BDSM activity as distinctly different from pursing sexual activity outside of marriage (sans BDSM). Some may disagree, but I actually don't see the two (sex and BDSM) in the same way - and it's not just because one isn't (technically) having to include sexual intercourse.

I consider BDSM a pretty "specialized" kind of desire, whether it can be classed technically as a sexually-related desire, or not. Only about 10% of the general population is supposedly even interested in things related to BDSM.

Some may think this is all the more reason some men "should" be able to do without it, but I actually think a stronger argument could be made for pursuing it outside of a conventional "Vanilla" marriage than not. BDSM is can be very misunderstood, and even "scary" to many "Vanilla" spouses, which may very well make them less prone to want to understand it, perhaps - as opposed to "just" "regular Vanilla sex" (even with an unusual twist or two added). BDSM activity (and feeling fulfiiled by it) involves a  distinct and different mind-set than "Vanilla sex".

This might sound like hair-splitting, but I don't really think it is.

So, to get that desire fulfilled, where else are these men gonna go? What do they do? There are other reasons I think BDSM is very different from "Just sex", too. But that's a whole other discussion, perhaps, and possibly a little convoluted to relate directly to this topic (but maybe not).

-Susan 



SusanofO -> RE: Submission & Married Men (8/17/2007 3:49:27 AM)

Isn't expecting a submissive man to remain BDSM-celibate within a "Vanilla" marriage a little like asking a homosexual to pretend they are straight? If not, why are we using terms like "Vanilla" to begin with? I am not meaning to argue (or even really get into a heated debate) with anyone on this thread- it's just that I hear people say things all the time like: "I've always been this way, it's who I am" etc.

And since there are way more "Vanilla" than BDSMers, it makes sense to me some BDSMers are going to be married to "Vanilla" people almost by default, simply because there are so many more of them out there. So it makes sense to me that some would need to seek another outlet, at times, to fulfill their BDSM desires. I am leaving any morality judgment out of it, and it might seem obvious, but it's just an intellectual conclusion, is all.

- Susan



DiannaVesta -> RE: Submission & Married Men (8/17/2007 5:00:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

Isn't expecting a submissive man to remain BDSM-celibate within a "Vanilla" marriage a little like asking a homosexual to pretend they are straight? If not, why are we using terms like "Vanilla" to begin with? I am not meaning to argue (or even really get into a heated debate) with anyone on this thread- it's just that I hear people say things all the time like: "I've always been this way, it's who I am" etc.

And since there are way more "Vanilla" than BDSMers, it makes sense to me some BDSMers are going to be married to "Vanilla" people almost by default, simply because there are so many more of them out there. So it makes sense to me that some would need to seek another outlet, at times, to fulfill their BDSM desires. I am leaving any morality judgment out of it, it's just an intellectual conclusion, is all.

- Susan


Yes and no. We make choices through our lives based on the information we have at hand. Things change and our society has no prepared us to be tolerant of change and differences. Then again we should also be responsible for our actions when involving other human beings into our world. I just feel that if we keep an open mind, unselfish heart and we’re ok with changes we’ll be a more peaceful society.
 

 
I try to put myself in other people’s shoes and feel what they experience. There truly is no easy answer to this and every situation is different. I took what I saw as an opportunity to bring balance into a couples life. Is it cheating? Yes, I think it is but what are the true alternatives? I have not found any. This is not to say that I think married submissive men should go off and seek out a mistress/slave relationship just anywhere. I think a lot of responsible choices must be made and there must be rules to protect the marriage. If that man engages on this journey and finds that it’s really important to him and that it is affecting his marriage and NOT enhancing it, then he needs to let her go. I feel strongly about this. If he can’t give her what she needs for happiness then he needs to let her go find it elsewhere. So far I’ve had nothing but positive results but I am sure I will encounter adversity.
 
 



SusanofO -> RE: Submission & Married Men (8/17/2007 5:08:39 AM)

I appreciate what you have to say about this DiannaVesta, and I respect your opinion on it. I agree it is a complex area of consideration, and that every situation is an individual, different one. I agree with you about him letting his wife seek her happiness, too, if he cannot fill her needs. It's only fair.

- Susan



LadyPact -> RE: Submission & Married Men (8/17/2007 6:24:18 AM)

I was going to post these thoughts last night, and then thought better of it.  Now, after reading these last few posts, I am changing My mind again. 
 
I mentioned in My earlier comment on this thread that the bottom that I have been playing with is married.  What I didn't specify is that I am married also.  I didn't make a point of it before because, honestly, I think most of the regular people who post on these boards (especially this one) already know that.  I mention My husband quite often on the threads, talk about him often in email, and have My marital status listed on My profile.
 
It's been mentioned numberous times that My husband is fully aware of My interest and activities that I'll put under the umbrella of BDSM.  There are no secrets, no sneaking, no lies.  He's watched Me with My submissives, been in the audiance when I've had play partners, and fully accepts My need for this in My life.  He knows that I am happiest when I am in the lifestyle.  He is fully aware that I hope to collar a submissive again someday.  He understands that My dream is eventually to have a poly family. 
 
Often, when I tell people these things, the question that is asked is...... What if he didn't?  What if I were not fortunate enough to have a partner in life that wasn't accepting of these things that I want, and who I am?  What would I do then?
 
Sitting here, in the reflective mood that I'm in, I have to say honestly the same answer that I always give when asked these things.  I don't know.  I know what I would like to think is the answer for Myself.  The one that I find more honorable, according to My own belief system and values.  I really hope that is the path that I would take.  Might that be something that I would fail at?  Of course it's possible, but I would hope that I would do the right thing for Me, as well as for him.
 



subguyca2000 -> RE: Submission & Married Men (8/17/2007 10:48:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressTaboo

But I can't tell you how many times I've heard "I've talked to her about it and she said NO WAY. So once the kids are grown I plan to get divorced and find someone who will be more excepting to my kink." 



First off, I do not plan on doing that as that is the only part of our relationship that is not being fulfilled on my end.  But that is me and I think about the committment I have made.  Do I stop my BDSM desires?  Maybe later I will.  On the funny side, I can't afford a divorce.  Then she would really be torturing me.

Second off, I have a profile that seeks a domme and state in there that I am married.  I am upfront with it, but I do not expect to ever find someone that will agree to what I am seeking.  I am not stupid!!  But I try and I enjoy these forums.  But I will continue to see a professional female domme when I feel the need as I agree with SusanofO that BDSM and sex are different.



GuidingLite -> RE: Submission & Married Men (8/17/2007 5:22:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy


One difference between you and others is that you're speaking from experience and you're married.

The most judgmental people about marrieds and marital behavior are the unmarried and the divorced.

My situation has kind of been like yours, backwards from marriage into poly making mistakes here and there always trying to strike a balance along the way.

My position is that the married person in the marriage is usually best positioned to understand what courses of action are best for everyone concerned.

I tend to be rather sympathetic towards marrieds, b/c I think marriage in the USA is a rather flawed institution.


When I was single, I used to get told "you only have opinions like that (on people who cheat)" because you are single. Wait until you are married.  I'm married now, and when I state my views, I get told, "Wait until you have been married more than 5 years and the honeymoon period wears off." I am past five years, and I still feel the same way, and people now say, "Wait until you are married 25 years then you can talk."  Whatever.

I think it might have to do with a lot of things; the thing that surprises me most is how much people *HIDE* when they get married.  Isn't this supposed to be someone who knows your core, naked self and all of the vulnerabilities?  It's also clear to me that people prefer to bail when it gets hard, or seek for "easier" solutions that might not require facing hard facts.   Realizing ten or fifteen years later that some kind of sexuality has to be realized is going to be a painful, uncomfortable process to go through with your partner -- but you married them, it's what you are supposed to do.

I think it's also a useless kind of debate because it all depends on what value people place on honesty in relationships, or how they treat their partner in general, and how they were raised to treat them, and how their parents treated each other.  There's all kind of behaviors I would never tolerate from a man I dated, and I walked away from them.  People have different ideals and different levels of what they feel is acceptable.

Regardless, I know I will be told my opinion doesn't matter, even though I am married, and have been married more than 5 years. I will check in when we pass 10 years.

Akasha



Okkkkkkkkkkk cloud hairleggedboy, you best quit wanking that lump in your skirt  bitch wannabe and gets yourself a clue  Akasha been around alot longer than your hairy butt manhole, no joke, for real and gets more than your sorry azzzz.  pay attention you just been schooled so kiss the ring. holla mary.



AAkasha -> RE: Submission & Married Men (8/17/2007 5:28:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy



If I had to say why people in general are judgmental about marriage, its because they view the institution through the prism of "its supposed to be."




Is it too much to expect that to adult people would figure out what THEY believe marriage should be before entering into it?    They don't even do that a lot of the time.   Failed marriages are often the result of failed people and failed communication - they didn't do their work ahead of time.  As for kinky failed marriage  -- the most common thing I see is submissive men "settling" for a vanilla woman because they felt it was the best they could do.


Akasha



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