RE: Submission & Married Men (Full Version)

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Zephyr46 -> RE: Submission & Married Men (8/17/2007 6:03:49 PM)

I have been following this thread for a while now and have read many comments/viewpoints.  Each one is worthy of considering.  I can only relate to my situation and experience as I make the following comments.  Being Married and submissive is not necessarily a massive roadblock. I am a married submissive. My wife is submissive as well and marvelously kinky. We discovered this hidden aspect about ourselves well into our marriage. We also discovered through experimentation that neither of us could successfully top the other.  It simply could not get us into the mindset we each needed to arrive at subspace.  Would I divorce her because of this so I could pursue my submissive side as a single male? Absolutely not.  I love this lady and always will. Instead we have agreed to keep communication open yet seek dominant folks as an extended family to help us get our respective needs met.

My wife has been more successful than I in accomplishing this. 

Recently , while I was not really searching for a Domme, I made aquaintance with a lovely Lady who is not only Domme but is also married... he is Her submissive. Through discussions of their own they agreed to search for a submissive male... preferably married himself and in a healthy marriage. They were not looking to break up their marriage with a single person nor are they looking to break up my marriage but instead finding a way that all can get their needs met in an amicable fashion. Presently the introduction has progressed to discussion and negotiation between all four of us in a true polyamorous relationship.  Never before have I had a barrier to my being collared turn into an asset and I am quite hopeful with the present pace things will continue to make progress.

All I can say is that it seems to be working but may not necessarily be right for anyone else.  It is a case of personal choice I feel.  Whatever floats your boat, so to speak.



beryfarmer -> RE: Submission & Married Men (8/17/2007 6:26:37 PM)

i can sympathyze with a lot of what chukra is saying:

"First, let me say that if i had had the opportunity to know about BDSM several years ago before i was married i would not have chosen to walk the path i have walked. However, i always had the fantasies, but never the words to put to them to describe them (BDSM). After 25 years of marriage i discovered the words, talked to Oothers Wwho knew what i was talking about, and began dabbling in it. i knew i had found me. i had talked about these desires of mine with my wife early in my marriage, but she refused to accept or pursue them. In fact, a few years ago she discovered some of my toys and threw them away rather then seeing how she could use them to her advantage. She is very closed to anythinig other than tradition sex "

two kids and a strong sex drive and someonw who doesnt even want to cuddle or even allow me to pleasure her because she is too sensitive.   Have not been intimate with any one as of yet but it is hard.  It is hard not going to a pro domme.

I love our family but part of me is not being fulfilled.  Am I selfish--perhaps.  Easy for people out sie to say.  It is very dounting to say to ones partners all what one may be into.  esp when they are so naive about the world of sex.  To be repudiated and looked at with disgust--that is the fear.




beryfarmer -> RE: Submission & Married Men (8/17/2007 6:32:17 PM)

remember one thing--the internet has made things much more open to meet people and learn things.  How could one 15-20 years ago meet people or be exposed to these things?  That is why some guys are in the situation they may be in and were not able to make a knowledgeable choice.




cloudboy -> RE: Submission & Married Men (8/17/2007 6:43:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha

Is it too much to expect that to adult people would figure out what THEY believe marriage should be before entering into it? They don't even do that a lot of the time. Failed marriages are often the result.......


Well, what it should be and what it becomes often vary considerably. Also, having fixed expectations in the beginning of a relationship could arguably be ruinous down the road.

I think we could compose quite a laundry list of reasons why marriages fail.

I think its helpful for marrieds to have connectness along with flexibility of mind, body, and soul. Zephyr46's post is a good example of that. I liked too how he understatedly said, "Instead we have agreed to keep communication open yet seek dominant folks as an extended family to help us get our respective needs met. My wife has been more successful than I in accomplishing this. "

Funny, I know exactly what he's talking about. For women, its shooting fish in a barrel where the extra-marital market is concerned. A man, on the other hand, has a long exacting search ahead of him.



AAkasha -> RE: Submission & Married Men (8/17/2007 6:47:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

Funny, I know exactly what he's talking about. For women, its shooting fish in a barrel where the extra-marital market is concerned. A man, on the other hand, has a long exacting search ahead of him.


This is a tired and misleading statement.  Sure, a woman with *NO STANDARDS* can go out and get laid or hook up with ease; a woman who actually cares about some sort of respect and connection can no easier find additional partners than men can.  It's the same reason that in a community "full of single male subs" there are still many single dominant women "looking" -- just because a large number of men are open, willing and happy to get sexually involved with a woman - -- any woman -- does not mean they are desirable.  If a woman wants a connection of some sort, she doesn't just have to spread her legs and the guy who takes her up on it will be the one.

Akasha



SusanofO -> RE: Submission & Married Men (8/17/2007 7:22:08 PM)

Aakasha: I understand what you meant by people taking their needs into consideration before marriage. I agree with you that nobody should intentionally set out to deceive someone else - that would be wrong. I completely agree with you on that, and I respect your opinion, too (I do). I think you are an awesome Lady.

But, people can lie (or at least maybe are not honest with themselves, maybe) My husband told me he would adopt UMs and also he seemed pretty interested in sex before we got married. After 4 years, all of that was gone, and I had nothing to do with it (I really, honestly didn't. I had not changed at all, really. But he changed almost overnight. I had been too stupid and lonely to realize he had an "agenda"). Had I known he would change that drastically after the wedding, I would never have married him. What he really wanted, was a maid and a cook who lived with him full-time, not a partner.

Some people don't even realize that a venue exists for them to live out their BDSM inclinations until early middle age, or else maybe they married thinking their BDSM urges would go away if they just got married (maybe because they think having them is wrong, or that they will just go away). By the time a few years go by, they might well be married with maybe even UMs. I see little alternative for these men, but to maybe talk with their spouse and see if they can work something out or even (God forbid) see a Mistress without their spouse's knowledge. 

I know that sounds awful, and yes it is dishonest, and I am not trying to sound like a bad person, but I really just don't think a sex related kind of satisfaction is worth trashing a marriage over, if it's otherwise working. 

I know many might disagree, but it just seems to be a kind of drastic solution, if people get along with eachother otherwise. Maybe I wouldn't be saying that if my sister was not a divorce attorney - and for some people, divorce probably is the best solution, but she has told me some real horror stories of what can happen to spouses and their UMs after a divorce.  That is only my opinion though, and you know what people say about opinions...anyway, thanks for listening to my two cents.

- Susan



cloudboy -> RE: Submission & Married Men (8/17/2007 9:08:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

Funny, I know exactly what he's talking about. For women, its shooting fish in a barrel where the extra-marital market is concerned. A man, on the other hand, has a long exacting search ahead of him.


This is a tired and misleading statement. Sure, a woman with *NO STANDARDS* can go out and get laid or hook up with ease; a woman who actually cares about some sort of respect and connection can no easier find additional partners than men can.

Akasha



Can't say I agree with you, especially in the extra-marital market. In the singles market, things are certainly more even, if not tilted in favor of men. My wife or Mistress could get high quality dates fast. For me it would take months or maybe even years. Women may have more to sort through, but they're not walking through the desert with an empty canteen and a sliver of faith in their back pocket.



MsSonnetMarwood -> RE: Submission & Married Men (8/18/2007 5:31:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

Funny, I know exactly what he's talking about. For women, its shooting fish in a barrel where the extra-marital market is concerned. A man, on the other hand, has a long exacting search ahead of him.


This is a tired and misleading statement. Sure, a woman with *NO STANDARDS* can go out and get laid or hook up with ease; a woman who actually cares about some sort of respect and connection can no easier find additional partners than men can.

Akasha



Can't say I agree with you, especially in the extra-marital market. In the singles market, things are certainly more even, if not tilted in favor of men. My wife or Mistress could get high quality dates fast. For me it would take months or maybe even years. Women may have more to sort through, but they're not walking through the desert with an empty canteen and a sliver of faith in their back pocket.


I'd have to agree with cloudboy here.  It's not that hard to find a vanilla lover at all, if that's what a woman choses to do.  Something long term is harder, but a couple dates or a relationship that lasts a few months?  Not at all.  

In the married men market, I can see where a woman would really have her pick.



bobipanti -> RE: Submission & Married Men (8/18/2007 8:01:23 AM)

I am a male submissive and cheer the workings of DiannaVesta. She has an insight into certain needs of submissive men who may want to explore and build on their inner femininity to create a more whole person.



MzAri -> RE: Submission & Married Men (8/18/2007 8:09:06 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MsSonnetMarwood

I'd have to agree with cloudboy here.  It's not that hard to find a vanilla lover at all, if that's what a woman choses to do.  Something long term is harder, but a couple dates or a relationship that lasts a few months?  Not at all.  

In the married men market, I can see where a woman would really have her pick.


I think this truly depends on where you live.  In my city there are far more females than males, as tends to be the east coast trend.  I have a very difficult time finding appealing partners, vanilla or otherwise.  On the west coast, there are more men than women, so doubtless it would be easier to find a partner there.  This is why I have plans to move westward as soon as I can.
Certainly, if I wanted to bed someone who was 200lbs overweight, or married and lying to his wife, or had the personality of a pebble, I could likely get laid easily, but since I want someone who is reasonably intelligent and has an inkling of what personal hygeine means, it makes the quest considerably more of a challenge.



chuckra -> RE: Submission & Married Men (8/18/2007 9:28:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

chuckra I just wanted to say that there are alternatives to having a spouse who does BDSM with you and not telling your spouse if you are exploring BDSM.

Maybe I'm just a big poly freak but I really think that if someone's spouse can't offer them things that make them happy, they should then open up the relationship to allow them each to find what is missing or lacking with others. The degree to which you tell each other details will vary between couples but at least this way no one is lying or hiding things.

Perhaps you all ready have this agreement but I didn't notice that in your first post in this thread (which is what I'm replying to). Just another route to consider.


Thank You for Your suggestion, Ma'am. In a perfect world (he he), i would agree with You and i wish i had that kind of relationship with my wife. However, i don't - never have and most likely never will. It is sad, but true. As i said in my original post, i am sure You can tell that the relationship has been rocky and often a rollar coaster ride.

submissively, chuck



thetammyjo -> RE: Submission & Married Men (8/18/2007 9:31:20 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: beryfarmer

remember one thing--the internet has made things much more open to meet people and learn things. How could one 15-20 years ago meet people or be exposed to these things? That is why some guys are in the situation they may be in and were not able to make a knowledgeable choice.




Even 15-20 years ago there were Internet groups.

There have been scenes especially in larger cities for over 50 years now, not just gay men either though they were more public I suppose. Porn magazines and books that showed or discussed things we might call part of BDSM are several hundred years old. Paying someone to do "deviate sexual activities" goes back thousands of years.

Regardless of whether or not you have a name for your desires I don't think that is an excuse for not being able to talk about them with your spouse.

Perhaps you are fighting traditions or attitudes about sexuality though I would hope that your spouse even then would be someone you could talk with. This can be a hurdle to over come but not an absolute reason you couldn't try to talk with them.

Of course I have modern view of marriage here as a union of two people who choose to be with each other. I can't say I grok the idea of choosing someone whom I couldn't talk to about any thing in the world. Tom and I may not completely understand each other all the time (do I ever understand myself 100% of the time?) but we know we can talk to each other it just may take work. Same thing for Fox or anyone else I'm with this intimately too.



chuckra -> RE: Submission & Married Men (8/18/2007 9:33:07 AM)

i agree, Ms AAkasha, and the reason Dommes are so attractive to me is because they do have standards. i do not always agree with their standards, but at least they have them.

submissively, chuck



thetammyjo -> RE: Submission & Married Men (8/18/2007 9:37:57 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: chuckra

quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

chuckra I just wanted to say that there are alternatives to having a spouse who does BDSM with you and not telling your spouse if you are exploring BDSM.

Maybe I'm just a big poly freak but I really think that if someone's spouse can't offer them things that make them happy, they should then open up the relationship to allow them each to find what is missing or lacking with others. The degree to which you tell each other details will vary between couples but at least this way no one is lying or hiding things.

Perhaps you all ready have this agreement but I didn't notice that in your first post in this thread (which is what I'm replying to). Just another route to consider.


Thank You for Your suggestion, Ma'am. In a perfect world (he he), i would agree with You and i wish i had that kind of relationship with my wife. However, i don't - never have and most likely never will. It is sad, but true. As i said in my original post, i am sure You can tell that the relationship has been rocky and often a rollar coaster ride.

submissively, chuck


I'm not trying to pick on you, Chuck, and you may not want to answer this on this thread because frankly what I'm about to ask is really something to get you thinking (any one else too) and moving toward success.

When we wish for something the first step toward fulfilling that wish is to figure out what we can do to make it happen -- this only works when we try to be completely honest and objective and this can be difficult especially when the wish seems so far awhile.

What have you done to make your wish come true?

What do you lack to make that wish come true?

What can you do to address these things you lack?

How can you start addressing these things today?

Keep in mind that we aren't talking big major announcement or ultimatum. This is a process that begins in the individual first then expands to anyone else they are involved with. One needs to do risk assessments along the way and reflect on what is possible to make the best choices as one goes.



chuckra -> RE: Submission & Married Men (8/18/2007 9:43:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: beryfarmer

i can sympathyze with a lot of what chukra is saying:

"First, let me say that if i had had the opportunity to know about BDSM several years ago before i was married i would not have chosen to walk the path i have walked. However, i always had the fantasies, but never the words to put to them to describe them (BDSM). After 25 years of marriage i discovered the words, talked to Oothers Wwho knew what i was talking about, and began dabbling in it. i knew i had found me. i had talked about these desires of mine with my wife early in my marriage, but she refused to accept or pursue them. In fact, a few years ago she discovered some of my toys and threw them away rather then seeing how she could use them to her advantage. She is very closed to anythinig other than tradition sex "

two kids and a strong sex drive and someonw who doesnt even want to cuddle or even allow me to pleasure her because she is too sensitive.   Have not been intimate with any one as of yet but it is hard.  It is hard not going to a pro domme.

I love our family but part of me is not being fulfilled.  Am I selfish--perhaps.  Easy for people out sie to say.  It is very dounting to say to ones partners all what one may be into.  esp when they are so naive about the world of sex.  To be repudiated and looked at with disgust--that is the fear.




Nicely said, beryfarmer, and it rings very true with me. It has taken years, but i am now aware that our sexuality is part of who we are - which is something i believe younger generations are more aware of than i was at there age. "If i had only known,,,,," is true.

Should we live with regrets? Well, in our search for ourself i believe we should not live with regrets. There may be difficult times and there maybe some hurt involved, but ultimately in growing and developng through our lives i think it will be worth it. One quote i just love is "Life is not about finding Yyourself, it is about creating Yyourself." If changing Yourself does hurt another, as long as it is done without malice and for the good of one's self, then the pain that does take place will be worth it.

submissively, chuck



chuckra -> RE: Submission & Married Men (8/18/2007 9:45:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo


quote:

ORIGINAL: chuckra

quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

chuckra I just wanted to say that there are alternatives to having a spouse who does BDSM with you and not telling your spouse if you are exploring BDSM.

Maybe I'm just a big poly freak but I really think that if someone's spouse can't offer them things that make them happy, they should then open up the relationship to allow them each to find what is missing or lacking with others. The degree to which you tell each other details will vary between couples but at least this way no one is lying or hiding things.

Perhaps you all ready have this agreement but I didn't notice that in your first post in this thread (which is what I'm replying to). Just another route to consider.


Thank You for Your suggestion, Ma'am. In a perfect world (he he), i would agree with You and i wish i had that kind of relationship with my wife. However, i don't - never have and most likely never will. It is sad, but true. As i said in my original post, i am sure You can tell that the relationship has been rocky and often a rollar coaster ride.

submissively, chuck


I'm not trying to pick on you, Chuck, and you may not want to answer this on this thread because frankly what I'm about to ask is really something to get you thinking (any one else too) and moving toward success.

When we wish for something the first step toward fulfilling that wish is to figure out what we can do to make it happen -- this only works when we try to be completely honest and objective and this can be difficult especially when the wish seems so far awhile.

What have you done to make your wish come true?

What do you lack to make that wish come true?

What can you do to address these things you lack?

How can you start addressing these things today?

Keep in mind that we aren't talking big major announcement or ultimatum. This is a process that begins in the individual first then expands to anyone else they are involved with. One needs to do risk assessments along the way and reflect on what is possible to make the best choices as one goes.


Would You like me to answer that in a personal message to You, Ma'am?

submissively, chuck



QueenTofME -> RE: Submission & Married Men (8/18/2007 1:32:03 PM)

I can't tell you how many married men beg me to let them be who they are...to accept them as men with their genuine unfulfilled submissive needs. 

They have asked their wives, they have encouraged, they have treated her like gold with her slightest Domme reaction.  She can't go far.

Not all women are made to be Dommes.  Many think it is unmanly for a man to want to lose control, to be submissive...and can't handle that they married one...put their head in the sand.  Most of the men don't leave for kids (or a commitment obligation)...who can fault them for that. 

I am in conflict.  I have never cheated, ever, if we had an understanding that we were monogamous...but I didn't need then what I need now.  If I were married now and my husband wouldn't accept me for the needs I have discovered....I couldn't stay.  I am a new woman now with my power.

If this, albeit limited, time and expereince can save the marriage...and he does not want to leave the wife and 'destroy the marriage'....is it so wrong to help fuel this need?  I absolutely believe the best choice is for her to know, for her to agree to let him complete his needs...but most people who don't get it, don't get it.  I would feel different if this were something she was capable of/willing to do (like vanilla sex)...and he just wanted variety...but I believe the need is deep and inescapably who they are.





SusanofO -> RE: Submission & Married Men (8/18/2007 2:56:16 PM)

I can think of a way to end the conflict. Just go with what your heart tells you to do. What would you do if you didn't know this person very well? Would you act any differently? Maybe that's not the best way to judge but it's one way, anyway.

I think people can decide what is right for themselves to do, regardless of what the other person might be telling them is right or not (or what the "rest of the world" may be telling them, or not).

If you do have empathy for people in particular situations (or even just one of them, in particular), I think that can make a very valuable difference in their lives - and I also think empathy you may have for someone can trump a lot of other concerns, in otherwise somewhat murky situations (but that's just me, and a lot of folks may disagree, which is fine). I think it is a very valuable quality to possess - I think it's  right up there with having good judgment.

And I think everyone has a right to decide what is best for themsleves in this kind of situation - if for no other reason than that all of these situations are different - because different people are living them - each with their own circumstances. I am not against people making moral decisions - I guess I am against fitting everyone's situation into one single box, and saying they are all the same -because they are just not.

I don't think it's valid for people to judge arrangements they have no part of whatsoever, though (which isn't the situation to which you refer). I think the only people who have a right to judge those arrangements are the people participating in them.

I am not "blowing your question off" - I am saying I think you have a right to make this decision on your own - only having to consider how you and the other people involved will be affected.  Advice can be helpful, and you'll get it - and if I were you I'd evaluate it very carefully - because I think nothing compares to knowing the circumstances of everyone involved in an intimate way, when it comes to these kinds of situations, and making judgments about them. I wish you the best of luck.[:)]

- Susan



thetammyjo -> RE: Submission & Married Men (8/18/2007 5:00:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: chuckra

quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo


I'm not trying to pick on you, Chuck, and you may not want to answer this on this thread because frankly what I'm about to ask is really something to get you thinking (any one else too) and moving toward success.

When we wish for something the first step toward fulfilling that wish is to figure out what we can do to make it happen -- this only works when we try to be completely honest and objective and this can be difficult especially when the wish seems so far awhile.

What have you done to make your wish come true?

What do you lack to make that wish come true?

What can you do to address these things you lack?

How can you start addressing these things today?

Keep in mind that we aren't talking big major announcement or ultimatum. This is a process that begins in the individual first then expands to anyone else they are involved with. One needs to do risk assessments along the way and reflect on what is possible to make the best choices as one goes.


Would You like me to answer that in a personal message to You, Ma'am?

submissively, chuck


No, no, not necessary. Just questions to think about.

These are questions I think about and have thought about myself, not just in relationship to BDSM but to other things in my life. I find they help me be more realistic about things and I hope that helps me make better decisions.




cj49230 -> RE: Submission & Married Men (8/19/2007 1:56:03 PM)

I am not one to post, but this topic has been a real interest to me. I am a married man, and also enjoy being submissive. My wife and I have discussed this over the years so many times. She is also submissive, and has no problems what so ever seeing her male dominants. She told me several times to go to alt.com, or other sites to try to find someone. I have been a member of different sites for at least 6 or 7 years, answered several ads, and always get the same answers. "You're married, and I don't play with married men, or I am looking for someone younger." You know how frustrating and how lost and empty it makes a person feel?

My wife even went so far as to post a couple of ads herself to try to find someone for me. She said she couldn't understand why it would be so hard to find someone, but she soon found out.  (That was like 3 years ago.) She only recieved two replies, and they were both from males.

I have tried so hard in the past to find a female dominant here in the lower Michigan area. I even changed my profile on the sites I am on to switch, because I do at times enjoy being dominant myself, or being a top.  I did a few years ago have a female Mistress and I truly loved it, but then she moved away, and I have not been able to find anyone since.  I have even told my wife that I might as well give up, but she says to keep trying and eventually it will happen.

I have been completely honest with everyone, and my wife has even offered to talk to them if I found someone. We are totally honest with each other, and don't hold anything back.  It just gets so discouraging though. You would think that after 6 or 7 years I would have found someone. I have recieved a couple of replies saying they wished I lived closer because they were like three or four states away.

I guess I just can not understand why so many are against a married man, especially if the wife is aware of everything, and is ok with it. You would think that being married, he would be safer, and he has much more to loose.

Submission is just something I enjoy. I am totally honest, respectable, and an all around decent and caring guy, but being older, (56) and being married  makes a big difference. 

A little over a year ago, we bought this new home, and then my wife got transfered with her job, so now, we live about 3 1/2 hours away from each other. We get to see each other every other weekend. She is constantly asking if I have had any luck yet, but the answer is always the same.  I really don't know what to think any more, but it sure is hurtful.

Chuck



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